INTERACT FORUM

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=578&e=6&u=/nm/20040422/tc_nm/tech_piracy_dc

The shortcut was short.  

Oh no

50% of my music has just stopped working

Imagine that.

Listening to: 'Since You're Gone' from 'Shake It Up' by 'Cars' on Media Center 10

I see they mention the ridiculous 2001 DoD bust. If this one is half as effective as that one, they probably "caught" a girl scout troop and a 93 year old lady. Oh, and USC probably had its library server shut down... Of course, they've got to find some reason to justify wasting all those tax dollars.

good news. I am a non-computer pro guy. I just know basic operations in PC. That's it. I guess warez is some duplicate copy. Right?
What are those guys gaining by distributing it?
If so, why not the authors of the software prevent others doing so?

Of note,
this is my take on anti-virus softwares. These guys might bring in some 'virus' and then provide solutions later on, so that they can be in business.

drb

Well, the "hackers" they'll catch that way will probably be kids for the most part.

Let me put it this way:
- with my cheap ass linksys 802.11 card I get 3-4 wireless networks in my neighborhood. Of these, only 2 are protected. That's just with a card that supposely can only receive from a 100 yards top.
- wireless antenas can be made for dirt cheap and can receive from 3 or more miles... Imagine how many networks a hacker can get his hands on then? Also, since his IP would be the one of a poor guy several blocks away, I hardly see how the FBI could track him down.
- On linux, it's pretty easy to use a software that cracks wireless password protection systems. From what I read it takes a semi-experienced hacker 30 minutes to do so...
- there's a software that along with a small GPS device lets you do the following: drive around town with your laptop and create a GPS map of all the wireless networks according to the GPS location. Then you reuse this same software to automatically switch from one network to the other while driving... Therefore this provides untrackable IPs for someone that, let's say, would like to do attack MS website...

-> bottom line: with all the technology that's around, a hacker can do whatever he wants pretty easily in my opinion. The ones they're busting are most likely just a bunch of kids who think they're cool for sharing their music, videos and programs with their friends and such.

PS: I've never tried to crack a network nor do I have such an antena. I just did some research on this and was sadly amazed by the results.

Those servers are used to steal software.  Some of them are stealing from JRiver and from the people who make MC.

Agreed, that's why I bought a J River licence   t's not cool to steal from developpers like you guys who bust their ass for a software that's well worth it.

Hope this doesn't affect you sales too badly,

-Cascius

Let's diagram (loosely) that sentence, shall we?

I'm not going to debate the authors of a piece of software I like on their own website,

but it should be noted that tossing around invective-loaded words like "steal" when referring to copyright infringement doesn't bolster their argument.

Aren't you contradicting yourself a tad there?  

So, priracy does not legally equate to theft but instead it's a mere copyright infringement?  Interesting.  *digesting words and restating*  So theft of intellectual property is really only a copyright infringement you say?  Again, interesting.  Learn something new everyday.  

Besides, we don't know if Jim meant stealing in the legal sense.  Abstractly, certainly you couldn't argue that downloading wares isn't stealing, could you?

So what do you call copying and using software you did not pay for?

Is photocopying a book for personal use stealing?  Copying a CD from a friend?

Doh!  Sorry Jim, that was in response to someone 3 posts above me. who seemed to think it was ok to use pirated software... That was mostly sarcasm on my part.  

I'm surprised that the reaction is anti Justice.

Those servers are used to steal software.  Some of them are stealing from JRiver and from the people who make MC.

I seriously doubt that. First, if they weren't going to purchase your software in the first place, you haven't lost anything. It's ridiculous how agencies like the SPA count the number of times a program is downloaded and equate that to lost sales. It simply isn't realistic. Are some sales lost? Certainly. Are some sales generated? Certainly. What is an accurate ratio of sales lost compared to sales generated? Nobody knows, because nobody has ever done an accurate study on the effect of software and music piracy.

Note, I'm not talking about guys on the corner selling copies of music, software and movies, that's not who's being targeted by these sweeps, yet that is where a real tangible loss is occuring, as it is directly competing with the sales of legitimate versions. Most of the studies of music piracy (again referring to peer-to-peer "sharing" and not pirated copies of CD's for sale in competition with legitimate ones) NOT commisioned by the RIAA have shown that free distribution of music actually boosts music sales. The same results occur when major recording artists freely distribute music online. It also boost sales of tickets for live shows and related merchandise.

As for the software side of things, as I mentioned, accurate studies haven't been done in this area, mainly because the only people with a financial interest (and therefore those commisioning the studies) are those selling and promoting the software. Having been peripherally involved in the "scene" at one time (this is back in the BBS days), I can personally relate that of many hundreds of software titles downloaded, most of them were never even installed on a computer. Were there a few programs I used regularly that I didn't pay for? Sure. Some people lost out on a few sales because of me. Do I know people who went out and purchased software based on my recommending it to them? Again, sure. I've no idea what the ratios are in either direction. I do know that had I not been able to download Photoshop 3 for free, I certainly wouldn't have paid for it, as it was priced well out of my range. I would have used the legitimate copy of Ulead's PhotoExpression I had instead (which sold for 1/4 of the price). Since I did have access to an "illegal" copy of photoshop, I used that, but Adobe certainly didn't lose a sale. The people who really made out were those selling blank disks (and now, probably blank CD's and DVD's).

