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Author Topic: glynor's it  (Read 9005 times)

JimH

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glynor's it
« on: September 22, 2014, 06:56:44 pm »

Ed graciously agreed to act as product manager for JRiver's TV and to help Yaobing improve it.

I have his home phone number if you need it.
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astromo

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2014, 07:17:25 pm »

 :o
Wow! That's great news.

I think the pair will deliver more than the 2 halves combined.

Some good things in store.
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glynor

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2014, 07:27:16 pm »

Doh.  You ratted me out.

I guess I have to get to work then.  ;D
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JustinChase

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2014, 07:36:42 pm »

I'm looking forward to this.  Glynor has posted a few times in the past about his needs/wants vis-a-vi TV in MC, and I thought he was pretty spot-on about most everything.  Hopefully his input can 'whip it into shape' for the rest of us.

Thanks Glynor for stepping up here.
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imugli

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2014, 08:32:01 pm »

Awesome news!

I'm sure this will bring TV up to the level that the rest of MC is at.

Now for TV on Linux :-D

RoderickGI

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2014, 08:41:36 pm »

Excellent news. Yaobing has been most helpful as I work through trying to improve my TV experience, particularly in the EPG area. But it never hurts to put more resources into the mix.

I still have a few issues to sort out as well, so this is a very timely development. :D
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
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glynor

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2014, 09:38:01 pm »

I'll be asking for some help as we go along.

Our first target, however, is initial setup and configuration, because I think (and Jim and Yaobing agree) that this is probably the biggest pain-point right now.  If you can't get it set up, or struggle through the whole process, it turns off so many people that no one uses the rest to even get to experience other features.

Which is, largely, what has happened to me.

So, my initial goals could be briefly summarized as:
1. Make it as easy as is possible to set up for basic purposes.  MC should make most of these choices for you.
2. Make "advanced" configuration details something you have to do separately (in Tools > Options).
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jgreen

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2014, 10:08:27 pm »

Great news, JimH, and thank you, Glynor!

If I understand Glynor's mission statement, I agree completely.  I'd much rather get "something" simply, and then tell MC what it is I'm not getting.  Ultimately, I just want to turn on the TV.
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kensn

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2014, 10:49:52 pm »

This is great. been trying to get the Wife to turn from the dark side.... but something tells me this is going to help things.

Ken
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astromo

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2014, 11:45:47 pm »

This is great. been trying to get the Wife to turn from the dark side.... but something tells me this is going to help things.

Ken

Well, mine is clued up to connecting to the TV recorded on the remote machine and is a definite thumbs down to the popular offering from Windows.

Before memory fades, the biggest issue I had with putting MC to work as my "TV Solution" was getting a functioning EPG. I've made comment before that the lack of global standards makes for moving multiple targets, such that there's a real challenge to achieve a one size fits all, point and shoot solution.

To provide a voice of support for MC's TV capability as it currently stands, one of the best aspects about the TV function are the quick, committed and insightful responses that Yaobing provides. I'd love to see him juggle because he does a great job keeping multiple balls in the air.

glynor has shown his technical strengths multiple times, along with a solid appreciation of the "user experience". That's why the inevitable joining of 2 halves to make a greater whole is great to see. Thankfully, there's a really solid platform to polish up because as the old saying goes, "you can't polish a [.. something that's not polishable ..]"
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InflatableMouse

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2014, 07:58:56 am »

Great news! Congrats Ed!
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gvanbrunt

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2014, 04:40:40 pm »

Congrats. Perfect man for the job.

I also agree with his statements completely. I'm no slouch when it comes to computers and I gave up on MC TV as it just took too much time to get each part working and maintained. It was just easier to use the set top box. It's easier with tuners, but if you throw STB's into the mix it can be painful. Or at least it was when I last did it 1.5 years ago.
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adlelare

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2014, 05:27:55 pm »

glynor posted this:

"Make it as easy as is possible to set up for basic purposes.  MC should make most of these choices for you."

