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Author Topic: Please help me build a server (PC based)  (Read 9902 times)

Denti

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Please help me build a server (PC based)
« on: May 22, 2015, 10:16:58 am »

I have an old HTPC running Vista with 6GB RAM and a 2.0Ghz processor. I have 7 multiple-TB external HDDs attached to it with music and video. It's doing fine as a server, running music and video to a NUC via ethernet. But now I'm wanting to use CrashPlan for backup instead of extra HDDs, and that requires more memory and power to do alongside the other stuff (plus 1080p video could be smoother, and it would be nice to use MC's advanced video options, but I guess that needs to be dealt with on the NUC end...).

So I'd like to keep the SilverStone case I have and build a server, but the choices for motherboards (with and without processors) is overwhelming. If I'm using it only for the above (backup to CrashPlan, and as server for music and video), and don't want to spend that much money, what should I go for? I'm assuming I need at least 8GB RAM, preferably more (I'll be backing up at least 8TB). Otherwise: power supply, mobo, processor (unless included in mobo), and memory. I don't need advanced video, since I'm using the NUC to play.
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Denti

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Re: Please help me build a server (PC based)
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2015, 01:37:03 pm »

No responses, so here's what I'm considering:

AMD FD8350FRHKBOX FX-8350 FX-Series 8-Core Black Edition Processor

ASUS M5A99FX PRO R2.0 AM3+ AMD 990FX SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX AMD Motherboard

I can add up to 32GB RAM on this board, so I figured I could start out with two 8GB sticks and see how it goes.

I don't think I can use my old Seasonic 380W power supply... so I'm looking at 650W ones. I won't be running a fancy video card, so I'm not sure what wattage to get.

And I'm now also thinking of just getting a cheap case so that I can keep my old HTPC as a working computer.

Thoughts?
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astromo

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Re: Please help me build a server (PC based)
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2015, 04:13:05 am »

No responses, so here's what I'm considering:

AMD FD8350FRHKBOX FX-8350 FX-Series 8-Core Black Edition Processor

ASUS M5A99FX PRO R2.0 AM3+ AMD 990FX SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX AMD Motherboard

I can add up to 32GB RAM on this board, so I figured I could start out with two 8GB sticks and see how it goes.

I don't think I can use my old Seasonic 380W power supply... so I'm looking at 650W ones. I won't be running a fancy video card, so I'm not sure what wattage to get.

And I'm now also thinking of just getting a cheap case so that I can keep my old HTPC as a working computer.

Thoughts?

Not much from me. I'm not clued up to hardware that I haven't researched myself.

As a general thought, I'd be surprised if you need more than 16GB of RAM for the job you're got in mind. I survive pretty well on 8GB and that's for a unit using the CPU as the graphics unit.
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Denti

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Re: Please help me build a server (PC based)
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2015, 07:21:44 pm »

What if I wanted to use it as a player, too? What's the minimum video card I would need to run Red October HQ?
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Denti

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Re: Please help me build a server (PC based)
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2015, 10:10:40 am »

Now I'm thinking of going with

Gigabyte AM3+ AMD DDR3 1333 760G HDMI USB 3.0 Micro ATX Motherboard GA-78LMT-USB3

and

AMD FD6300WMHKBOX FX-6300 6-Core Processor

to save some money.

Add 16GB RAM, and then I might also add a video card powerful enough to work with Red October HQ. Is this feasible?
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Denti

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Re: Please help me build a server (PC based)
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2015, 10:49:57 pm »

Graphics card to go with the above, anyone?
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mwillems

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Re: Please help me build a server (PC based)
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2015, 08:12:38 am »

I think part of the problem is that you're asking questions that could have many different answers depending on your use case.  Asking for a video card that will "run Red October HQ" is kind of like asking "how long is a piece of string?"  MadVR has a lot of different settings.  The absolute maximum settings are beyond the capabilities of even very high-end cards, and the lowest settings can be less graphics card intensive than Red October Standard.  

Modern Intel integrated GPUs on the "Core" processors (i.e. the HD5000 and HD6000 series that shipped with Haswell i3's, i5's, and i7's) will actually run Red October HQ at medium to medium-high settings (depending on the model). The lower power intel processors (Celeron, etc.) typically don't have the "nice" iGPUs, so those are a different kettle of fish.  I don't have any AMD hardware so I can't comment on that.  

If you want performance better than intel's integrated graphics, the standard recommendations here are an Nvidia 750Ti or the new 960. To give you a calibration, a 660Ti is better for MadVr than the integrated graphics, but not by a huge distance.  iGPU's have come a very long way in recent years (at least on the intel side, but I assume AMD has as well).  

