Topic: Cue file support in MC11 (Read 19374 times)

Valissystem · « **on:** August 23, 2004, 05:48:09 pm »

Quote from: Matt on August 23, 2004, 05:31:06 pm

1. NEW: Added CUE file playback support of individual tracks. (note the sample-accurate MP3 seeking below)

Wow!! I can't wait to try it!!!!!

Valissystem · « **Reply #1 on:** August 23, 2004, 07:01:10 pm »

Cue/mp3 file play support.

1. Cue files do not seem to show up when browsing the "My Computer" tree.
2. If the Cue file does not reference a specific path to the mp3 file Media Center cannot find the file to play. MC needs to look for the file in the same directory as the CUE file if the file is not fully path'd.

Otherwise, great new feature!!

Valissystem · « **Reply #2 on:** August 23, 2004, 07:17:51 pm »

Quote from: Valissystem on August 23, 2004, 07:01:10 pm

1. Cue files do not seem to show up when browsing the "My Computer" tree.

Whoops! Actually I see now what is happening. It is showing the individual tracks from inside the cue file. So, now the question is how do we move things around the file system?

GHammer · « **Reply #3 on:** August 24, 2004, 02:09:08 am »

I installed this version fresh, no previous MC 11 on the system.

I have a rather odd way of keeping music, so when it did the initial library import, I saw that the CUE files were being read because the total count was inflated. Makes sense because I have a cue in each directory and also have APL files for MC 10.

When I browse through the library, there are no entries for any cue file. No selections, no CUE file, nothing.

I believe that instead of accepting the normal CUE entry for file MC 11 is looking for a path.

EAC (and others) usually write without a path:
PERFORMER "AC/DC"
TITLE "Back In Black (Remastered)"
FILE "Back In Black.ape" WAVE

If I edit this cue and include the entire path, it imports/plays fine.
PERFORMER "AC/DC"
TITLE "Back In Black (Remastered)"
FILE "D:\Documents and Settings\GHammer\My Documents\My Music\AC_DC\Back in Black\Back In Black.ape" WAVE

Please change this to be compatible with existing CUE files.
Thanks!

GHammer · « **Reply #4 on:** August 24, 2004, 02:39:38 am »

I said that if I included the full path to the APE in a CUE then MC 11 would import and play it.

Seems that is not exactly right.

I edited the CUE file to add the path.
I dragged it into Now Playing.
It was added and I could play the selections.
I chose Library->Import Into Library.
The notes changed from gold to blue, so the import was fine.
I did an Analyze Audio and it did its thing. Afterward I see the values in the Analyze window as normal.
I added images from the directory and when I play a selection the cover art is show.
If I look right then, there is an entry in the library under the artist for this CD. In the details for the selections, there is no data for duration or bitrate. Also, the year is 2004.
When I end MC 11 and run it again, the selections and album are not in the library. Not shown in any view I normally use.
If I do what used to be 'update library' (which I liked better as a separate function), I see that 9 files were removed.

Let me know if the cue should be modified when tags change or if any changes are only added to the database. Then I can know if things are working in the future by seeing if the relevant file is written to.

hit_ny · « **Reply #5 on:** August 24, 2004, 03:47:32 am »

Very pleased to see CUE implementation FINALLY !!

i have some questions wrt to mp3 files and cue.

- Is Audio Analysis possible on tracks within a cue ?

- Does a Locate->Artist/Trackname show all occurrences of a track whether in a cue file or otherwise ? This assumes that the relevant tracks have already been imported into MC.

- Is it possible to right-click a track in the cue and send to playing now ? To take it further is it possible to select tracks from different cue files and send to playing now. What is playback performance like ?

Excellent move to go sample accurate. This refers to formats that are not seek friendly ie mp3. It means that the file needs to be read from the beginning to get to the position desired in the cue file. Sample exact means that it will always start at a precise position (as indicated in the cue file) rather than guess track start time (with a margin of error).

The trade-off is speed of the seek.

With sample accurate, it might take a bit longer to start playing than if the player were to guess where in the mp3 to start (ala winamp).

But the result is a more consistant behavior.

Sample accurate does not apply to seek friendly formats like APE or ogg, as they by default support exact seeking.

JimH · « **Reply #6 on:** August 24, 2004, 08:59:08 am »

[copy and paste of Ghammer's earlier post on cue files]

I'd like to see CUE file support in MC. Playback, recording, ripping, etc. With all else that has been put into MC, I'm curious to see if there is demand for this ability.

Cuesheets are ASCII files basically used to define all of the selections contained on the CD and the starting time of each track/index..

This allows gapless/seamless playback of the indivdual selections, let's you play a single selection from within the large complete file, and in use with a good mediaplayer, allows you to convert a few selections to seperate files in a different format for use n your portable, etc.