Could you please explain what that exactly means and/or layout some sort of development plan?? TIA

As someone who upgraded to MC 20 for improved TV capability this is a good thing.  Maybe you could start a few various threads asking for specific issues/improvements us users would like.  Maybe LiveTV, EPG, PVRing, Transcoding, Streaming, Gizmo integration, InetTV, Interface, etc. would be good threads.

PS i have no idea whether i am a "basic" or "intermediate" or "advanced" user of "MCTV"...There are lots of various improvements but the current biggest problem i have is this: I PVR about 5 hours of OTA TV/day using MCTV, but as 3 hours are cartoons for my granddaugther, these i then convert from huge honking file (2.5gbs/half hour) to MC's h.264 720p (down to about 0.5gb) but this conversion process fails with regular regularity, for reasons i don't know and many times various recordings won't fully convert.. so is this a "basic" issue or something more.

anyways good to have more eyes and hands working on MCTV as i ditched WMC in favour of MCTV. regards
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kensn

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2014, 05:37:09 pm »

Well, mine is clued up to connecting to the TV recorded on the remote machine and is a definite thumbs down to the popular offering from Windows.


My wife has used WMC (Dark Side) exclusively for her TV viewing for years now. It is all OTA content. No cable boxes here. She is very comfortable recording multiple items and navagation. Just want to get everything in JRiver...
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JustinChase

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2014, 05:53:51 pm »

My wife has used WMC (Dark Side) exclusively for her TV viewing for years now. It is all OTA content. No cable boxes here. She is very comfortable recording multiple items and navagation. Just want to get everything in JRiver...

I would suggest this is a good 'jumping off' point for MC.  Meaning:sit down and use WMC for an hour or 2, see how it works, what's good, what's bad, then try to use that as a 'minimum usability' standard.  I used it for a couple years, and it was MUCH easier to setup and use than MC.

If I can throw in a request/suggestion.  I'd like to see MC maintain/keep the aspect ratio of any playing video.  You can see this in action in WMC.  Play any video, then try to resize using only one side, and you'll see it maintains aspect ratio.  This is a really nice feature once you see it in action.
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kensn

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2014, 05:57:05 pm »

I would suggest this is a good 'jumping off' point for MC.  

Tried that 2 nights ago.. Went into the guide to show her how nice everything was now....  4 channels were there because the EPG data was not up to date ::)...  FAIL! :-[ (my Fault, not MCs)

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JimH

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2014, 05:59:20 pm »

I would suggest this is a good 'jumping off' point for MC.  Meaning:sit down and use WMC for an hour or 2, see how it works, what's good, what's bad, then try to use that as a 'minimum usability' standard.  I used it for a couple years, and it was MUCH easier to setup and use than MC.

If I can throw in a request/suggestion.  I'd like to see MC maintain/keep the aspect ratio of any playing video.  You can see this in action in WMC.  Play any video, then try to resize using only one side, and you'll see it maintains aspect ratio.  This is a really nice feature once you see it in action.
You may know that you can use the mouse wheel to zoom in.
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JustinChase

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2014, 06:07:01 pm »

Tried that 2 nights ago.. Went into the guide to show her how nice everything was now....  4 channels were there because the EPG data was not up to date ::)...  FAIL! :-[ (my Fault, not MCs)

Sorry, I meant that WMC is a good thing for MC to use as a starting point (meaning MC needs to improve to get to what WMC does now).

You may know that you can use the mouse wheel to zoom in.

Yeah, but zooming isn't what I mean, or want to do.  I mean that if you have MC playing in a detached window (or a resizeable display view), and you widen it with the left edge of the widow, it only widens left to right, leaving black bars on the right and left.  If you do this in WMC, it enlarges the entire window on all sides, keeping the window from showing any black bars.

Try it in WMC to see how nice this is.
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astromo

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2014, 06:42:44 pm »

Well, mine is clued up to connecting to the TV recorded on the remote machine and is a definite thumbs down to the popular offering from Windows.
My wife has used WMC (Dark Side) exclusively for her TV viewing for years now. It is all OTA content. No cable boxes here. She is very comfortable recording multiple items and navagation. Just want to get everything in JRiver...
I would suggest this is a good 'jumping off' point for MC.  Meaning:sit down and use WMC for an hour or 2, see how it works, what's good, what's bad, then try to use that as a 'minimum usability' standard.  I used it for a couple years, and it was MUCH easier to setup and use than MC.

