Topic: I'm stepping out on the ledge here..... (Read 3441 times)

JimH · « **on:** February 20, 2004, 07:34:37 pm »

About a month ago, we had an open revolt here on Interact. People weren't happy with how we were responding to requests anymore. We were feeling hard pressed to keep up with some other work we were doing, so it didn't go down well. Some requests began to feel like whining demands.

It climaxed with a "Go To Hell" post and went down hill from there. A few people were asked to leave. A few more felt like their friends were badly treated and they left on their own.

I'm sorry they left. I really am. They were all good folks and I think they all had good intentions. They added a lot of spice to Interact at times. The problem for us was that they sometimes made the pot boil when we were just trying to get the work done.

They asked (rightly so) for rules. "What are the rules", they demanded. I was too upset and over-worked to spend any time thinking about it. And I didn't want the forum to get all bitter and twisted again. I wanted to work.

So, now that we've had some time, I'll say what I think. Maybe some of those who disagree will reply. Maybe not. Who knows what goes on in someone else's head?

All I ask is this.

Be polite and respectful. That's all.

If something's broken, please ask us to fix it.

If you think something could be improved, please suggest how.

Telling us to "Go to Hell" won't help. Neither will repeating the same request over and over if we've said we don't expect to do it.

Please respect our right to decide what is OK here -- it isn't about "Free Speech" this is a business. We have a purpose. We try to please, but we can't listen to the same 10 people all the time.

Here is a post that perfectly typifies the kind of feedback we need and welcome.

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=19400;start=msg134527#msg134527

Listening to: 'Melanie' from 'Entertainment Weekly 1971' by 'Brand New Key' on Media Center 10

Bryan · « **Reply #1 on:** February 20, 2004, 07:56:40 pm »

Quote from: JimH on February 20, 2004, 07:34:37 pm

We try to please, but we can't listen to the same 10 people all the time.

Amen to that! I think the product would benefit from branching away from listening to the same 10 people all the time..

I think Jim that one of the things that ticks off people the most is a lack of acknowledgement of their suggestions/problems. I like the forum and I find it very helpful at times but I also find it frustrating at times when I have a problem and it goes unanswered. Maybe if you could reinstate some sort of feature request tracking and push people to post their requests there where the JRiver team could have one common place to address the feature requests..

I don't know what would to suggest for ensuring help gets to people who report problems but some attention in that area is sorely needed.. Those of us who've been up here for some years know how busy you folks are and maybe have a bit more patience than others. Nevertheless, a better (more attentive) way to support your paying customers with reported problems would be greatly appreciated.

Bryan

pbreet · « **Reply #2 on:** February 20, 2004, 08:03:19 pm »

Quote from: JimH on February 20, 2004, 07:34:37 pm

All I ask is this.

Be polite and respectful. That's all.

Agreed, and trying to be polite and respectful, that goes for you too. Somehow you get on people's nerves, Matt does not. But you both are really saying the same things. People ALWAYS misunderstand me too, so you are not alone.

Quote

Telling us to "Go to Hell" won't help.

That goes for you too. See above. I have never heard you say those words, but I've sure felt it.

Quote

Neither will repeating the same request over and over if we've said we don't expect to do it.

Many times, we ask, and are totally ignored, totally. I always respect a no answer, but many times there are no answers. The other day, I asked about album gain, Matt said no for this release, maybe for 10.1, it was totally dropped by everyone here.

Quote

Please respect our right to decide what is OK here -- it isn't about "Free Speech" this is a business. We have a purpose. We try to please, but we can't listen to the same 10 people all the time.

Understood, you are using us to help test, and we are using you to get features we want, and in a perfect world, we all benefit.

Jim, thanks for the post, lets all start fresh? Okay?

bmunroe · « **Reply #3 on:** February 20, 2004, 08:10:28 pm »

Jim -

Let me say right off of the bat that MC is a great product and the support is outstanding.

I am fairly new to the boards here, and I have not posted a lot, but I think I a lot of the anger, at the time, was over posts being deleted and censored.

Granted, it is your board and it is a business. But I think that some general guidelines over what is/is not acceptable discussions would be handy.

Brian

Matt · « **Reply #4 on:** February 20, 2004, 08:36:42 pm »

Thanks for this Jim, and well put.

