Topic: Playing BBC (AAC) radio streams (Read 16530 times)

jdk · « **on:** February 08, 2013, 06:02:00 pm »

This query has been raised at least a couple of times before, here and here but the problem still exists in MC18 -- has anyone come up with an easy way to play the BBC's high-quality (AAC) radio streams?

The essential problem is that when you put in the permanent BBC URL (e.g. BBC Radio 3 HD is: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r3_aaclca.pls), the servers translate this into a temporary session link, which is what gets saved as the link in MC18. So just adding the link in a normal playlist (via "File Menu -> Open URL" is useless.

The best solution currently, as pointed out in the first link above, is to use the Connected Media option (Go to Audio -> Connected Media, right-click and choose Add Website).

The problem with that, as is also pointed out in that thread, is that you cannot bypass the dialog box that pops up when you use Connected Media links. Selecting "keep using this answer" only applies to the current session, it doesn't get remembered when you close Media Center. So the whole process of using the BBC links becomes rather clumsy. Any help appreciated.

I realise there are other BBC radio links which work in the normal manner, but the AAC feeds are worth the trouble -- the Radio 3 feed is 320kbps, the other stations are 128kbps.

jdk · « **Reply #1 on:** February 16, 2013, 06:36:31 pm »

AndyU · « **Reply #2 on:** February 17, 2013, 01:18:08 pm »

I'd appreciate an answer to this too .. Logitech Media Server handles the BBC Radio 3 HD stream effortlessly, and the whole BBC "Listen again", but I'd prefer to be exclusively MC.

Supersnake · « **Reply #3 on:** February 17, 2013, 06:01:41 pm »

Here is a setup routine that I created two years ago, employ it for your BBC 3 stream as well as for any other stream.

1. File > Open URL > Enter URL of streaming file: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r3_aaclca.pls
I have the Show web media options when opening to allow recording and more check box unchecked.

2. Click OK to start playing the URL

3. While that URL stream is playing immediately left click on Playing Now in the left tree.

4. A new window will open and you will see the Playing Now square-shaped-green-colored icon (with a white arrow inside) pointing to your now playing URL. Your item will be in bold type and named "No Title".

5. Right Click on the item and in the drop down menu follow the path: Send to > Playlist > New Playlist

6. Return to the left tree and left click on Playlists, in the drop down menu you will see your New Playlist item that you created.

7. Now Tag your new playlist. May I recommend that you give it the Album name Web Radio. I also gave my Web Radio album a distinguished looking icon.

You can now close MC 18 and be confident that you can readily locate and replay your BBC URL item again - as well as any other URL that you have added into your Web Radio album. To do so you will go to the left tree and under Audio you will see Albums.

Next, left click on Albums and look for your Web Radio album. Hover your mouse over your Web Radio icon and you will see Play or Play | File depending on whether or not you have more than one item in your Web Radio album. Locate your URL in the Album display, you will be able to recognize it by identifying it under the Filename column.

--> Highlight it and press F2 to rename it to BBC 3.

FYI I have opened and closed MC-18 multiple times today, each time that I selected BBC 3 from within my Web Radio album it launched and streamed.

Enjoy

Note to developers: For some unknown reason it seems that one cannot bypass the New Playlist route and simply tag the BBC 3 item and expect BBC 3 to sustain replay. Why the "New Playlist" maneuver was required is a puzzle.

csimon · « **Reply #4 on:** February 18, 2013, 05:47:41 pm »

That's magic! Thank you! I've been wondering for along time how to get radio to be part of my library and browseable just like an ordinary album. Haven't tried it yet in DLNA, Web and Theater views but it certainly works in Standard view.

jdk · « **Reply #5 on:** February 18, 2013, 06:15:20 pm »

Supersnake -- thank you for taking the time to give such detailed advice. I tried your solution, and at first it was successful. I could close and re-open MC18 and the BBC AAC stations would still play.

But I decided to wait 24 hours before replying here. I have just re-opened MC18 after leaving it closed for 24 hours, and the BBC AAC stations refuse to play back. I just get a dialog box that says: "Something went wrong with playback". Other radio stations play normally.

Supersnake, your solution still seems only to save the temporary session links. Once the session ends, the stations won't play. For me at any rate.

Can we expect the MC18 developers to comment on this, from a technical viewpoint? I also use Winamp and it handles the BBC AAC stations without difficulty. That's because Winamp retains the permanent link as the station link. So Winamp starts a new session each time you click on the station. I don't know why MC18 doesn't do the same.

csimon · « **Reply #6 on:** February 18, 2013, 06:37:22 pm »

Oh! Perhaps I spoke too soon! Will try mine again tomorrow.