That's pretty well where we started and in parallel I was setting up digital music delivery off the back of MC. Then, a little later, I realised MC could do more than simply audio. Then I got determined and decided to go to for a 1 platform deal across the board (although VLC is still around for testing). As I mentioned previously, being a non-US user, the biggest hurdle was the TV EPG setup. Fortunately, I had support for that plan and we've been pretty well satisfied ever since.
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Castius

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2014, 12:00:28 am »

Great news!!

I just setup my HDHome run last weekend.
For the most part setup was much easier than the last time it did this. With a OTA antenna.
But after that trying to setup MC to feel like watching TV looks daunting.

WMC might be a good example. But i would also look at google TV.
It's different than WMC. In that it makes GoogleTV a remote for the cable box.
However the user experience was much better than WMC.

Google primetime ui is so much more enjoyable than the usual epg.
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jmone

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2014, 05:21:27 am »

Ed graciously agreed to act as product manager for JRiver's TV and to help Yaobing improve it.

I have his home phone number if you need it.

Good stuff Ed!  I keep checking my e-mails to see if JimH wants me to champion the Home Intercom but for some reason it has not yet arrived!  ;D
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gvanbrunt

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2014, 12:13:38 pm »

Good stuff Ed!  I keep checking my e-mails to see if JimH wants me to champion the Home Intercom but for some reason it has not yet arrived!  ;D

Intercom again. I suggest Jim give you the appointment. The job should be located in a very remote portion of the globe with no internet access.... and somewhere that doesn't deliver Chik Ns...
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Hendrik

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2014, 02:05:14 pm »

The job should be located in a very remote portion of the globe

Thats ok, he already lives in Australia. ;)
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rudyrednose

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2014, 07:16:03 pm »

Thank you guys, this is great news.
Yaobing is solid and Glynor's technical saavy has been shown time and time again.

Synergy, what a wonderful word  :)
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glynor

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2014, 01:43:06 am »

and somewhere that doesn't deliver Chik Ns...

In Nathan's defense, they started it.  He just took it to its logical conclusion.  They should really have just been glad the chіcks didn't arrive with tiny rubber boots and feather boas.

The thread over on the Mac board reminded me of this old thread tonight and I got a good laugh.  For the record, I was not "in on it" all those 7 1/2 years ago.  In fact, I clearly remember reading that thread (on my HTPC from the couch) and being confused and amazed (and impressed) by that moment.  I asked for something crazy and huge, and Matt replies 31 minutes later and says, yeah, next build you get this crazy new amazingness that does way more than you asked for.  That's why my initial reply was all like "well what about these edge cases and whatnot".  I thought there had to be some kind of catch or thing he hadn't thought of... (We did eventually get our wildcards, of course, and more with RegEx.)  Now, it wasn't totally out of the blue, of course.  It was a somewhat obvious problem and we'd discussed it before, but... Still.
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glynor

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2014, 01:54:23 am »

Could you please explain what that exactly means and/or layout some sort of development plan?? TIA

As someone who upgraded to MC 20 for improved TV capability this is a good thing.  Maybe you could start a few various threads asking for specific issues/improvements us users would like.  Maybe LiveTV, EPG, PVRing, Transcoding, Streaming, Gizmo integration, InetTV, Interface, etc. would be good threads.

Not really, actually.

We're focusing on the initial setup process right now, and by extension, that will impact the configuration process (though that will probably be a later step).  We might break things.

But, we've got to focus on one thing at a time and not try to revolutionize everything at once.  Its a living machine.  That's about all I can say about that, and what I said before.
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glynor

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2014, 01:57:34 am »

WMC might be a good example. But i would also look at google TV.
It's different than WMC. In that it makes GoogleTV a remote for the cable box.
However the user experience was much better than WMC.

I do intend to research the way some other popular systems do it.  I have thorough experience with SageTV and the old, long-dead BeyondTV.  I've never used WMC, though, or any of the other more recent popular systems (as I've been wanting to switch from SageTV to MC).  I'll probably set up WMC using my system (after a thorough backup) if I can, but actually, since you all asked...