Why? Well for clasical music there are not clear 'tracks'. For me, sometimes you want to hear Dark Side of the Moon complete. A good way to not have annoying gaps when the selection changes is to rip as one large file (in my case APE). But there are other times you just want to hear Us and Them. CUE file support enables this.

This method:
DSOTM.APE
DSOTM.CUE
Those are the only files needed in the directory.
I can listen to the whole album, or use the cue file to listen to a single selection.

Current method. Only works with APE format.
DSOTM.APE
Pink Floyd - 01 - Speak to MeBreathe.apl
Pink Floyd - 02 - On the Run.apl
Pink Floyd - 03 - Time.apl
Pink Floyd - 04 - The Great Gig in the Sky.apl
Pink Floyd - 05 - Money.apl
Pink Floyd - 06 - Us and Them.apl
Pink Floyd - 07 - Any Colour You Like.apl
Pink Floyd - 08 - Brain Damage.apl
Pink Floyd - 09 - Eclipse.apl

For APE files, either method works, the cue has the advantage of a single file per CD however.

The current method will not work for MP3, FLAC, OGG, etc.

Valissystem · « **Reply #7 on:** August 24, 2004, 06:51:40 pm »

Quote from: Mad_Chemist on August 24, 2004, 05:51:07 pm

Quote from: Valissystem on August 23, 2004, 07:01:10 pm
Cue/mp3 file play support.

2. If the Cue file does not reference a specific path to the mp3 file Media Center cannot find the file to play. MC needs to look for the file in the same directory as the CUE file if the file is not fully path'd.

Otherwise, great new feature!!

I agree. I don't think most people have the full path to the file referenced in the cue file. Otherwise, you can't drag things around without having to change all (400+ in my case) cue files. All other players that support cue sheets just look in the same folder for the music file.

Thank you for adding cue support!

Well it looks like the relative path issue is now taken care of - Great!

However your point about moving things around, still has issues for MC and cuefiles. I quite often move media files around the filesystem within MC so that it updates it's db as you do it. This is one of the nicest features of MC. However with MC, how is it best to do this with CUE file based tracks? At the moment if you try to move the tracks, MC does the "updating databse" dialog and then nothing has changed.

To do this "right" is not so simple, as the correct thing to do if a user moves only some of the tracks is ambiguous for instance. I would think however that it is reasonable that if a user moves all of the tracks from a CUE file as well as the file that is pointed to by that CUE file, MC should move them all to the new directory and update any DB entries appropriately.

Any others with thoughts about this?

GHammer · « **Reply #8 on:** August 24, 2004, 07:19:29 pm »

Quote from: Valissystem on August 24, 2004, 06:51:40 pm

Quote from: Mad_Chemist on August 24, 2004, 05:51:07 pm
Quote from: Valissystem on August 23, 2004, 07:01:10 pm
Cue/mp3 file play support.

2. If the Cue file does not reference a specific path to the mp3 file Media Center cannot find the file to play. MC needs to look for the file in the same directory as the CUE file if the file is not fully path'd.

Otherwise, great new feature!!

I agree. I don't think most people have the full path to the file referenced in the cue file. Otherwise, you can't drag things around without having to change all (400+ in my case) cue files. All other players that support cue sheets just look in the same folder for the music file.

Thank you for adding cue support!

However your point about moving things around, still has issues for MC and cuefiles. I quite often move media files around the filesystem within MC so that it updates it's db as you do it. This is one of the nicest features of MC. However with MC, how is it best to do this with CUE file based tracks? At the moment if you try to move the tracks, MC does the "updating databse" dialog and then nothing has changed.

To do this "right" is not so simple, as the correct thing to do if a user moves only some of the tracks is ambiguous for instance. I would think however that it is reasonable that if a user moves all of the tracks from a CUE file as well as the file that is pointed to by that CUE file, MC should move them all to the new directory and update any DB entries appropriately.

Any others with thoughts about this?

Since it is a complete (rather than per selection as APL) index I'd think the entire package would have to be moved/updated. Not just change the CUE itself to reflect the new selection info.
Or, simply manage it within the database and then it doesn't matter.

My point is that I would not like to see the cue file itself changed. It was accurate when I wrote it, the most that should happen is a move and if moved then the target file needs to go along with it. They are a matched set.

hit_ny · « **Reply #9 on:** August 25, 2004, 03:10:07 am »

Quote from: Valissystem on August 24, 2004, 06:51:40 pm

However your point about moving things around, still has issues for MC and cuefiles. I quite often move media files around the filesystem within MC so that it updates it's db as you do it. This is one of the nicest features of MC. However with MC, how is it best to do this with CUE file based tracks? At the moment if you try to move the tracks, MC does the "updating databse" dialog and then nothing has changed.

To do this "right" is not so simple, as the correct thing to do if a user moves only some of the tracks is ambiguous for instance. I would think however that it is reasonable that if a user moves all of the tracks from a CUE file as well as the file that is pointed to by that CUE file, MC should move them all to the new directory and update any DB entries appropriately.