We read pretty much everything that comes through Interact. If we don't answer, it often means we don't know. Sometimes it means our hands were too full to answer. This is why we often say "remind us." I can assure you that it isn't that we don't care or aren't listening.

Sometimes we make changes that some people don't like. This could mean that we were wrong. It could mean that we need to do a little more work. And it could mean that we're right and the change will help more people than it hurts.

This isn't something we'll always agree on, which is fine. However, as Jim stated, it's important for users to remain respectful even when they don't agree.

It's hard for us to know how to deal with a user that doesn't respect this. It reaches a point where there isn't much left to say except "leave, cool down, and come back if you want."

And at that point, we delete hostile posts. We won't allow Interact to be a place for fire fights.

In our defense, we normally make things right if you're patient. Sometimes we won't, but please bear with us even if you know we're wrong. For whatever it's worth, Jim and I don't always get what we want in the program either.

Thanks to all of you who help make Interact a nice place to be.

gpvillamil · « **Reply #5 on:** February 20, 2004, 08:54:28 pm »

Here's a thought:

MC9.1 is a finished product, so people who have questions/issues may be paid up customers in need of support. Delays or non-response may lead to justified(?) indignation.

MC10 is a beta, so there will be bugs, design suggestions & feature requests. Expectations of a response should be lower than for 9.1 users, since things are in flux.

People in the first group (9.1) find the discussion of the second group (10beta) a bit scary, and their questions are sometimes lost in the hubbub.

So I'd suggest having a forum for paid up users of stable products, which should be monitored for responses, and a beta forum, where it is realistic that some posts won't be answered/acknowledged.

Politeness & respectfulness are always a good idea. We should also have realistic expectations of what the forums are for - which is different for different people.

Charlemagne 8 · « **Reply #6 on:** February 20, 2004, 09:32:41 pm »

Does this herald the restoration of a kinder and gentler Interact?

I never left but my sense of the community here that I have enjoyed for years has been bruised lately.

I have visited the "splinter group" on occasion mostly because my "old friends" are there ... inasmuch as someone you've never met can be an old friend. You know what I mean.

There is no blame casting here mostly because I realize that at any given point, I could be mistaken.

But the first step toward mending fences must be made by someone for it to ever happen. It appears that you are now doing so. I sincerely hope it works. I miss some of the "old heads" around here.

CVIII ?

Griff · « **Reply #7 on:** February 20, 2004, 10:51:31 pm »

Well

I wasnt going to reiterate on this, but
(there goes that but again)

The little lady and I was listening to the HTPC/MC the

other night and I heard a tune, which reminded me of

Jim and the J-Team.

So Im going to get a little corney.

Sometimes the snow comes down in June

Sometimes the Sun goes around the Moon

I see the passion in ~~your~~ their eyes

Sometimes its all a big surprise.

Think about it.

Have a great night!

Griff

IlPadrino · « **Reply #8 on:** February 20, 2004, 11:27:34 pm »

Quote from: JimH on February 20, 2004, 07:34:37 pm

We try to please, but we can't listen to the same 10 people all the time.

I would hope you *listen* to everyone. Though no one could reasonably expect that you act based on the writings of the same 10 people, I think y'all should listen to *everyone*. Maybe semantics...

Topper · « **Reply #9 on:** February 21, 2004, 03:33:57 am »

Although a long time user I don't post very often, mainly because if i have any questions someone else usually asks them first and I'm quite happy for Jim and the guys to steer the ship as far as new features go.

To be honest I like the way the boards are now, it's kinda like they were when I first started coming here.

Quite some time ago I posted to the board criticising how some individuals were bombarding the board with feature requests and constantly pushing for those requests to be included at the expense of others requests. Those same individuals were also hi-jacking feature requests placed by other, more moderate members, and complicating the original idea beyond belief.

For what it's worth Jim I don't always agree with the way that you phrase things but I try to remember that you've probably written it out of frustration. This purge was, in my oppinion, long overdue and it has restored an element of sanity to the boards that had been missing for a while. Sure when I look at the board there aren't a million feature requests anymore but the requests that are there are sensible ones placed on the board for sensible discussion not so they can be hi-jacked for certain individuals own personal agendas.