Supersnake · « **Reply #7 on:** February 18, 2013, 11:25:19 pm »

You're welcome, am glad to be of help.

Am experiencing no problems with replays over a two day period. My suggestion for you jdk would be to delete what you have so far created and try the setup again, or if you like setup your radio stream access in the Media Center Car Radio -see my next post.

Supersnake · « **Reply #8 on:** February 19, 2013, 12:56:48 am »

As an alternative you can configure Media Center to access your radio streams via the Car Radio.

Get something you like playing. Then, while in the Playing Now screen, hold down one of the 12 available car radio buttons to save the playlist as a preset. Be sure to hold down the button for a few seconds, just as you would do with a real car radio.

Your Car Radio stations will also be listed in the Left tree under: Playlists > Car Radio

marko · « **Reply #9 on:** February 19, 2013, 01:06:02 am »

The aac stream links won't work for me. I pass the url to MC, show web media options unchecked, and it spawns a blank web page, followed by an offer to open or save the file. If I choose open, I have to point it at Media Center 18.exe and nowt happens, if I choose save, it starts building a tempoary file...

Do I need to install that Orban thing again, or should MC just play these out of the box?

Also, is 54kbps aac better than 128kbps asf?

Supersnake · « **Reply #10 on:** February 19, 2013, 01:35:04 am »

Quote from: marko on February 19, 2013, 01:06:02 am

The aac stream links won't work for me. I pass the url to MC, show web media options unchecked, and it spawns a blank web page, followed by an offer to open or save the file. If I choose open, I have to point it at Media Center 18.exe and nowt happens, if I choose save, it starts building a tempoary file...

Do I need to install that Orban thing again, or should MC just play these out of the box?

Also, is 54kbps aac better than 128kbps asf?

I believe that MC should play your stream out of the box if it has a "playlist-like extension". I may be wrong but I believe that your problem may not have been with the fact that your URL target is an AAC file, but rather the problem was how the URL was syntaxed.

Look at the extension for the problematic URL for which MC took you to a web page and see if that gives you a clue.
I've listed three URLs below and highlighted their extensions. The first two in the list should stream out of the MC box, whereas the third URL will bring you to a web page. See if the first two perform okay for you.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r3_aaclca.pls
http://sc-tcl.1.fm:8010/
http://listen.radionomy.com/Misterium

marko · « **Reply #11 on:** February 19, 2013, 01:55:57 am »

Yup, I know all about that. I've only been playing with the Radio 3 aac stream here.

When entering the pls link in MC, MC tells me it's "Opening url", then launches firefox with:
bbcmedia.ic.llnwd.net/stream/bbcmedia_lc1_radio3_p?s=1361252861&e=1361267261&h=5703d10f86c86845a4b350621df310a9
in the address bar, and firefox offers me the options attached. If I choose open, or save, it starts downloading as shown.

The asf links work fine for me, I was just curious as to whether or not I could hear any improvement via aac.

aac is listed twice under file types in MC, both set to Automatic.

Supersnake · « **Reply #12 on:** February 19, 2013, 03:15:09 am »

Quote from: marko on February 19, 2013, 01:55:57 am

Yup, I know all about that. I've only been playing with the Radio 3 aac stream here.

When entering the pls link in MC, MC tells me it's "Opening url", then launches firefox with:
bbcmedia.ic.llnwd.net/stream/bbcmedia_lc1_radio3_p?s=1361252861&e=1361267261&h=5703d10f86c86845a4b350621df310a9
in the address bar, and firefox offers me the options attached. If I choose open, or save, it starts downloading as shown.

Copy this file path into MC's Open URL and see what MC does with it.
http://bbcmedia.ic.llnwd.net/stream/bbcmedia_intl_lc_radio3_p?s=1361245214&e=1361259614&h=8515c8cf908ff4d0f6bcd7592b3b34fa

That is the file path to the same file that http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/ is currently accessing in its online radio player.
My MC and Foobar played it. If your MC insists on opening a web browser then perhaps we should be comparing MC settings.

jdk · « **Reply #13 on:** February 19, 2013, 07:07:33 am »

Quote from: Supersnake on February 18, 2013, 11:25:19 pm

My suggestion for you jdk would be to delete what you have so far created and try the setup again, or if you like setup your radio stream access in the Media Center Car Radio -see my next post.

Thanks Supersnake, I'll have another go. But my question for the MC18 developers remains open -- why does MC18 not retain the BBC's permanent URLs as the station links?

pluto · « **Reply #14 on:** February 19, 2013, 08:58:09 am »

Quote from: jdk on February 08, 2013, 06:02:00 pm

This query has been raised at least a couple of times before, here and here but the problem still exists in MC18 -- has anyone come up with an easy way to play the BBC's high-quality (AAC) radio streams?