Any others with thoughts about this?

This is an interesting question.

I organize my collection as albums/mixes (which CUE pertains to) or singles .

So the tracks within a CUE would belong to the album they came from. If I wanted to move things around, i use the tree view and drag albums to their desired location. MC is great this way in keeping things in sync.

If i wanted to keep individual tracks in one place, i might send them to a playlist.

I'm still waiting to hear answers to the questions i posed above.

hit_ny · « **Reply #10 on:** August 25, 2004, 04:29:39 pm »

Quote from: GHammer on August 24, 2004, 07:19:29 pm

My point is that I would not like to see the cue file itself changed. It was accurate when I wrote it, .....

I'm in two minds regarding not writing to cue files (or having the ability to do so)

On the one hand, it makes it easier to do mass corrections to existing cue files given the ease of mass tag editing.

Why not be able to write these changes back to the respective cue files ?

Cue follows a certain convention which if adhered to should not cause any problems.

I was thinking of maybe limiting what gets written, say only Album Artist, Artist, Album, Track Name, Track # for instance. Other information could be stored in the library. Though there is nothing to stop the rest from being written if prefixed by a REM (meaning comment so cue processor skips it)

So if one has the above tags checked as to be written when track info changes, MC understands internally that it needs to update the cue files if applicable or not.

What do people think ?

Valissystem · « **Reply #11 on:** August 26, 2004, 05:30:01 pm »

So having played with this for a couple of days I have a couple of changed suggestions.

Instead of dealing with cue files as it currently does, I think MC should treat them as a way of importing (only) track information contained within a single file. Then tracks should be tracked & maintained seperately as part of the database with all attributes etc. as normal. This implies that tracks (or seperate items in the database) could be defined as sections of a larger file.

This would probably be fine for all purposes except where one wants to transfer information between databases on different machines, or to rebuild a database from the a selection of current files. Therefore, a new file format that is conceptually similar to an APL file, could be used. This is basically a placeholder in the filesystem that will store tag information which can include offsets within a complete media file etc. (Perhaps an APL file could be used - I know that foobar2k does this sort of thing - however I have no fixed opinion on this).

Given that sample accurate seeking is available for any given media file (i.e. currently APE, MP3, OGG at least), this mechanism could be used for a wide range of audio (and perhaps video files) as a useful extension of MC.

Any opinions or other thoughts??

Alex B · « **Reply #12 on:** August 26, 2004, 06:17:37 pm »

Quote

a new file format that is conceptually similar to an APL file, could be used.

I must quote myself:

Quote from: Alex B on August 26, 2004, 09:29:12 am

... I have previously asked for link files. They would represent a copy of the music file in the MC library, hold the tag information and contain a link to the main audio file. The link (filename path) should be editable.

This way also the tags could be different when the same music file (audio data) is used in several albums.

That is already working to some extent with APL files.

Now there is new support for cue files in MC 11. I would love to see a mechanism making APL style link files from cue sheets. (Just like Monkey's Audio MakeAPL tool does, but not only for APE files and with editable link path.)

Those link files could solve some forthcoming cue files related problems, I think. I just installed my first copy of MC 11 and started experimenting with the cue file support.

and

Quote from: Alex B on July 27, 2004, 06:24:12 am

Quote from: Jakester on July 26, 2004, 05:57:26 pm
... I could manually change the filename field for the songs I don't want to keep to point to the one I do want to keep, and manually delete the rest. Not pretty, but wouldn't that work?!

No. One disk file can exist only in one MC Album. You can make your own tags for the other album names, but MC don't handle them as separate albums. The only way to keep them together is to do a playlist for them.

Currently it is possible to have one huge APE file for the whole Album (one CD disk). Monkeys Audio can do APL files for linking a certain position of that APE file to a logical track. An APL file includes also tag information for an individual track. APL files can be imported to MC and used as regular audio files. It is possible to make a copy of an APL file and change e.g. the album tag and keep both in the library.

What we need now is a similar system for individual tracks. A sort of Media Center link file (could be named as .mcl). That would include tag information and a link to the main file. It should support all audio formats. The mechanism to make them could be in Convert Format (of course "Send original files to recycle bin" should be disabled).

There is already support for the APL files. Perhaps just a slight modification is needed.

Valissystem · « **Reply #13 on:** August 26, 2004, 08:35:33 pm »

Quote from: Alex B on August 26, 2004, 06:17:37 pm

Quote
a new file format that is conceptually similar to an APL file, could be used.

I must quote myself:

......

So we're talking about the same thing obviously. Sorry I hadn't seen your posts.

hit_ny · « **Reply #14 on:** August 27, 2004, 12:12:49 am »

First is it possible to add tracks from a cue to a playlist ?

I'm not talking about APE since you already have APL, but rather mp3.

If so, why is a link file required ?