As far as I'm concerned the splinter group would be welcome back anytime but they must remember that this board has a long history and a way of doing things that has worked well in the past, and it's not up to them to try and change it. Although we are all members here and have nicknames etc we still have to remember that we are guests here at J River

Thats about all I've got to say about that except that this forum is one of the best places on the web to while away an hour or two and it's got better.

mindracing · « **Reply #10 on:** February 21, 2004, 07:41:39 am »

It would help everyone to consider that:

"The meaning of the communication is the response you get"

If you're not getting back what you want/expect then a little flexing of style will often get a different reaction.

TimB · « **Reply #11 on:** February 21, 2004, 10:08:14 am »

Its interesting, my other regular message board (I only have two) is a forum for owners of a specific brand of guitar. Its run by an enthusiast, not by a company and he personally subsidizes it...heavily. When he started he had one credo, be nice. When he started this forum I told him that this was impossible, its counter to human nature but on this issue he's proved me wrong 99% of the time and as a result I've become a more tolerant poster.

While there have been eruptions at times, and suspensions of access and threads closed we mostly continue to treat the area as if its the owner's living room.

For Interact its easy to lose sight of the fact that this is just a program. We all need to remember this is a great community with developers who actually respond to our requests. You'll win some and you'll lose some but whining and constantly pushing is not the way to advance your cause.

It looks to me as if Jim's prime objective is to produce an excellent product and support his own team. That's the theme *I* see coming over on a daily basis. I suspect that harassing on these key issues is what truly aggravates him.

Finally, this is nothing to do with freedom of speech, first amendment rights, etc. JRiver can run this area any darn way they chose and they then accept the results.

I think this thread is pretty darn cool and as with so many things that JRiver does, an exception to the rule.

-=Tim=-

jleerigby · « **Reply #12 on:** February 21, 2004, 10:51:30 am »

Thanks for this post Jim. I know things got a bit out of hand here the last couple of months. I for one have certainly said some things I regret now for which I unreservedly apologise.

I agree with pbreet too in that it has to work both ways when it comes to showing respect and tolerance towards each other. I've looked back on things and plan to 'turn over a new leaf' in this respect and, from what I've seen recently, you are too.

Topper said:

Quote

Quite some time ago I posted to the board criticising how some individuals were bombarding the board with feature requests and constantly pushing for those requests to be included at the expense of others requests. Those same individuals were also hi-jacking feature requests placed by other, more moderate members, and complicating the original idea beyond belief.

I do post here quite a lot but I hope I don't fall into that category. If I ever do that I want to know about it. I think that one of the best ways for the regulars to give something back is to jump in with quick simple answers to newbie questions to relieve pressure on the workers who should be spending time improving the product.

JimH said:

Quote

If you think something could be improved, please suggest how.

Absolutely. Here's an example of a suggestion with good open discussion:

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=19256&start=0

Here's to the new interact.

xen-uno · « **Reply #13 on:** February 21, 2004, 11:30:43 am »

You could actually call me a member of that splinter group. I didn't like the post deletions or un-notated editing of posts...but I can also understand where Jim was coming from. I don't like whining or demanding posts either (though the ones that were deleted during that period didn't strike me so...but I did not read them all). Couple this with the desire to keep a certain project under wraps, and with the workload (per Jim), you had some short tempers on the Admin side...<physics law: for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction>...which bred hostility and contempt on the user side, leaving no possible way to vent. I think even Jim would admit that there was some overly rash handling of certain topics then.

I'm in favor of an amnesty for these banned and DOR'd (Dropped On Request) users and would like to see them back. I would include the "go to hell" poster, whoever that may be. Given that tempers were flaring on both sides then, and things have cooled now, I think he/she should be re-instated (if they wish). They had all been here a long time and had valuable input. I don't jive with this "10 people" stuff. They were very passionate and enthusiatic about MC, and thus, dug deeper into the program than most. Since MC is always in a state of development, isn't that what you would want in your testers?

Let's kiss and make up...you know, like this ...

10^-27

Marko · « **Reply #14 on:** February 21, 2004, 12:42:12 pm »

Sod it!!!!!

Twice now I've gotten half-way through composing an answer here, and twice I've ditched it.
Like walking on eggshells...

If this is the 2-way street opening up, then well done Jim for trying to build some bridges.
How's my new avatar? will that do

-marko.