I have solved this problem in a rather simplistic way. I made the attached web page in Word. Add it to "connected media" i.e. C:\Users\Pluto\Documents\BBC Radio links 3.mht

MC will then open the page using the Internet Explorer component. Click on the station you want and voila!

csimon · « **Reply #15 on:** February 19, 2013, 12:22:07 pm »

Yeah, I'm afraid mine has now stopped working today. The filename saved in the tags is the session URL, not the original URL. I tried editing the filename tag to put the original back but I still get "Something went wrong with playback".

Supersnake · « **Reply #16 on:** February 19, 2013, 01:50:46 pm »

Day 03: Album access. BBC 3 continues to respond. The file name is
http://bbcmedia.ic.llnwd.net/stream/bbcmedia_intl_lc_radio3_p?s=1361132639&e=1361147039&h=acadd1437548665334ab786e8bdc7ad2

Day 02: Car Radio access. BBC 3 continues to respond. The file name is
http://bbcmedia.ic.llnwd.net/stream/bbcmedia_intl_lc_radio3_p?s=1361245214&e=1361259614&h=8515c8cf908ff4d0f6bcd7592b3b34fa

jdk · « **Reply #17 on:** February 19, 2013, 04:57:00 pm »

Pluto -- your workaround is clever. But it doesn't solve the problem that you cannot bypass the dialog box that pops up when you use Connected Media links (see my first post). And it is a workaround. That shouldn't be necessary.

Supersnake -- very curious. You seem to be the exception to the rule. And as your screengrabs show, your tags only contain the temporary (session) URLs.

Your sessions are obviously maintained for a long period. I can only guess at the reason. Do you ever shut down your PC and/or MC18 for a long period (say 12-24 hours)? I do. Maybe everyone else who is having a problem does as well, and therefore their sessions are terminated.

Whatever the reason, there is obviously a problem. It's not just the people in this thread. As I stated in the first post, there have been two previous threads on this issue.

I'm a bit surprised the MC support staff haven't commented on this. I'm fairly new to MC, but the forums appear to be the main support system, and I made the original post ten days ago.

If it was an obscure issue, or if I was the only person facing the problem, I could understand a delay in receiving support. But I would suggest that being able to play streaming audio is a core feature for a modern paid-for media player, and if free apps can play the BBC AAC streams flawlessly, I would expect MC18 to be able to do so as well. Workarounds shouldn't be necessary.

Supersnake · « **Reply #18 on:** February 19, 2013, 06:59:55 pm »

Quote from: jdk on February 19, 2013, 04:57:00 pm

Supersnake -- very curious. You seem to be the exception to the rule. And as your screengrabs show, your tags only contain the temporary (session) URLs.

Your sessions are obviously maintained for a long period. I can only guess at the reason. Do you ever shut down your PC and/or MC18 for a long period (say 12-24 hours)? I do. Maybe everyone else who is having a problem does as well, and therefore their sessions are terminated.

Whatever the reason, there is obviously a problem. It's not just the people in this thread. As I stated in the first post, there have been two previous threads on this issue.

My PC and/or MC18 are both shut down for about 12 hours each day. I really don't know what is responsible for my good luck. I guess that we could take the brute force approach and compare all of my MC settings to everyone else's settings but that sounds too arduous, and one could make the argument that doing so shouldn't be necessary.

One particular action I do practice is - that whenever I delete an item from MC, and I am given the choice of 'deleting it from a listing' or 'deleting it entirely from my computer' - I will choose the latter provided it is safe to do so. Am presuming that my doing this will remove any remnant registry items that may clash with a future reimplementation of the item. I would be happy if everyone else were also able to maintain replay of their streams.

pluto · « **Reply #19 on:** February 20, 2013, 03:19:21 am »

Quote from: jdk on February 08, 2013, 06:02:00 pm

The problem with that, as is also pointed out in that thread, is that you cannot bypass the dialog box that pops up when you use Connected Media links. Selecting "keep using this answer" only applies to the current session, it doesn't get remembered when you close Media Center. So the whole process of using the BBC links becomes rather clumsy. Any help appreciated.

I agree. An option to prevent this dialog

from ever darkening your doorstep again would be useful. "Keep using this answer" could, perhaps, retain its stickiness from session to session.

Matt, what do you think?

jdk · « **Reply #20 on:** February 23, 2013, 05:27:21 pm »

Is there any other way to get technical support, apart from this forum? I've looked at the support page but the forum seems to be the only method. If that's true, I would have expected some input from the JRiver team on this question by now (it's been two weeks since I made the original post). Is there a support email address?