I suggested earlier for MC to be able to understand windows shortcuts as a pointer to files, this is more flexible than an APL like file and applies to any file. For the purpose of handling duplicates. There was never any answer from JRiver re: shortcuts, i guess there is a problem with its implementation.

GHammer · « **Reply #15 on:** August 27, 2004, 06:06:49 am »

CUE files are not imported when you choose Library->Import
Tagging does not appear to work, but I can't be certain on that one. Can someone else try and let me know?
Analyze runs and comes up with all values, but I see nothing written to any file. Maybe in the database only?
Same for album art.

GHammer · « **Reply #16 on:** August 27, 2004, 06:08:42 am »

Quote from: Valissystem on August 26, 2004, 08:35:33 pm

Quote from: Alex B on August 26, 2004, 06:17:37 pm
Quote
a new file format that is conceptually similar to an APL file, could be used.

I must quote myself:

......

So we're talking about the same thing obviously. Sorry I hadn't seen your posts.

Since neither is a CUE file, how about a new thread?

Alex B · « **Reply #17 on:** August 27, 2004, 06:42:53 am »

Quote from: Valissystem on August 26, 2004, 08:35:33 pm

So we're talking about the same thing obviously. Sorry I hadn't seen your posts.

No apologies needed. It is good to see others having the same thoughts. I wasn't sure if anybody really understood what I meant.

Quote from: hit_ny on August 27, 2004, 12:12:49 am

First is it possible to add tracks from a cue to a playlist ?

I don't know yet. I am going the play more with .cue files over the next weekend.

Quote

I'm not talking about APE since you already have APL, but rather mp3.
If so, why is a link file required ?

For tags. You can have a single MP3, APE, MPC, etc for the whole album (or one CD disk). Now you can use .cue, but I don't think it is possible to associate one track from the .cue to many albums.

If you could use a link file (APL style) as I have suggested, it wouldn't matter if the link points to a specific part of a disk image file or to a single track file. You could make copies of that link file, import them and tag them all differently (Album, year, cover art, statistical data, etc). From MC Library's point of view they would be as any other music track files. Only the filesize is different. A link file is about one kilobyte or so.

Also gapless MP3 playback is possible if the link files are pointing to a CD image file.

E.g. With link files you could easily make your own various artists compilation albums without duplicating audio data. You could design cover art for it and give it a nice name and have statistical information for it separately.

I can already do that with APL. Currently the limitations are:

Only the APE format is supported (now MC 11 has an "engine" for other formats).
Uneditable link path (all files must be in the same folder and you cannot rename the audio file). This should be easy to fix.
A mechanism for making APL files inside MC is needed (from a .cue and directly from single audio tracks).

Alex B · « **Reply #18 on:** August 27, 2004, 06:45:48 am »

GHammer,

I think these file formats (.cue and the "extended" .apl) are tightly connected with each other. The "extended" .apl could be a solution for some .cue limitations we are seeing now.

Edit
Actually I tried to write a .cue containing only one song (for a single track MP3). I just tried to see if it could be used as a link. For some reason MC 11 didn't add the entry to the library. Maybe Matt could give us "rules" for .cue writing.

hit_ny · « **Reply #19 on:** August 27, 2004, 07:24:15 am »

Quote from: Alex B on August 27, 2004, 06:42:53 am

For tags. You can have a single MP3, APE, MPC, etc for the whole album (or one CD disk). Now you can use .cue, but I don't think it is possible to associate one track from the .cue to many albums.

If you could use a link file (APL style) as I have suggested, it wouldn't matter if the link points to a specific part of a disk image file or to a single track file. You could make copies of that link file, import them and tag them all differently (Album, year, cover art, statistic data, etc). From MC Library's point of view they would be as any other music track files. Only the filesize is different. A link file is about one kilobyte or so.

E.g. With link files you could easily make your own various artists compilation albums without duplicating audio data. You could design cover art for it and give it a nice name and have statistic information for it separately.

All the above will be possible if one is able to right-click Send to playlist.

Quote from: GHammer on August 27, 2004, 06:06:49 am

- CUE files are not imported when you choose Library->Import
- Tagging does not appear to work, but I can't be certain on that one. Can someone else try and let me know?

I would have expected a file type cue to be selected from the Options to allow Library->Import. If its not there we got to get it put in.

I always wondered how this was done in the APE world with APLs, since there would be duplicate entries for album (APE file +APL). Does one delete the extra entry in MC and just keep the APL ones ?

Tagging along with rating i expect would be stored in the library for the moment.

Wonder what the consensus is regarding writing to the cue files vs database only ?

Alex B · « **Reply #20 on:** August 27, 2004, 08:02:33 am »

Quote

All the above will be possible if one is able to right-click Send to playlist.

How come? If I send a song from the album named "Artist" to a playlist named "Best of Artist" and then change the album tag in that playlist to "Best of Artist" it will also change the original album tag.