Concerning Media Center, I'm sure that there are "cracks" available for those interested in using it illegally (Please note, I've a fully paid for and registered version:)). I'm sure that as new versions of MC are released, many of those cracks fail to work, rendering MC inoperable. Is someone seriously going to use a product which doesn't work until a new crack is released on a regular basis? It's possible, but I doubt it, especially when there are free alternatives available (not as good, of course, but then you get what you pay for, occasionally). If they really like MC, they'll buy a copy, otherwise, they'll shortly move on to something else. If you have figures which dispute this (and you may), I'd love to see them.

I wouldn't consider the responses "anti-justice". Considering that many of your users are of a general "high tech" level, and tend to do things "outside the lines" of mainstream conforming society, it's possible that some of them feel that justice would be better served if it took aim at real damaging targets, rather than those targets which are easiest to hit.

Quote from: Magicland on April 22, 2004, 10:26:14 pm

...if they weren't going to purchase your software in the first place, you haven't lost anything.

Absurd argument.  If someone wasn't going to buy your bicycle anyway, have you lost anything if they steal it?

The important point is whether one respects the property rights of another.  If not, then anything goes.  But that's anarchy.

You can't equate physical property with intellectual property. If somebody steals your bicycle, you don't have a bicycle. If somebody who wasn't about to purchase your software steals your software, you still have all the profits you were going to make from your software. Is it wrong? Sure. Have you actually suffered a loss? No.

You can't equate physical property with intellectual property. If somebody steals your bicycle, you don't have a bicycle. If somebody who wasn't about to purchase your software steals your software, you still have all the profits you were going to make from your software. Is it wrong? Sure. Have you actually suffered a loss? No.

So what you're saying is that if someone was to steal the code of MC and making their own same exact software with a different name, that wouldn't represent a lost either? J River would be losing a chunk of the market, and therefore profits.

It's exactly the same with using/ distributing cracked version of a software. I mean seriously, who cannot afford to pay $40 for a software that does this much? Probably most of the people who use cracked versions are high school/ university students. Before the mp3 craze, 99$ of those students would spend quite a lot of money on such things as music. i wouldn't be surprised if they spent close to $40/ a month. Therefore, if no cracked version were available I'm sure that a greater % of people would buy those software. Even if it's just 1/100, it would stil affect J River's revenues.

So it's not called a "loss" but rather a "lossed potential gain" if you prefer puting it that way.

1) lost potential sales = a loss. although not the same physically, these ARE the same economically. if someone steals a $40 product you still are $40 worse off. [cf economics 101]

2) people who illegally download music are often those who would not pay for music anyway (true). i have also heard the argument that increased downloads lead to higher sales, but thats irrelevant - what would the sales have been if there were no illegal downloads, even higher?

moreover the point is not would the people who download the tracks pay for them otherwise, its the precident that they sets..

pip

1) lost potential sales = a loss. although not the same physically, these ARE the same economically. if someone steals a $40 product you still are $40 worse off. [cf economics 101]

But do the users of cracked software represent a potential sale?

Quote from: GHammer on April 22, 2004, 10:12:35 pm

Is it fair that compaines like MS are now using 'special' pricing in places like China? If the software is worth $299.00 in the US, then I think it is worth $299.00 everywhere. And if it is only worth $50.00 in China for example, it is only worth $50.00 in the US.

I'm not saying I endorse the practice, but strictly speaking, that is just capitalism in action.  "What the market can bear," and that sort of thing.

Using your argument, then it is also unfair that gas prices aren't universally the same across the country.  (Okay, okay, let's not go into semantics over things like California clean air laws and such... you know what I mean.  )

If a barrel of oil is $40 on the market, a refinery is a refinery, then yes, I'd say for gasoline prices to be different is not kosher. Of course the taxes are unequal, but why is the cost of a gallon of gas itself different?

Sorry, but I don't buy the 'deep pockets' school of marketing.

so on that basis... if someone steals your car on a regular basis but happens to know when you normally use it and put it back whenever you need it, that's fine because they're not actually depriving you of it?

Some people really do have ridiculous justifications for this.

Why should anyone ever bother buying a piece of software then?

On the music side of things here is an example from my experience.  I am 23 by the way.  During the height of napster, i downloaded a lot of music, probably 50% of it was live stuff or unrealeased stuff of bands I allready owned most of the cds from.  However, some of it I got by searching the libraries of people who had similiar taste to me and then picking an artist and downloading their music.  The best example I have is Beulah, they are a great indie rock band from CA, anway i downloaded some of their music and really liked it.  It is a few years later and i still have the mp3s but I now own 5 of their records.  So if we are going to go into hypothetical scenarios, were it not for napster I would more than likely not own those cds.  This is what people say when they talk about lost potential customers versus gained potential customers.  The current music distribution model we are stuck with is not the only concievable model, crying THEFT at the top of your lungs is not going to make it so.

