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[BobCu]

I'm investigating all DVR/PVR candidates before deciding if I will upgrade my HTPC to Windows 10.

I have two USB tuners, a Hauppauge WintTV-HVR 950Q, and a KWorld KW-UB445-U2.  Both work under Windows Media Center (WMC).

The first WMC replacement candidate I tried, NextPVR, easily found all channels on both tuners.

I next tried MC 20.0.131:  So far, MC fails with the KWorld tuner (can't tune it at all), and a partial fail with the Hauppauge tuner (finds only some of the channels).  

Other problems, as I see them, include the following:

1. Channel scans are not cumulative: Doing a new scan on a device wipes any prior scan.  FIX: 1) Scans should be cumulative. 2) A new scan should never wipe a prior scan unless I explicitly check something like: "OK to erase prior scans on THIS tuner."

2. During configuration I was forced to select only one tuner for channel scans.  What if I want to use BOTH, in case they have different capabilities?  FIX:  Scan on all selected tuners.  Use this data when mapping scheduled recording to tuners.

3. Why do I have to choose a cable band?  Why not at least offer the option to scan all bands on all tuners?  (I'm willing to let the scan run overnight.)  Or how about a quick test to determine which bands are worth scanning?

4. It appears to be impossible to completely delete a tuner (and everything to do with it) then re-add it to try again.

Are there workarounds for the above issues?

What is the state of MC?  Is it a worthy replacement for Windows Media Center (the only program MS ever got right), or am I asking too much of it?

[JimH]

Both of those tuners should work.  Are you in the U.S.?

[Yaobing]

1. Multiple scans do not wipe previously scanned channels.  It works for me.
2. You choose one tuner to perform the scan.  If you want, you can choose another tuner to perform scan a second time.  MC will pick an available tuner when you watch or record. 
3. Because the user knows which ones are available.  Some people do not like having to wait for a long time.
4. Why would you delete a tuner?  You either use it, or disable it.  You can re-configure or delete an existing tuner-type profile.

[BobCu]

Yes, I'm in the US, using Time Warner Cable in San Diego, CA.

I tried every "obvious" way to do separate scans with each tuner, but it always wanted to do the same thing every time.  And once a scan was complete, I was unable to start a new scan.

Where can I find step-by-step instructions?  The application itself provides no assistance whatsoever.

The only workaround I've found so far is to completely uninstall MC, then reinstall it to try a different scan.

Overall, the MC setup/configuration system could use reorganization of the menus.  

1. Every configuration item should have a direct link to the Help documentation for that item.

2. Every configuration process should have both a "Wizard" (automatic detection with guided step-by-step configuiration), as well as direct access to each individual configuration item (in case the Wizard doesn't handle my needs).

Overall, minimize the amount of knowledge a user must have about their hardware or their cable system by using automatic detection to the greatest extent possible/practical.

The only "Smart" thing MC did right was finding the right EPG.  But everybody seems to get that right these days.

[BobCu]

@Yaobing: You are not correct.  The user does NOT know what channels are there!

In my particular case, Time Warner is doing an update of their network, and channels are moving all the time.  I need to be able to easily do a complete re-scan whenever a channel "goes away".

Also, TWC is adding and dropping channels all the time (mainly deleting channels from Clear-QAM).  I plan to rescan once a month or so to ensure I pick them up.

Eventually, I will be moving one tuner to an antenna, since there are some low-power local stations that TWC doesn't carry on Clear-QAM.

What I'd really like is an "EPG Tracker" that would automatically detect lineup changes and trigger a rescan.  But I don't know if anyone provides that yet.

Also, it does not matter how long a scan takes.  In fact, MC scans slower than every other product I've tried so far.  

I've also tried TotalMedia, and it did a fast scan that found all channels on both tuners.

[BobCu]

One more thing, @Yaobing.  Whenever you say MC can do something, please provide a step-by-step procedure for doing it. 

Just saying it "can do it" doesn't make it so.  Prove what you say. Back it up in a way that enables me to do it too.

And be sure your procedures apply to 20.0.131.

[JimH]

The wiki may be some help.  Also, there are many posts here with useful information.  A search might help.

[BobCu]

I did search both the wiki and this forum.  Nothing I found helped.

I'm more than willing to do extra work to figure out an Open Source application. 

But MC is a PAID program.  It should work better than Open Source if it is to be worth a penny.  And I'm more than willing to pay for something if it is worth it, which is the only reason I downloaded it in the first place.

I also expect paid applications to come with a MANUAL and USER GUIDE.  Well edited, formatted for printing, with a good table of contents and an index.