Also when I play the song in that playlist the playcount changes for both albums. I can't have separate cover art for them, etc...

Quote

I always wondered how this was done in the APE world with APLs, since there would be duplicate entries for album (APE file +APL). Does one delete the extra entry in MC and just keep the APL ones ?

You have to import just the .apl files. You can also import the .ape and tag it separately if you like. Then you see one extra entry in the library. It can have e.q. different album tag.

I am really going to test CUE files more over the weekend. CUE Support was the reason why I now installed MC 11 for the first time.

hit_ny · « **Reply #21 on:** August 27, 2004, 08:40:52 am »

Quote from: Alex B on August 27, 2004, 08:02:33 am

How come? If I send a song from the album named "Artist" to a playlist named "Best of Artist" and then change the album tag in that playlist to "Best of Artist" it will also change the original album tag.

Why not call the playlist "Best of Artist" and leave the album tags alone.

Quote from: Alex B on August 27, 2004, 08:02:33 am

Also when I play the song in that playlist the playcount changes for both albums. I can't have separate cover art for them, etc...

Ahh... agreed you would need a separate link to the file.

Out of curiosity why is playcount so important to you ?

i tend to go by the length of time i have not listened to a file, so a smartlist of he sort, get me 3star & above tracks that i have not listened to in more than 6 months fo a certain genre.

admittedly this metric would get affected as well.

Quote from: Alex B on August 27, 2004, 08:02:33 am

You have to import just the .apl files. You can also import the .ape and tag it separately if you like. Then you see one extra entry in the library. It can have e.q. different album tag.

I am really going to test CUE files more over the weekend. CUE Support was the reason why I now installed MC 11 for the first time.

Ok...in this case..only the CUE files would need to be imported (for me anyway)

Agreed on the v11 install... i'm trying to create a cloned OS parition on my drive so i can dual boot into v11 whilst leaving my working v10 install safely alone.

GHammer · « **Reply #22 on:** August 27, 2004, 04:16:13 pm »

Quote from: Alex B on August 27, 2004, 06:45:48 am

GHammer,

I think these file formats (.cue and the "extended" .apl) are tightly connected with each other. The "extended" .apl could be a solution for some .cue limitations we are seeing now.

I see something that is not a cue file as not a cue file. And since cue file support is new and being worked on, I'd rather see cue file issues in the cue file thread.

Cue files exist, extended apls do not so it's hard to say they are connected.

Ain't that hard to start a new topic..

Alex B · « **Reply #23 on:** August 27, 2004, 06:26:49 pm »

What is a CUE file? Basically a cue file is an index file for burning Audio CDs from a CD image file. (Correct?)

I think a CUE file as we are going to use it is a text file containing information for playing and handling an audio file in MC.

I think we need CUE files with tag information (in my opinion MC comments in it are OK if they don't disturb other software). Sometimes it might be useful if a CUE file contains information only for one audio track. It could also be useful if that track could be a separate one-track audio file as well as a part of the CD image file.

And I really mean: I think. These are just my first findings after spending one hour with MC 11 and trying to use CUE files with it.

How about the next proposition? When a cue file is imported MC reads the information to the library and makes a new tag holder file (or several files, one for each track). With separate files it would be easier to get all familiar MC tools working with them. In that way also the original cue file stays intact.

There could be two options. Use the CUE file as it is with some limitations or let MC make link files for full support. I have not found any limitations for APL files in MC (except the uneditable link path).

Now I was writing only about the CUE (except one exception).

Alex B · « **Reply #24 on:** August 28, 2004, 07:22:57 am »

Possible bug:

MC 11.0.70 does not seem to always import the last track. I have tried with several DJ mix albums (ripped with EAC & LAME).

The CUE sheets are very basic format, e.g.:

Quote

PERFORMER "DJ XYZ"
TITLE "Album 1"
FILE "DJ XYZ - Album 1.mp3" MP3
TRACK 01 AUDIO
TITLE "Track 01"
PERFORMER "Performer A"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 02 AUDIO
TITLE "Track 02"
PERFORMER "Performer B"
INDEX 01 00:54:17

...etc...until the last track:

TRACK 18 AUDIO
TITLE "Track 18"
PERFORMER "Performer R"
INDEX 01 75:09:66

If I add one more "TRACK 18 AUDIO" line (without any further information) to the end of the CUE file, also the track number 18 gets imported:

Quote

TRACK 18 AUDIO
TITLE "Track 18"
PERFORMER "Performer R"
INDEX 01 75:09:66
TRACK 18 AUDIO

hit_ny · « **Reply #25 on:** August 28, 2004, 07:38:42 am »

Ahh good...we 're testing it. how bout answering the below (using mp3 files)

- Is Audio Analysis possible on tracks within a cue ?

- Does a Locate->Artist/Trackname show all occurrences of a track whether in a cue file or otherwise ? This assumes that the relevant tracks have already been imported into MC.