JimH · « **Reply #21 on:** February 23, 2013, 06:19:35 pm »

This is it, but we can't help you on such a specific question. Sorry. The Internet is a very big world and MC is just one tool.

jdk · « **Reply #22 on:** February 23, 2013, 06:38:19 pm »

Well, I'm new here, so I hesitate instantly to take on the role of grumpy old man, but, I have registered MC18, so....

Firstly, the whole point of support is to give answers to specific questions, so long as they are relevant to the product. My question is about radio streaming. It's not obscure. Others have also expressed an interest.

As I said above:

Quote from: jdk on February 19, 2013, 04:57:00 pm

If it was an obscure issue, or if I was the only person facing the problem, I could understand a delay in receiving support. But I would suggest that being able to play streaming audio is a core feature for a modern paid-for media player, and if free apps can play the BBC AAC streams flawlessly, I would expect MC18 to be able to do so as well. Workarounds shouldn't be necessary.

There have been two other threads on this issue, as I stated in the first post. I am not alone in requesting help on this issue.

Winamp simply saves the permanent URL, and starts a new session each time it is accessed. Why can't MC18 do the same?

JimH · « **Reply #23 on:** February 23, 2013, 07:42:01 pm »

Quote from: jdk on February 23, 2013, 06:38:19 pm

Well, I'm new here, so I hesitate instantly to take on the role of grumpy old man ...

That's very kind of you. Thanks. We are a little swamped this weekend with the launch of the MC Mac version. I'm sorry if I was grumpy, but I'm old enough to have the right once in a while.

Your question is reasonable, but we just don't have time right now to find out the cause and try to find a work around. You did get some good advice above.

Supersnake · « **Reply #24 on:** February 24, 2013, 01:17:22 am »

Quote from: jdk on February 23, 2013, 06:38:19 pm

Winamp simply saves the permanent URL, and starts a new session each time it is accessed. Why can't MC18 do the same?

JDK,
If you want to be able to permanently access BBC3 through MC18.

Enter and Save either of the below BBC3 links
I have been accessing them both for 7 days and they launch each time.

http://bbcmedia.ic.llnwd.net/stream/bbcmedia_intl_lc_radio3_p?s=1361132639&e=1361147039&h=acadd1437548665334ab786e8bdc7ad2

or

http://bbcmedia.ic.llnwd.net/stream/bbcmedia_intl_lc_radio3_p?s=1361245214&e=1361259614&h=8515c8cf908ff4d0f6bcd7592b3b34fa

EDIT: Feb 24, 2013 New negative developments:
The above two BBC Radio 3 links are now delivering AAC 56 kbps not 320 kbps AAC high-quality streams.

Quote from: jdk on February 08, 2013, 06:02:00 pm

The essential problem is that when you put in the permanent BBC URL (e.g. BBC Radio 3 HD is: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r3_aaclca.pls), the servers translate this into a temporary session link, which is what gets saved as the link in MC18. So just adding the link in a normal playlist (via "File Menu -> Open URL" is useless.

Likewise, JDK's link to BBC Radio 3 HD ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r3_aaclca.pls)
is now also delivering AAC 56 kbps and not 320 kbps AAC high-quality streams.

--> Please see reply #27 for continuation

jdk · « **Reply #25 on:** February 24, 2013, 12:42:12 pm »

Thanks again for your help, Supersnake, but the problem with your links is that they are for the BBC's low-quality (56k) feeds. Perhaps that's why your session links don't expire so quickly, or at all.

The high-quality feeds (128-320k) seem to be the ones that cause the problem.

pluto · « **Reply #26 on:** February 24, 2013, 03:30:07 pm »

Surely, the answer lies in post #19 above - it would be very easy to make the check box in question sticky from session to session - job done!

Supersnake · « **Reply #27 on:** February 24, 2013, 03:53:14 pm »

Pluto and JDK, new negative developments have evolved.

My above two BBC Radio 3 links are now delivering AAC 56 kbps, not 320 kbps AAC high-quality streams.

Likewise, JDK's link to BBC Radio 3 HD ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r3_aaclca.pls)
is now also delivering AAC 56 kbps and not 320 kbps AAC high-quality streams.

Those who reside in the UK are exempted from the down sampling.
The phenomena of BBC Radio down sampling 320 kbps streams into 56 kbps is a long standing action for people living outside of the UK.