I was holding off commenting in this thread until I saw this:

If I had not been able to get hold of those copies I would not have used these programs to begin with, would have had a much harder time entering the work market as companies insist on experience with them. I then would not be in a position to now insist the companies own copies of these for me to use to work with which results in sales of these programs.

The company obviously needed a job done that required some sort of graphics progam. Someone else who had used a legal copy of the products while learning, for example, someone doing a computer graphics design course, could have gotten the job and told the company to get said products. Therefor, the fact that you pirated the software while learning and therefor made you experienced enough to do the job did not contribute to a sale for the software vendor - they would have had to purchase the product anyway, whether you got the job or not.

Some people don't think its theft until it happens to them.

-=Tim (a reformed Kazaa'er)=-

Please dont flame me or ban me or send timed explosives to me with FedEx (feel free to send it with DHL - it will explode before it ever reaches me! Once it took them more than a week to get an overnight package from London to me! And three days is the average - hopless!!!) , but my first experience with JRiver was a old cracked version of MJB 7 that I found on an FTP or maybe a website (this was the spring of 2002, I belive). By then I had been through Siren and Music Match, but didn't really like any of them. I liked MJB. So I checked JRiver's homepage and found that version 8 was out. I first started to look for a crack but then decided that the program was so good I had to buy it. I can say almost certainly that I wouldn't have found MJB/MC without that FTP or whatever - after MM and Siren I had given totally up on advanced systems and gone back to WinAmp.

So you may say that I'm a reformed pirate.   I hope I have made up for my transgression with my proclamation in all and any fora that MC crushes all competitors!

And my brother told me a while back that when he was a student the norwegian importer of one of the big name CAD programs (I won't say which, I promised not to tell anybody this) had an "underground" FTP where anybody could download the software. This was not sanctioned by the parent company, but the importer swore that at leas 30 % of his sales was because students had learnt his company's program and bought it when they got jobs where they needed a legal copy. This is very similar to what DarkAngelChild said.

my first experience with JRiver was a old cracked version of MJB 7 that I found on an FTP or maybe a website

Ha! I did the oldfashioned format reinstall every 29 days until I could afford the licence. So, was a sale lost? Nope, just postponed

Nah, this isn't even close to a war! If you call it that, you should have seen the old alt.pets.dogs way back in the time... I remember one about the amish puppy mills. That was a war! Even led to a few lawsuits. All in the name of a bit of fun...

Justin, I like "The Passion of the Christ". A historically very, very good movie (even for a blatant atheist like me!), but not one tenth as violent as people say. They have never seen 80's italian splatter, cannibal and zombie movies if they call that extreme!

I'm surprised that the reaction is anti Justice.


Well , in a country where a famous player of a famous sport go out free.
Where a famous singer is not that much in trouble for facts we know.
In a country where someone in the death row of a texan prison just need to get $70.000 to give to a lawyer who says that he will go out free in the next trial and that his problem is to have no money to had a private lawyer at the time ,instead of the free one he got.

So , in such a country i really would like to know what is justice , what is the meaning of the word justice.


Beside it , yes i do think that using cracks is stealing.

I will say it looks to people as a minor steal , a new Robin Hood age.

Again , what do softwares productors can expect when just giving a key as the way to unlock the program?

Look like everyone had try to apply old  rules to a new word ,way of living.
As we see with music . They try to apply old rules to a new product.
Would be better to have another view on it.

If the ones creating the first automobile had spend years thinking about where to put , what to do with the horse first , we may still use only bikes.

It is what irsometing is doing concerning music.

So ,to me , yes using cracks is stealing.

Concerning music , as far as i know , you cannot steal something that does not exist.

So , how someone can say i steal music in a format i can use as i like , when there is nowhere to  steal from?
I may try to steal protected music , but tell me where i can steal music in a format free of protection.
Nowhere i can do it. Not right ,i know- There is Emusic.
But out of Emusic , nothing.

I wasn't trying to get into a debate over the specifics of my right or wrong doings, i was simply trying to use it as a general example.

A large number of the people at my University got a lot of their experience with different pieces of software this way and have now gone on to get good jobs with companies thanks to their experience. They are now paying taxes, working hard and contributing to society as best they can as honest law obiding people.
Them having access to that gave them the ability to get where they are now, without it some might have, others definitely wouldn't have made it there.
And as for the software being purchased, with some bigger companies sure they will have the software and want someone who can use that software. With alot of smaller companies however they find the person who can do the work for them and he is the one who says what software, tools etc he needs. That persons experience with the bigger name programs is what makes them say 'I need photoshop'.

I've seen it from personal experience, from experience of peers and I've also read independant surveys backing this up.

this arguement however I fear is like the chicken and egg - everyone has their opinion that is often quite deeply felt and they are not too likely to change it. A right or wrong is hard to achieve that everyone agrees on.

To: modelmaker

It probably not that likely that he would still have the copies of the software he was using in college, simply due to upgrades, if he does have that software on his home computer, it is most likely either a newer cracked version or the software that his company bought.  Depending on the licensing requirements of the vendor this may or may not fall under fair use.  If he works for his company from home i would say that it most assuredly should fall under fair use.