- Is it possible to right-click a track in the cue and send to playing now ? To take it further is it possible to select tracks from different cue files and send to playing now. What is playback performance like ?

Rands · « **Reply #26 on:** August 28, 2004, 11:16:27 am »

I've noticed the same bug that Alex B reported.

And, please, do not alter the CUE file format (or the CUE files themselves). The CUE file format is, as far as I know, a standard and other programs may or may not choke on a CUE file with non-standard fields.

I'm looking forward to CUE imported files showing their durations. It would also be nice if, during the import, MC checked the MP3's tags for fields that it can't get out of the CUE file (e.g., genre).

Sorry if this stuff has been mentioned already. I'm just getting back into the swing of beta testing MC11 and am catching up with everything.

hit_ny · « **Reply #27 on:** August 28, 2004, 02:53:43 pm »

Quote from: Rands on August 28, 2004, 11:16:27 am

I've noticed the same bug that Alex B reported.

And, please, do not alter the CUE file format (or the CUE files themselves). The CUE file format is, as far as I know, a standard and other programs may or may not choke on a CUE file with non-standard fields.

Agreed...i was referring to prefixing any other non cue specific tags with a REM (remark or comment). Most cue-aware players would ignore anything after a REM.

I was asking about the ability to update the cue file (if desired) with album artist, artist, album, track title, track#. These are the usual fields in a CUE. They would not need to be prefixed with anything just modified in place. FB2k already can do this.

I have a lot of cue files to import so invariably they will be the few errors. Would be nice to mass tag from MC and have those changes saved someplace.

Also we trust MC to correctly tag files, would the same not apply to cue files as well.

Alex B · « **Reply #28 on:** August 28, 2004, 07:06:31 pm »

Quote from: hit_ny on August 28, 2004, 07:38:42 am

- Is Audio Analysis possible on tracks within a cue ?

Yes

Quote

- Does a Locate->Artist/Trackname show all occurrences of a track whether in a cue file or otherwise ? This assumes that the relevant tracks have already been imported into MC.

Yes

Quote

- Is it possible to right-click a track in the cue and send to playing now ? To take it further is it possible to select tracks from different cue files and send to playing now. What is playback performance like ?

Yes and the performance is OK with a P4. There is no difference if you play a file directly or by a CUE file. Actually CUE files are needed only at the import stage. MC does not use them after that. All information is kept in the library.

More bugs:

Quotes
For MC all names must be in quotes. Even if there are no spaces. I had to edit every CUE file because EAC writes single word names without quotes (=common standard):

This is the standard, but not OK for MC:

Quote

PERFORMER "DJ XYZ"
TITLE Album
FILE Album.mp3 MP3
TRACK 01 AUDIO
TITLE Track
PERFORMER "Performer A"
INDEX 01 00:00:00

MC needs this:

Quote

PERFORMER "DJ XYZ"
TITLE "Album"
FILE "Album.mp3" MP3
TRACK 01 AUDIO
TITLE "Track"
PERFORMER "Performer A"
INDEX 01 00:00:00

48 kHz output mode in DSP studio
If usual 44.1 kHz files are played with 48 kHz output mode tracks end too early. A 5-minute track stops at about 4 minutes and 45 seconds and MC starts the next track.

I use the 48 kHz output mode in my laptop, because it resamples anyway to 48 kHz and the integrated circuit is not so high quality.

File conversions
It is possible to convert a CUE track to a single-track file, but there is no system for filenames and no tags are included. MC uses the album file name (+ a sequence number if needed).

CD burning
The duration of the Audio CD burning list stays at zero, because files don't have that information (missing duration information is mentioned earlier in this thread). Data CD burning is also useless because the resulting files don't have tags or useful names.

hit_ny · « **Reply #29 on:** August 29, 2004, 05:03:52 am »

Thanks for the answers Alex B

Quote from: Alex B on August 28, 2004, 07:06:31 pm

Quote
- Is it possible to right-click a track in the cue and send to playing now ? To take it further is it possible to select tracks from different cue files and send to playing now. What is playback performance like ?
Yes and the performance is OK with a P4. There is no difference if you play a file directly or by a CUE file. Actually CUE files are needed only at the import stage. MC does not use them after that. All information is kept in the library.

OK, lets take it a bt further, try picking tracks that are at least half way down or near the end of a cue. How is the performance now ?

I'm impressed there are no adverse effects since MC has to read the mp3s up to the point where the desired track starts.

Quote from: Alex B on August 28, 2004, 07:06:31 pm

CD burning
The duration of the Audio CD burning list stays at zero, because files don't have that information (missing duration information is mentioned earlier in this thread).

Does MC burn the CD successfully at all, are track markers inserted at the correct points ?

Quote from: Alex B on August 28, 2004, 07:06:31 pm

More bugs:

Quotes
All names must be in quotes. Even if there are no spaces. I had to edit every CUE file because EAC writes single word names without quotes:

This is the standard, but not OK for MC:

I suppose in a way we are asking MC to correct the CUE, could be useful for fixing broken cues.