I'd like some volunteers!

If you have a nice setup working with:
* Windows Media Center
* NextPVR
* elgato eyetv
* Or any other similar-caliber software

And you'd be willing to nuke your setup and walk me though recreating it via a TeamViewer remote desktop session or whatever, please make a backup first and then send me a PM.

I'm not sure how I can test out a GoogleTV, unless someone can do that for me and film it or something.  Google's new thing (the "PVR" part of the TV service) was made by the developers from Sage, though, so I have some idea of their mentality.  Of course, that's not really the same and it isn't all the same people, just some of them.
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astromo

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2014, 03:19:46 am »

I'd like some volunteers!

Love to help but I nuked Windows 7 and WMC/MCE yonks ago.

And I'm on Win8.1 and wasn't about to pay the extra for MCE (especially when it was part of the deal previously - why pay extra when there's a better alternative to hand?).
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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2014, 06:57:05 am »

I haven't got win7 anymore but there are a lot of win media centre videos on you tube detailing tuner set up etc here's some links. Generally speaking win7 Mc was much more automated to set up tuners, TV guide etc. Everything was controlled via 10ft ui also multiple tuner types could be set up in the 10ft ui

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrUeMxGtvns

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2NQHsULj8c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZboJT3ea_Ik

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6cHPF4h4Ok
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Sandy B Ridge

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2014, 08:02:05 am »

Since you are rethinking TV setup from the ground up it would be worth considering integrating EPG collector. It is open source with the source code available. The dev is happy for anyone to do whatever with it.

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astromo

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2014, 08:21:59 am »

Since you are rethinking TV setup from the ground up it would be worth considering integrating EPG collector. It is open source with the source code available. The dev is happy for anyone to do whatever with it.

Smashing idea.
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gvanbrunt

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2014, 10:57:37 am »

One change you can probably make quick is the long standing bug of the the channel scanning wizard not resizing properly. For example under the view menu set zoom to 175%. Then open the wizard. You can't see the buttons etc at the bottom as they are off the page.
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adlelare

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2014, 12:13:15 pm »

I do intend to research the way some other popular systems do it.  I have thorough experience with SageTV and the old, long-dead BeyondTV.  I've never used WMC, though, or any of the other more recent popular systems (as I've been wanting to switch from SageTV to MC).  I'll probably set up WMC using my system (after a thorough backup) if I can, but actually, since you all asked...

I'd like some volunteers!

If you have a nice setup working with:
* Windows Media Center
* NextPVR
* elgato eyetv
* Or any other similar-caliber software

And you'd be willing to nuke your setup and walk me though recreating it via a TeamViewer remote desktop session or whatever, please make a backup first and then send me a PM.

I'm not sure how I can test out a GoogleTV, unless someone can do that for me and film it or something.  Google's new thing (the "PVR" part of the TV service) was made by the developers from Sage, though, so I have some idea of their mentality.  Of course, that's not really the same and it isn't all the same people, just some of them.

please don't take this the wrong way, but more of a pointing out of the obvious...in some other thread some customer was requesting help with JRiver and of course he got some "use the forum" read the "wiki" frame your question better, etc. and i and some others suggested that JRiver should create a number of how to install videos (i posted my experience with implementing XBMC largely based on youtube videos)...so i had to chuckle, when you asked for volunteers to help you and what you posted completey validates what i long believed JRiver should do...

but back to WMC and NextPVR, i have implemented both don't use now (use MCTV) and WMC takes only a few minutes to set up (pay mrsofty, download, install, pick your tuner(s), scan for EPG (its genres do have pretty colours), and view or PVR in its proprietary format, structure, etc.) and NextPVR is about the same...but the simplicity in implementation reflects the basic limitations....
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rudyrednose

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2014, 12:25:37 pm »

adlelare, for WMC you forget the hoops M$ has us canadians jump through  :o
Basically, in their infinite wisdom, there is no OTA on WMC for canadians if you do not go through tweaks documented on the web...