So far, MC has no unique features that I can see, and is missing pretty much everything I expect to be present in a paid application.

And I haven't even gotten to the point of scheduling and watching recordings!

[JimH]

Bob,
Slow down and show a little patience.  I sent you an e-mail a few minutes ago to that effect.

Not all of the problems you're having are problems with the program.

If you can just ask the questions, one at a time, we'll get you going.  Otherwise, it sounds like you have other choices you prefer.

Jim

[BobCu]

Well, now MC 20.0.131 is crashing whenever I try to update or recreate a profile.  The configuration system isn't robust at all.

I want to know the correct way to add two independent tuners.

For now, both will be connected to cable, but before long I expect one to be connected to an antenna (or I may add a third tuner for the antenna).  Please tell me what the configuration differences are between these scenarios.

Include both words and screenshots to the greatest extent possible.  

[JimH]

What is your antivirus?

[Yaobing]

Sorry, when I made my post, I did not realize you were in the USA and did not know you were trying to scan clear QAM.

Last time I tried with my Comcast cable, I was not able to get any channel because Comcast stopped sending any channels in the clear.  But a while before that I was able to get some clear QAM channels.  Many cable companies are cutting down their clear qam channels.  That means you will either have to use their set-top-box or rent a CableCARD and use a CableCARD capable tuner device such as Ceton InfiniTV or SiliconDust HDHomeRun Prime.  I do not know the situation with your particular cable company though.

[Yaobing]

To use both tuners to scan for channels, follow these steps.

1. TV Options > General > Setup...

2. Select country and type zip code.

3. Digital Cable or satellite

4. Check "Clear QAM" and check both tuners.  Now highlight the tuner that you want to be used for scanning during this round, and click the button below the tuner list "Use highlighted device to perform actual scan".

5. Follow through the rest of the wizard, except that you may skip setting up EPG at this time.  Wait until scan finish

Yes, you are right, having an option to scan all bands is a good idea.

6. When all is done, check the channels list and see if you are satisfied.  If not, and you want to try using the second tuner to scan again, click OK to exit Manage Channels window so you will be returned to TV Options.

7. On TV Options page, click the tuner profile you just setup, and click Configure button.  Click Next button until you get to the page with list of tuners to use.  Now you can select a different tuner to perform actual scan.  Finish configuration and return to TV Options.

8. Click Manage Channels... on TV Options page.  Click "Rescan" button on lower right corner.  Pick the QAM profile and go through the scanning process.

9. If you found some channels on the second scan, and you believe these channels can only be tuned on the second tuner, you can assign the second tuner as their preferred tuner (on the right side of the Manage Channels window).

[Yaobing]

If you later want to use one of the tuners for over-the-air signals, just carry out the Setup steps, to setup an ATSC profile.  You need to pick which tuner you want to use for ATSC, and you will be asked to confirm that you want to switch the tuner from QAM to ATSC.

[JimH]

20.0.132 is on the forum now.  It fixed a crash problem.

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=99073.0

[BobCu]

I had just sent Jim a long email about why MC has fallen to the bottom of my PVR/DVR candidate list, when I noticed the new release and decided to give it a try.  

To use both tuners to scan for channels, follow these steps.

1. TV Options > General > Setup...

2. Select country and type zip code.

3. Digital Cable or satellite

4. Check "Clear QAM" and check both tuners.  Now highlight the tuner that you want to be used for scanning during this round, and click the button below the tuner list "Use highlighted device to perform actual scan".

5. Follow through the rest of the wizard, except that you may skip setting up EPG at this time.  Wait until scan finish

Yes, you are right, having an option to scan all bands is a good idea.

6. When all is done, check the channels list and see if you are satisfied.  If not, and you want to try using the second tuner to scan again, click OK to exit Manage Channels window so you will be returned to TV Options.

7. On TV Options page, click the tuner profile you just setup, and click Configure button.  Click Next button until you get to the page with list of tuners to use.  Now you can select a different tuner to perform actual scan.  Finish configuration and return to TV Options.

8. Click Manage Channels... on TV Options page.  Click "Rescan" button on lower right corner.  Pick the QAM profile and go through the scanning process.

9. If you found some channels on the second scan, and you believe these channels can only be tuned on the second tuner, you can assign the second tuner as their preferred tuner (on the right side of the Manage Channels window).

Problems with the above procedure:

A. You need to list EVERY mouse click, and EVERY word typed.  Be explicit.  That includes pressing "Next".  Also, list each new dialog using its full title.  Don't skip any, no matter how trivial.  I'll do my best with the gaps in the above procedure, but who knows what the result will be.