Quote from: Alex B on August 28, 2004, 07:06:31 pm

48 kHz output mode in DSP studio
If usual 44.1 kHz files are played with 48 kHz output mode tracks end too early. A 5-minute track stops at about 4 minutes and 45 seconds and MC starts the next track.

I use the 48 kHz output mode in my laptop, because it resamples anyway to 48 kHz and the integrated circuit is not so high quality.

Curious why you use 48Khz, since the tracks are usually 44.1 khz, It seems like uncessary work to resample to 48khz.

Are you saying you can tell the difference ? ..does 48khz actually sound better than 44.1khz ?

Quote from: Alex B on August 28, 2004, 07:06:31 pm

File conversions
It is possible to convert a CUE track to a single-track file, but there is no system for filenames and no tags are included. MC uses the album file name (+ a sequence number if needed).

If i understand correctly, you are trying to extract single files from an album with a cue ?

MC has access to the trackname, track artist, album & track # from the cue already. I think it would be ok, to tag the file as such.

How the file is actually named on the disk needs to be explored further. I think of extracting a track from a cue as similar to ripping a track from a CD. MC could use the same naming convention for extracted tracks as chosen when ripping CDs.

...What do people think ?

Alex B · « **Reply #30 on:** August 29, 2004, 10:09:13 am »

Quote from: hit_ny on August 29, 2004, 05:03:52 am

OK, lets take it a bt further, try picking tracks that are at least half way down or near the end of a cue. How is the performance now ?

I'm impressed there are no adverse effects since MC has to read the mp3s up to the point where the desired track starts.

I have CUE files for MP3 (80-140 MB) and APE (230-350 MB) albums. I have been jumping randomly from track to track and it seems to be quite fast. At worst the waiting time is a second or so.

Quote

Does MC burn the CD successfully at all, are track markers inserted at the correct points ?

I didn't try to duplicate the original CD. I just added random files to the CD burning list.
MC does not support the cue file burning as Nero or EAC do.

Quote

I suppose in a way we are asking MC to correct the CUE, could be useful for fixing broken cues.

In this case it is a bug. MC reads CUE files incorrectly.

Quote

Curious why you use 48Khz, since the tracks are usually 44.1 khz, It seems like uncessary work to resample to 48khz.

The hardware in my laptop resamples to 48 kHz as I wrote. I think MC does it better. I could start a new thread about this and other output settings. Here is one very interesting link for audiophiles: http://www.gamingforce.com/forums/showthread.php?t=489.

Quote

If i understand correctly, you are trying to extract single files from an album with a cue ?

MC has access to the trackname, track artist, album & track # from the cue already. I think it would be ok, to tag the file as such.

MC can extract and write the audio data to a single file in supported file formats. The tag copying and naming parts are not ready yet. Tags should be whatever there are in the library. CUE files are not used after importing. You can trash them if you like.

Alex B · « **Reply #31 on:** August 29, 2004, 11:03:41 am »

Bugs:

Media Server
Does not work with CUE based tracks. The client sees track entries, but the server cannot send the audio data. (APL tracks work, though APE files are too big and the client is buffering all the time.)

CUE file reading
Foobar2000 reads and plays this:

Quote

PERFORMER "Various Artists"
TITLE "Soulfuric In the House, Bonus CD 3of3"
FILE "D:\Music\SITH_CD3\301.mp3" MP3
TRACK 01 AUDIO
TITLE "Feelin’ Love (Soulsearcher Club Mix)"
PERFORMER "Soulsearcher"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "D:\Music\SITH_CD3\302.mp3" MP3
TRACK 02 AUDIO
TITLE "He Is the Joy (UBP Classic Mix)"
PERFORMER "Donna Allen"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "D:\Music\SITH_CD3\303.mp3" MP3
TRACK 03 AUDIO
TITLE "The Pressure (Jazz-N-Groove Club Mix)"
PERFORMER "Sounds of Blackness"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "D:\Music\SITH_CD3\304.mp3" MP3
TRACK 04 AUDIO
TITLE "Find a Friend"
PERFORMER "DJ John ‘Julius’ Knight Presents Knightime Funk Vol. 4"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "D:\Music\SITH_CD3\305.mp3" MP3
TRACK 05 AUDIO
TITLE "All I Do (Original Club Mix)"
PERFORMER "Cleptomanians Feat. Bryan Chambers"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "D:\Music\SITH_CD3\306.mp3" MP3
TRACK 06 AUDIO
TITLE "Testify (Mousse T’s In a Mood Remix)"
PERFORMER "UBP Presents Jay Williams"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "D:\Music\SITH_CD3\307.mp3" MP3
TRACK 07 AUDIO
TITLE "La Passion de Gozar (Hard-Soul-Furic-Clepto Dup)"
PERFORMER "Hardsoul"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "D:\Music\SITH_CD3\308.mp3" MP3
TRACK 08 AUDIO
TITLE "Give It Up"
PERFORMER "Eminence Feat. Kathy Brown"
INDEX 01 00:00:00

MC needs also this to the end (until it's fixed):

Quote

TRACK 08 AUDIO

Then it can import all entries, but the tracks point to the file "D:\Music\SITH_CD3\301.mp3".