I never used WMC and went straight to JR OTA as another PC could not be an extender, only XBoxes (for off-the-shelf WMC) ...

Cheers !
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JustinChase

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2014, 12:54:36 pm »

I do intend to research the way some other popular systems do it.  I have thorough experience with SageTV and the old, long-dead BeyondTV.  I've never used WMC, though, or any of the other more recent popular systems (as I've been wanting to switch from SageTV to MC).  I'll probably set up WMC using my system (after a thorough backup) if I can, but actually, since you all asked...

I'd like some volunteers!

If you have a nice setup working with:
* Windows Media Center
* NextPVR
* elgato eyetv
* Or any other similar-caliber software

And you'd be willing to nuke your setup and walk me though recreating it via a TeamViewer remote desktop session or whatever, please make a backup first and then send me a PM.

I'm not sure how I can test out a GoogleTV, unless someone can do that for me and film it or something.  Google's new thing (the "PVR" part of the TV service) was made by the developers from Sage, though, so I have some idea of their mentality.  Of course, that's not really the same and it isn't all the same people, just some of them.

Might I suggest you try to setup WMC (and the others) without any pre-provided knowledge, so you can see what the average, uninformed (ignorant) person has to do to get these other solutions going, with no help.  I think that will help you gauge better the areas for improvement with MC.

I setup WMC a couple years ago, without doing any research before-hand, and I don't think it even took me 10 minutes, maybe even less than 5, and I could watch, record, etc without any real trouble.

I think this is the 'standard' to which MC should hold itself.  It should be at least as easy as WMC for the ignorant person to setup.

Video demonstrations and so forth are nice, but not needing them is/would be even better.
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glynor

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2014, 12:58:19 pm »

I agree Justin. But it'll be hard to set all of them up myself. I don't own WMC for example and am on Win8
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"Some cultures are defined by their relationship to cheese."

Visit me on the Interweb Thingie: http://glynor.com/

fitbrit

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2014, 01:48:32 pm »

Good stuff Ed!  I keep checking my e-mails to see if JimH wants me to champion the Home Intercom but for some reason it has not yet arrived!  ;D

Bah.
Tired and busted: Intercom
New Hotness: Intercom 3D
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JustinChase

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2014, 01:48:51 pm »

I understand.  It was just a suggestion on how to better gauge the effort required to get other systems setup.

I know you can download a windows7 ISO and use it for 30 days (I think) before it really starts nagging you to register.

Windows 7 64-bit Home Premium X64 English

I assume you already have a Virtual Machine setup, but in case not, here is one I've used...

VirtualBox

But again, it was just an idea.  I'm positive you've got plenty of great ideas for improving MC without looking at the others.  I look forward to watching how MC improves over time.

Thanks again for stepping up to this challenge.
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adlelare

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2014, 01:59:23 pm »

rudy, well you could if you wanted too spend a lifetime crapping on mrsoftie ;D but...i've gone from a F.R.E.D. to a mediaPC in what a couple of decades (my first "laptop" was an IBM honker size of mom's singer sewing machine case run off two 4.25 inch floppy drives and a 4 inch green screen probably cost $6K was what a 086 with IBM Dos (286 was like universe jump in power at the time) but i could sit on my balcony and work so life was good.. so mrsoftie has been good to us all.. but for all EPG stuff i use either or both postal codes or zip codes that are as close to the CDN-US border as i can and get pretty much all stations EPG (i use both with MCTV) it think with WMC i use us postal code 14303 (a block from Niagara Falls i think or DT Buffalo)..but EOD WMC was reasonably acceptable to me, as i could get it into XBMC, etc. but it is both limited and mrsoftie compromised.. cheers.
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rudyrednose

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2014, 02:57:17 pm »

Quote
my first "laptop" was an IBM honker size of mom's singer sewing machine case
This ?