For your server build generally, a few thoughts:

1) Total RAM size isn't really that important unless you're running virtual machines.  JRiver is a 32-bit program so it can't even theoretically use more than 4GB of RAM on a 64-bit OS, and in practice, I've never seen it exceed 2Gb.  For a pure server application, you probably don't need more than 3 or 4GB (my server runs on 4GB and never uses all of it), for an HTPC application you probably want a bit more. I don't know how much RAM crashplan eats, but one of my HTPCs has 8GB of RAM, and I've never seen it run out of RAM, so 8 may be enough unless crashplan is very hungry or you plan on doing other things with the computer.

2) The CPU you choose is only important if you plan on using the server for transcoding.  If you just plan on using the server to support other JRiver client PCs that can play back all formats natively, you could probably get away with a much weaker CPU (I've used a dual-core celeron for this, it's basically a fileserver at that point).  

3) However if you plan on watching video using Gizmo or JRemote on devices (tablets, etc.) or if you plan on serving content via DLNA to a device like a smart TV, apple TV, etc. you will need a fairly powerful CPU because those applications typically require transcoding video on the fly.  The conventional wisdom is that for each HD stream you're transcoding at once your CPU needs 2000 Passmark benchmark points, see CPU benchmarks here: https://www.cpubenchmark.net/  Your proposed CPU has roughly a 5000 passmark, which means it could probably handle two simultaneous streams, but definitely not a third.  If you add simultaneous local playback to the list, that eats up some cycles too depending on your setup.

So if you know that you won't be doing any transcoding, that CPU is more than enough.  If you think you might have a need for transcoding, but not tons of devices at once, that CPU is a good fit.  If you think you might need more than two simultaneous transcoded streams (or one stream and intensive local playback) you may need to get something beefier.
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Denti

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Re: Please help me build a server (PC based)
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2015, 08:32:31 am »

Thanks for this!

A couple follow-ups/clarifications:

Transcoding: with video I play in whatever format it's in. No streaming to devices that require transcoding. Right now I'm sending video from my server to my NUC, and it's having a tough time with anything higher than 720p. Is that on the server end or the NUC end?

I guess that's my main question: is it the *player* that needs the better GPU and (potentially) processor or both the player and the server? (If they're one and the same I guess that's moot)
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mwillems

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Re: Please help me build a server (PC based)
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2015, 08:38:22 am »

Thanks for this!

A couple follow-ups/clarifications:

Transcoding: with video I play in whatever format it's in. No streaming to devices that require transcoding.

Fair enough, but just to be clear, using Gizmo or JRemote to watch on a tablet or phone always requires transcoding (which isn't immediately obvious). 

Quote
Right now I'm sending video from my server to my NUC, and it's having a tough time with anything higher than 720p. Is that on the server end or the NUC end?

I guess that's my main question: is it the *player* that needs the better GPU and (potentially) processor or both the player and the server? (If they're one and the same I guess that's moot)

Generally speaking video playback hardware needs to be on the player, not the server.  If the NUC is running JRiver and playing back the file in it's native format, then the NUC is the issue, not the server.  You haven't mentioned what the specs on the NUC are?  Some NUCs can definitely run ROHQ on medium settings, but others definitely can't. 
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Denti

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Re: Please help me build a server (PC based)
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2015, 08:45:59 am »

Thanks for your help.

My NUC is the DN2820FYKH with Intel Celeron N2820. I don't think it has the power needed.

I basically have two problems: I need more RAM to run CrashPlan and I want to run ROHQ. I figure instead of building two computers I could build one to take care of both, but I'm woefully undereducated in this stuff. And I'm on a serious budget.

Looking at Intel now, too. So a core i5 processor would be ok for ROHQ medium settings? Then I wouldn't have to get a video card.
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mwillems

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Re: Please help me build a server (PC based)
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2015, 09:00:17 am »

Thanks for your help.

My NUC is the DN2820FYKH with Intel Celeron N2820. I don't think it has the power needed.

I basically have two problems: I need more RAM to run CrashPlan and I want to run ROHQ. I figure instead of building two computers I could build one to take care of both, but I'm woefully undereducated in this stuff. And I'm on a serious budget.

Looking at Intel now, too. So a core i5 processor would be ok for ROHQ medium settings? Then I wouldn't have to get a video card.