B. You skipped a step between 1 and 2 above: the "Clean up old settings?" dialog.  Can you tell me what you did during that step?  Despite a complete uninstall (of .131) and reinstall (of .132), I still get that dialog.  What must be done to ensure I'm doing a COMPLETELY FRESH INSTALL?  Why doesn't the app installer ask me about it?  I checked "Reset all television settings." and selected "Yes" on the subsequent confirmation dialog.

C.  The standard setup process should be for EVERY tuner to get configured and scanned in ALL bands.  While slow, this guarantees that the user will have access to every possible channel, with none missing because tuners or scans were skipped.  Just warn the user that it may take overnight, and all will be well.

But that hides another MC problem:  Why is the default scan rate so slow?  MC has the slowest band scan of any program I've tried.  If everyone else can do better, so can you.

Once all scans have completed, see if there are differences between them, and ask the user what to do about them (drop/keep channels, primary/secondary if kept, etc.).

D. "Standard" scan of first tuner yielded no channels.  Why doesn't the "Rescan" button allow me to choose a different frequency set?  I cancelled the rescan.

E. MC doesn't track (and remind me) of what prior scans have been attempted, and if each was "more thorough" or not.  The app should at least keep track of what it has done in the past!

F. Second scan of first tuner: IRC found some channels, but fewer than expected. Maybe TWC has replicated some channels across bands during its reorganization.  Or the bands may overlap.  I don't know, and I shouldn't have to care.  The program should HANDLE THIS.

G. Third scan of first tuner: HRC.  Got a popup about trying to rescan existing profile, selected "No", then selected to use default new name "QAM (1)".  

I have no idea why I should EVER care about what a "profile" is, what it does, or what its name should be.  If there is a reason to care, why doesn't the program help tell me why it matters, and help me select a useful name?

The only exception I can think of would be if I'm using an external switch to feed different sources to a single tuner: Since this is probably a RARE occurrence, it should not be part of EVERY setup, but should instead be a question at the beginning of the setup that will ENSURE scans will be done for each input source selection.  That is to day, it should be more common and easier (and not that expensive) to add separate tuners for each input rather than use a switch.  And if a switch is present, it should be explicitly handled by the setup process.

The third scan ended with no new channels found.  Looks like TWC has started to depopulate Clear-QAM.  <sigh>

G. Attempted to start first scan of SECOND tuner. MC crashed when I hit the "Scan" button.  It it matters, it did not ask me about the profile name.

H. Restarted MC.  Get rid of the delay on the startup dialog if I am still within the 30 days.  It adds pain to an already painful procedure.

I. Selected SECOND tuner.  Manually renamed profile to hopefully avoid crash.  Selected IRC.  Pressed "Scan".  Crashed again.

[JimH]

Your crash is obviously a big problem.  Antivirus?

Yaobing added a TV Setup page on our wiki yesterday.

[Yaobing]

A. You need to list EVERY mouse click, and EVERY word typed.  Be explicit.  That includes pressing "Next".  Also, list each new dialog using its full title.  Don't skip any, no matter how trivial.  I'll do my best with the gaps in the above procedure, but who knows what the result will be.

I will do my best to help you.  There is a new Television Setup wiki as Jim mentioned.  I hope that will help a bit.  If there are any more doubts, please don't hesitate to ask questions here.

B. You skipped a step between 1 and 2 above: the "Clean up old settings?" dialog.  Can you tell me what you did during that step?  Despite a complete uninstall (of .131) and reinstall (of .132), I still get that dialog.  What must be done to ensure I'm doing a COMPLETELY FRESH INSTALL?  Why doesn't the app installer ask me about it?  I checked "Reset all television settings." and selected "Yes" on the subsequent confirmation dialog.

That dialog will appear if MC finds old TV settings, or existing TV channels in your database.  The test on the dialog is clear enough so anyone can follow it.  Since the clean up operation is optional, you can check 0, or 1, or 2, or 3 checkboxes before clicking OK button.  If you want to completely start over with TV setup, for example, you can just check all three checkboxes and click OK.  Doing so will remove all existing EPG programs, all existing TV channels, and all TV settings.

C.  The standard setup process should be for EVERY tuner to get configured and scanned in ALL bands.  While slow, this guarantees that the user will have access to every possible channel, with none missing because tuners or scans were skipped.  Just warn the user that it may take overnight, and all will be well.

Sorry, this is the way it is.  In the future, maybe we can add that option.

But that hides another MC problem:  Why is the default scan rate so slow?  MC has the slowest band scan of any program I've tried.  If everyone else can do better, so can you.