I dreamed of having one, was a student at the time  ;D

Sorry guys, back to topic...
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adlelare

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2014, 03:17:39 pm »

ROTFLMAO..you mean IBM made more than one of those things!!!! and kids now scream at anything more than .25 inch wide...no video card, no sound, no colour, no internet, no wireless, no bluetooth, no .flac (and no 24/96 or 32 bit or), no mpeg, no HDD or SSD, no ram, no printer, no touch screen, no wheels ( ;D, just strong arm) and just big assed bright green dots, PC DOS and Lotus 1.0..but styling and privileged for sure..... so postal code or zip code as long as i can get EPG data....but i will be trying zap2 because if i understand the constant MCTV popup without season and episode we can't get much TV info.  the way we can for movies... regards
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JimH

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2014, 07:10:59 pm »

That's a Compaq, and it was very desirable at the time.  It was a very successful company for a few years.  Funded by Ben Rosen and others.  It was a big deal.
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JimH

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2014, 07:25:32 pm »

Might I suggest you try to setup WMC (and the others) without any pre-provided knowledge, so you can see what the average, uninformed (ignorant) person has to do to get these other solutions going, with no help.  I think that will help you gauge better the areas for improvement with MC.

I setup WMC a couple years ago, without doing any research before-hand, and I don't think it even took me 10 minutes, maybe even less than 5, and I could watch, record, etc without any real trouble.

I think this is the 'standard' to which MC should hold itself.  It should be at least as easy as WMC for the ignorant person to setup.
I think we agree.  It's just a question of how we get there.

Thanks everyone for helping Yaobing and glynor.
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RoderickGI

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2014, 07:50:30 pm »

The two difficult things in setting up a TV recording applications are;
1. Scanning all channels from all sources (OTA, Cable, SAT) and getting them into the software so that channel changes and watching TV  is possible.
2. Sourcing and getting an EPG into the system to enable viewing of the guide, changing channels based on the guide, and selecting programs to record.

The value add then comes from;
3. Series recording, with series link type functionality, rather than just searching by program name, which may be inconsistent in the EPG data. Adding information about the program and storing it as metadata for use in searches, image lookups, and other value added functionality. Search for programs by actor, director, genre, year, format, unwatched, season and episode, etc. Make suggestions based on viewing habits. Take it one level higher, with Xbox like functionality recognise who is sitting in front of the TV and customise the experience for them!

The first item is hard, and a moving target, because of all the different hardware, connection and control methods (set top boxes, USB tuners, satellite, IPTV, internet viewing based on sites, etc.), but at least there are standards for all of that. Well, if the hardware follows them!

The second item is and always will be a can of worms. Different countries, regions, laws, the standards are limited and there is a lot of proprietary stuff used to add functionality. The XMLTV standard is amazingly simple, and limited, while still being flexible. I think we should expect EPG to be difficult for some people in some regions, always. After all, most of the EPG solutions outside America until recently have not been strictly legal as they scraped data from web sites, violating copyright. People were only able to get away with it because it was technically difficult, required ongoing effort, and hence a relatively small number of people did it, compared to the suffering majority.

The third item is where a product differentiates itself.

WMC was really easy to set up, for OTA channels, in North America.
Yet still there have been whole ecosystems of forums, blogs, magazines and books written on how to do it. Not to mention there have been more than a few people who made a living out of doing it for other people. Don't underestimate the work it takes to set up any TV application, or expect to make it a breeze for people who have trouble using a toaster.

Actually I should note that I found MC just as easy to set up initially as WMC. It just didn't have certain functionality, like colour coded programs in the Guide, sorting of channels in the Guide, and so on. In both cases I had to search elsewhere for an EPG solution, and had a learning curve to get the EPG working. WMC plus IceTV worked quite well and wasn't too hard. Neither was as difficult as getting an EPG into my Topfield TF6000PVRt, which required the use of a local solution called TEDS Suite on a laptop sitting next to my PVR and communicating with the PVR via FTP over USB. The USB was an improvement over my initial solution using the completely dodgy TF6000PVRt wireless adapter, with TEDS Suite on my main PC. The program cost a few dollars a year, but the data was free . . . because it was scraped from web sites, violating copyright, and the author would have been in big trouble if he charged for it.



adlelare, for WMC you forget the hoops M$ has us canadians jump through  :o

That is nirvana compared to what Microsoft does for us Australians, which is nothing. No EPG is provided at all. Never has been. On top of that, our broadcasters took the only commercial EPG provider (IceTV) available for end users to court, multiple times to prevent them from sharing a program guide electronically. They lost, won, and finally lost as they went up through the court system, and finally gave up. Now they compete by providing a seven day EPG OTA, which isn't perfect but isn't too bad.