I currently run an i5 NUC with an HD5000 integrated iGPU, and it can run ROHQ on medium-high settings (Lanczos or Jinc) for non-interlaced material, but can only handle medium settings with interlaced material.  It's about 2 years old at this point, and the latest generation i5 NUC GPUs (the HD6000) is about 10% faster, so would probably be better yet.  You won't be able to max out MadVR's settings, and you may need to fiddle with the settings, but it should work on medium to medium-high settings.

If you're not buying a NUC, pay specific attention to the iGPU bundled with the processor and do some research because not all desktop i5 models ship with the same iGPU.  You can often find articles or forum threads on the specific performance of, say, the HD5000 in MadVR.  
Try to get one with an HD6000, or better yet an Iris HD6100 (although those may only ship on the new i7 NUCs).
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JimH

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Re: Please help me build a server (PC based)
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2015, 09:05:14 am »

I would be surprised if a 2820 would be able to use Red October.  I don't think it's powerful enough.
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Denti

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Re: Please help me build a server (PC based)
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2015, 09:06:47 am »

OK, I think I'll just build a solid server with the memory I need to do backups, and get a NUC for ROHQ later. Just to be sure, again, I don't need more than 4GB RAM, right?
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mwillems

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Re: Please help me build a server (PC based)
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2015, 09:07:55 am »

OK, I think I'll just build a solid server with the memory I need to do backups, and get a NUC for ROHQ later. Just to be sure, again, I don't need more than 4GB RAM, right?

I don't know what crashplan requires in terms of memory.  My JRiver server runs with 4GB, but I don't run crashplan.  8GB is probably a safer bet, but you might be able to get away with 4GB.  My main point was that you almost certainly don't need 16 unless you're doing virtualization or something else.
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Denti

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Re: Please help me build a server (PC based)
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2015, 09:12:39 am »

I don't know what crashplan requires in terms of memory.  My JRiver server runs with 4GB, but I don't run crashplan.  8GB is probably a safer bet, but you might be able to get away with 4GB.  My main point was that you almost certainly don't need 16 unless you're doing virtualization or something else.

CrashPlan says I need 1GB RAM per TB I'm backing up. I have about 8-9TB I need to back up, so I thought I'd go with 16 over 8, but maybe that's overkill.
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mwillems

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Re: Please help me build a server (PC based)
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2015, 09:17:34 am »

CrashPlan says I need 1GB RAM per TB I'm backing up. I have about 8-9TB I need to back up, so I thought I'd go with 16 over 8, but maybe that's overkill.

Seriously?  That's nuts.  If that's what they recommend, I'd take them at their word and get 16GB, but I have serious questions about backup software that contemplates using that much memory at steady state.  Wow.  Make sure you install the 64-bit version of your OS.
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Denti

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Re: Please help me build a server (PC based)
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2015, 09:30:42 am »

Well,, I save a lot of money by going with only 8GB, so that's what I'll be doing, though maybe I'll be sure to get a board that can handle an extra 8GB if it turns out they're right.
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Denti

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Re: Please help me build a server (PC based)
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2015, 09:49:25 am »

Quick question on dual channel memory: if I get a board with two slots, can I put one 8GB stick in now and then add one later, or do the sticks have to be matched/paired?
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adamt

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Re: Please help me build a server (PC based)
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2015, 12:16:13 pm »

Quick question on dual channel memory: if I get a board with two slots, can I put one 8GB stick in now and then add one later, or do the sticks have to be matched/paired?

You can use one 8GB stick.  It won't be quite as fast as two 4GB sticks, but it's much more convenient for upgrading. 
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Adam Thompson, JRiver

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Re: Please help me build a server (PC based)
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2015, 08:04:21 am »

RE Crash Plan - I'd be very skeptical of the RAM per TB statements.  They're so bandwidth-throttled that it's hard to imagine anything on your end being a bottleneck.

There was a very interesting article in one of the PC magazines recently where they benchmarked a bunch of different tests with different amounts of RAM, and different speeds of RAM.  The results were not what you'd expect.  Really marginal - as it barely noticeable, and when you factor in cost, negative cost benefit - benefits over 4gb for a lot of benchmarks, and beyond 8gb not very much benefit at all.  Same thing with increasing RAM speed and channels.  I know with Photoshop, it's well designed to use as much RAM as you give it, but most other apps that I observe seem to poop out at pretty low utilization levels.

I've done some experiments with a couple Windows laptops with more and less RAM, and other than when I'm running many things at once, 8gb seemed to be a max benefit level.
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BryanC

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Re: Please help me build a server (PC based)
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2015, 07:15:19 am »

Quote
and other than when I'm running many things at once, 8gb seemed to be a max benefit level

Isn't that the whole point?
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