--> Pluto, could you please recheck your URL and see if it is streaming 320 kbps? Thanks

===============================================================================================
References: Two 2011 discussions regarding users outside of UK being down sampled.
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?87614-BBC-Radio-3-HD-outside-UK&p=631165#post631165
http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/showthread.php?1258-World-s-highest-quality-on-line-classical-music-feed-%28BBC-Radio-3%29

pluto · « **Reply #28 on:** February 25, 2013, 05:48:24 am »

Quote from: Supersnake on February 24, 2013, 03:53:14 pm

--> Pluto, could you please recheck your URL and see if it is streaming 320 kbps?

I'm getting 320kbps, but I live in the UK!

I think this was just a matter of time. Once the AAC service went beyond the trial phase, I think they were more or less obliged to do this.

jdk · « **Reply #29 on:** February 25, 2013, 08:18:26 am »

As far as I know, the BBC reduced the quality of the AAC feeds outside the UK shortly after the trial ended. Using BBC iPlayer, the high-bitrate service has always been locked to the UK, but the direct URLs worked outside the UK for some time.

Sometimes people "get lucky" (or use a VPN, or whatever), but most people outside the UK now have to live with 56k AAC+ streams from the BBC. I'm in the UK, so I get the 320k stream.

Supersnake · « **Reply #30 on:** February 25, 2013, 09:35:24 am »

Quote from: jdk on February 25, 2013, 08:18:26 am

As far as I know, the BBC reduced the quality of the AAC feeds outside the UK shortly after the trial ended. Using BBC iPlayer, the high-bitrate service has always been locked to the UK, but the direct URLs worked outside the UK for some time.

Sometimes people "get lucky" (or use a VPN, or whatever), but most people outside the UK now have to live with 56k AAC+ streams from the BBC. I'm in the UK, so I get the 320k stream.

Knowing then that you, like Pluto - are in the UK, while I am not - you and Pluto should find these two little experiments interesting.

1. Launch the BBC Radio 3 in house player at http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/player/bbc_radio_three
Select the HI Bandwith option then the LO option, listen and assess if you can hear a difference in fidelity; both sound the same to me.

2. I sniffed the following FlashMedia http file out of the transmissions. Am curious to know if your browser will directly launch the address to it, I cannot.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/emp/releases/chromeless/revisions/1_1_3_1037407/1_1_3_1037407_emp.swf

Thanks

jdk · « **Reply #31 on:** February 25, 2013, 10:10:23 am »

Quote from: Supersnake on February 25, 2013, 09:35:24 am

Knowing then that you, like Pluto - are in the UK, while I am not - you and Pluto should find these two little experiments interesting.

1. Launch the BBC Radio 3 in house player at http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/player/bbc_radio_three
Select the HI Bandwith option then the LO option, listen and assess if you can hear a difference in fidelity; both sound the same to me.

2. I sniffed the following FlashMedia http file out of the transmissions. Am curious to know if your browser will directly launch the address to it, I cannot.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/emp/releases/chromeless/revisions/1_1_3_1037407/1_1_3_1037407_emp.swf

Re comparing the streams -- in the end, this is impossible unless you're willing to take the trouble to do a proper double-blind test. And I haven't tried that in a while. The last time I did that (with ordinary audio files) I found that compressed audio became transparent (i.e. I couldn't tell the difference) anywhere between 128-192 VBR MP3, depending on the music. AAC is generally better than MP3 at low bit rates, and my ears are older, so who knows, 56k might be fine for me. But for complex orchestral music, I have my doubts (presuming you're putting the feed through a high-quality audio system).

I don't spend too much time worrying about "audiophile" quality any more (I wasted enough time on that in my youth), but I do always use the best available quality, only because doing otherwise would be silly. And from a technical point of view (analysed to death elsewhere on the web), the BBC Radio3 320k feed is as good as it gets. And there are apparently teenagers who can hear the compression in 320k MP3 files, so the whole compression debate is not nonsense (those teenagers are apparently valued employees in recording studios).

No, I can't play the flash link in my browsers. I've also tried opening the URL in Foobar2000 and Winamp. No luck.

AndyU · « **Reply #32 on:** February 27, 2013, 09:27:53 am »

There's some very good information about the technical details of BBC Radio 3s HD feeds on the links below.

"You could make a strong case to say that of all the digital platforms used by BBC Radio, the internet delivers the best quality" says the Head of Technology for BBC Audio and Music on one of them... when you read how 'direct' the feed is, and how it avoids all the compression necessary for FM broadcasts, it's not surprising how highly the stream is regarded. Maybe when the mac release has sorted itself out and those nice guys at MC have their feet up, they'll revisit this issue!

Link 1

Link 2

Link 3

Link 4

INTERACT FORUM

Author Topic: Playing BBC (AAC) radio streams (Read 16530 times)