Since you are rethinking TV setup from the ground up it would be worth considering integrating EPG collector. It is open source with the source code available. The dev is happy for anyone to do whatever with it.

EPG Collector is a great solution for Australia and New Zealand, and many other places. It is what I use to collect the OTA EPG mentioned above, and it does it very well. But because of its heritage it is quite a technical application, and has a bit of a learning curve. That is because it supports such a broad range of EPG data sources (OTA, Cable, SAT) from around the globe. But it doesn't support every location, to my understanding. It is great that it is free and is well supported. It is better yet that it uses free data, and is 100% legal.

I wouldn't integrate it, but would get the source and work out what it is doing, and then build the functionality in MC as a module. Just one of the options for getting EPG into MC. Which is similar to the current design. Combine that EPG gathering with the internet based Metadata Lookup to find Season and Episode numbers, and possibly go further to collect "Program ID" and use it for series recording, instead of using a simple full or partial name search, would see MC start to compete with some of the proprietary solutions, such as IceTV here in Australia.

In fact IceTV has a lot of value added services build around its EPG, including "never miss a recording" type functions, series link recordings, mobile device TV Guide and setting of recordings remotely, recommended programs and so on. It has an API which the PVR manufacturers use to get IceTV into their machines. It also has an App to push EPG data and recording instructions into WMC. One option in Australia would be to use that API to build a module in MC to import IceTV EPG plus all the value added functions. I did ask IceTV some time ago if they would be interested in working with JRiver, but I didn't get a response. They were focused on their new PVR and management changes. They may be interested now.

Anyway, another long missive. Don't forget to look at Argus TV as they were supposed to be the up and coming TV solution. I quick look last night was a bit disappointing though.

Oh, and please don't put aside recent short term improvement requests in favour of establishing the long term view and goal. There are two more that will make my personal EPG experience a whole lot better:
[EPG] MC Kills my external EPG data collector
[EPG] Importing xmltv_ns format Season and Episode numbers correctly

Finally, I'm not sure how I can help. My WMC experience was short, and now mostly forgotten. I do still have it, but it is on the MC HTPC and running it again may be problematic. If you were to start a list of ideas about required functionality I could probably contribute, or critique.
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

Castius

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #44 on: September 26, 2014, 01:26:25 am »

I would say with MC you have more option than i know what to do with. Without some research.

So it might feel better if it tried the recommended steps first. Then when they don't work ask you to try alternatives.

For example:
I think Google TV will try to tune to a channel and asks you if they show you're seeing is the right one.
If it's not it will start the setup over and try other settings.

You can always have the "expert mode" with all the options.
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imugli

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #45 on: October 05, 2014, 09:47:46 pm »

In fact IceTV has a lot of value added services build around its EPG, including "never miss a recording" type functions, series link recordings, mobile device TV Guide and setting of recordings remotely, recommended programs and so on. It has an API which the PVR manufacturers use to get IceTV into their machines. It also has an App to push EPG data and recording instructions into WMC. One option in Australia would be to use that API to build a module in MC to import IceTV EPG plus all the value added functions. I did ask IceTV some time ago if they would be interested in working with JRiver, but I didn't get a response. They were focused on their new PVR and management changes. They may be interested now.

Given the value add services you mention, I'd love this to be the case. The IceTV app is nice and easy, and it would be great to be able to use it to schedule recordings etc.

+1 for this.

rec head

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Re: glynor's it
« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2014, 07:46:02 am »

The problem with making MC TV setup as easy as WMC would be then people will want the rest of MC easy to use. For all the stupid things MS has done they did a great job on MC. If it natively supported more formats and codecs I don't know if I would have left it. It only got difficult to setup and use when trying to add codecs and add-ons for unsupported media.

Really though, I hope this is a great first step in making MC easier overall.
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