DocLotus · « **Reply #15 on:** February 21, 2004, 02:11:36 pm »

Interesting, very interesting.

I too had left Interact some time ago as things were “heating up” a little too much for me.

I was also asked to join the ‘splinter” group (which I did look at) but after about three months I missed the comradely of Interact, decided to become more “civil” in my posts & came back. If that meant toning it down a few notches, so be it. If it meant not “beating a dead dog”, so be it.

Simply put, interact is more important to me then always trying to “prove a point”.

George Bush senior said it best with his ”Kinder, Gentler” theme during his Presidency.

There's an old saying that “We can get more with honey then with vinegar”.

KingSparta · « **Reply #16 on:** February 21, 2004, 02:47:34 pm »

Well if most people would chill out a bit most if not all the problems will be worked out.

Was Rome Built in a day?

sometimes it seems that the one time small $10 upgrade fee was going to kill someone.

There is a price for workmanship, goodwill is down the block and to the left.

pbreet · « **Reply #17 on:** February 21, 2004, 02:54:49 pm »

Quote from: KingSparta on February 21, 2004, 02:47:34 pm

sometimes it seems that the one time small $10 upgrade fee was going to kill someone.

I don't recall ANYONE complaining about the $10 upgrade fee. I do recall people (and I was one of them) complaining about the full price $40 "upgrade". That has been solved to my satisfaction and hopefully for everyone else.

KingSparta · « **Reply #18 on:** February 21, 2004, 03:01:41 pm »

Quote

I don't recall ANYONE complaining about the $10 upgrade fee.

there was, a few of them had 4 letter words etc... and had to be deleted

Quote

complaining about the full price $40 "upgrade".

some of that was a bug, and some of that was that some users did not understand how to get to the upgrade price.

TimB · « **Reply #19 on:** February 22, 2004, 01:20:58 am »

Quote from: KingSparta on February 21, 2004, 03:01:41 pm

Quote
some of that was a bug, and some of that was that some users did not understand how to get to the upgrade price.
...I think some of that was also Jim changing policy.

-=Tim=-

skidoo · « **Reply #20 on:** February 22, 2004, 02:08:09 am »

I just surfed over here tonight to sort of catch up. Haven't been here for a while.

I just can't resist stating (what seems to me to be) the obvious: It's just a media library program. I love my music, and Media Center 10 is a really good media library program, but I can't fathom getting all worked up about it.

This tempest reveals a great deal about the personalities involved. On both sides of the fence.

Just an observation.

MarSies · « **Reply #21 on:** February 22, 2004, 05:33:56 am »

I have not seen the "discussion" Jim is referring to.

Sometimes I also think that some things could be handled different. On both sides of the fence.
JRiver for making and improving a product which is their business. We pay for it. The users because we want something that satisfies our needs.

We better stick to the things that are essential. Skidoo, I agree completely with you.

MarSies .....

smOOzz · « **Reply #22 on:** February 22, 2004, 08:17:58 am »

This is a great product. And a unique forum.

My perception of this forum and it's responsiveness by management, staff and the wider user base, was the main reason I originally chose MJ and later MC. I was impressed by the way the forum was moderated for the good of 'all' and the developer's desire to adopt program suggestions where practicable. And there was much humour flowing.

I am not aware of the recent problems with members being 'banned' but I trust that those who want to return and abide by whatever forum moderating guidelines apply will be 'forgiven' and the positive contribution from all users may be observed. Even though I for one do not really understand the need for some obsessive 'tweaking' that some seem to be demanding.

NoCodeUK · « **Reply #23 on:** February 22, 2004, 09:10:05 am »

Thanks Jim... I see that things got very heated here recently and I can understand how it may have seemed to both sides. I can only apologise for any misdemeanours you saw on my part and thank you for trying to rebuild the bridges. I have been on holiday for a week and so have not been near a PC. Now I am back I plan to continue using Interact as I did in the past and hope that this is acceptable.

Adam

JimH · « **Reply #24 on:** February 22, 2004, 02:20:10 pm »

Thanks for the many level headed replies.

I'm going to close this now.

INTERACT FORUM

Author Topic: I'm stepping out on the ledge here..... (Read 3441 times)

jleerigby

Marko