Once all scans have completed, see if there are differences between them, and ask the user what to do about them (drop/keep channels, primary/secondary if kept, etc.).

MC is slow because we want to be thorough.  Since channel scanning is a one time endeavor for a user, it may not be such a bad thing.  We would rather not miss any channels.

Can we improve this?  Maybe.

D. "Standard" scan of first tuner yielded no channels.  Why doesn't the "Rescan" button allow me to choose a different frequency set?  I cancelled the rescan.

That may be an oversight on my part.  As it is now, you can do it by editing the profile first, then try a rescan.  That was what I tried to tell you in item 7 in my previous post.

E. MC doesn't track (and remind me) of what prior scans have been attempted, and if each was "more thorough" or not.  The app should at least keep track of what it has done in the past!

I will have to think about this one.

F. Second scan of first tuner: IRC found some channels, but fewer than expected. Maybe TWC has replicated some channels across bands during its reorganization.  Or the bands may overlap.  I don't know, and I shouldn't have to care.  The program should HANDLE THIS.

A particular channel scan may produce more or fewer channels.  There is no way for any application to know why.  The cable company may have changed the channel lineup as you mentioned, or it may just be a temporary condition when a channel has no signal.   So I am not sure what MC could do.  

G. Third scan of first tuner: HRC.  Got a popup about trying to rescan existing profile, selected "No", then selected to use default new name "QAM (1)".  

I have no idea why I should EVER care about what a "profile" is, what it does, or what its name should be.  If there is a reason to care, why doesn't the program help tell me why it matters, and help me select a useful name?

The only exception I can think of would be if I'm using an external switch to feed different sources to a single tuner: Since this is probably a RARE occurrence, it should not be part of EVERY setup, but should instead be a question at the beginning of the setup that will ENSURE scans will be done for each input source selection.  That is to day, it should be more common and easier (and not that expensive) to add separate tuners for each input rather than use a switch.  And if a switch is present, it should be explicitly handled by the setup process.

The pop up is indeed designed with other types of tuners in mind.  For QAM, you are right, we most likely should not need it.  This is another example of some finer points that we can improve upon.

G. Attempted to start first scan of SECOND tuner. MC crashed when I hit the "Scan" button.  It it matters, it did not ask me about the profile name.

I. Selected SECOND tuner.  Manually renamed profile to hopefully avoid crash.  Selected IRC.  Pressed "Scan".  Crashed again.

Can you please turn on logging.  Click Help on menu bar, and choose Logging...  Make sure the checkbox "Output to a log file" is checked.  Exit the dialog window by clicking "Done" button.  Now try repeating the procedures that caused a crash (in your case scanning with the second tuner).  If MC crashes, restart MC and go immediately to the Help > Logging... menu item.  On that dialog window, click "Report a problem" button.  MC will pack relevant log files and program crash dump (if any) to a zip file.  A pop up window will inform you that a zip file has been saved to your computer desktop.  Click OK on that dialog, and click Done on the "Logging..." dialog.  Find the Zip file on your desktop and email it to me.

yaobing at jriver dot com

[Yaobing]

I made the following change for MC21:

Changed: Added a tuner selection page when re-scan for television channels (only applicable in channel types for which multiple tuners are in the same profile), so you can scan for channels using one device, and re-scan using a different device more easily.

[BobCu]

Learned something today about some of the other PVR/DVR programs that have slow scan rates: The slower programs always wait a fixed amount of time on each channel, where the faster programs moved on the moment a usable signal was detected in the channel.

It would seem that the faster scanners poll the tuner status rather than wait for a fixed timeout.

My guess is MC waits a fixed amount of time, signal or not.  This should be fixed.

The slowest scanner was TotalMedia, but it included all audio-only channels (12) and encrypted channels (85) in the scan results.

What scan logic does MC use?

[Yaobing]

Learned something today about some of the other PVR/DVR programs that have slow scan rates: The slower programs always wait a fixed amount of time on each channel, where the faster programs moved on the moment a usable signal was detected in the channel.

It would seem that the faster scanners poll the tuner status rather than wait for a fixed timeout.

My guess is MC waits a fixed amount of time, signal or not.  This should be fixed.

The slowest scanner was TotalMedia, but it included all audio-only channels (12) and encrypted channels (85) in the scan results.

What scan logic does MC use?

Actually, we do move on as soon as we get usable signal.  My guess is that it is the unavailable channel that is causing the delay.  When we do not get a good signal, we wait.  Perhaps a bit too long, I don't know.