"Filename" tags in the library are like this:
D:\Music\SITH_CD3\301.mp3;1
D:\Music\SITH_CD3\301.mp3;2
D:\Music\SITH_CD3\301.mp3;3 ...etc...

Interesting point is that when I edit them manually in MC to this:
D:\Music\SITH_CD3\301.mp3;1
D:\Music\SITH_CD3\302.mp3;1
D:\Music\SITH_CD3\303.mp3;1 ...etc...

- MC plays them like a charm. So this is a way to make "links".

hit_ny · « **Reply #32 on:** August 29, 2004, 12:18:58 pm »

Quote from: Alex B on August 29, 2004, 10:09:13 am

Quote
Does MC burn the CD successfully at all, are track markers inserted at the correct points ?
I didn't try to duplicate the original CD. I just added random files to the CD burning list.
MC does not support the cue file burning as Nero or EAC do.

I was referring to burning an Audio CD from a list of files (that were taken from differnent cues).

Alex B · « **Reply #33 on:** August 29, 2004, 12:52:14 pm »

Quote

I was referring to burning an Audio CD from a list of files (that were taken from differnent cues).

I didn't go any further, because the duration info stayed at zero. I suppose it will work very well after the duration display is fixed.

By the way, I have now MC 11 installed side by side with MC 10 on two PCs with no complications. I have separate libraries and I am taking care that I don't make any changes with MC 11 to the files I have in the MC 10 library. I do all experimenting with copies. So I suppose you could safely start experimenting by yourself.

And then back to business...

Ogg Vorbis, MusePack and Windows Media Audio can be used.

Filename entries in CUE sheets can be like these:
FILE "Album file.ogg" WAVE
FILE "Album file.mpc" WAVE
FILE "Album file.wma" WAVE

This is good news, because I feel that whole album APE files are too big. I can get a bit better audio quality with Vorbis or MusePack than with MP3 VBR at about 200-250 kbps. Actually in my opinion they are good enough for transcoding to MP3 for portables. I can rip whole albums to APE, convert to OGG or MPC for everyday use and store the APE files for quick future access.

Edit: added WMA

Alex B · « **Reply #34 on:** August 29, 2004, 05:59:29 pm »

This is a CUE file for a single-track MP3 file. It is possible to import it several times. Every instance can have different tags. So the link entry can exist for example in several different best of collections.

Quote

PERFORMER "The Beatles"
TITLE "Help"
FILE "D:\Music\The Beatles\Help\07 - Ticket to Ride.mp3" MP3
TRACK 01 AUDIO
TITLE "Ticket To Ride"
PERFORMER "The Beatles"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 01 AUDIO

It is also possible to import single tracks from CD image files:

Quote

PERFORMER "The Beatles"
TITLE "Help"
FILE "D:\Music\The Beatles\Help\The Beatles - Help (Full Album).ape" WAVE
TRACK 01 AUDIO
TITLE "Yesterday"
PERFORMER "Beatles"
INDEX 01 29:34:52
TRACK 02 AUDIO
TITLE "DELETE THIS ENTRY"
PERFORMER "DELETE THIS ENTRY"
INDEX 01 31:45:25
TRACK 02 AUDIO

Track 02 is needed only at the import stage because MC needs to know when the Track 01 ends.

An other way is to import the full album CUE file and delete the other entries, except the "Yesterday".

Alex B · « **Reply #35 on:** August 30, 2004, 12:55:59 pm »

All together:

0. ~~Needs paths in the filenames~~ fixed
1. No duration information (in the library)
2. The last track is not imported. Needs an extra line.
3. Needs always quotes (single word names are written without)
4. If sample rate is set to 48 kHz (or more) in DSP studio 44.1 kHz files end too early.
5. When tracks are converted tags are not included and there is no system for filenames.
6. CD burning (duration, tags, filename system)
7. Media Server
8. Cue reading (understands only the first filename)

And a small wish list:

Optional "link & tag container" files for track entries (like APL).

Thanks.

Edit: corrected list numbers.

hit_ny · « **Reply #36 on:** September 06, 2004, 02:02:29 am »

Quote from: Alex B on August 30, 2004, 12:55:59 pm

All together:

1. ~~Needs paths in the filenames~~ fixed
2. No duration information (in the library)
2. The last track is not imported. Needs an extra line.
3. Needs always quotes (single word names are written without)
4. If sample rate is set to 48 kHz (or more) in DSP studio 44.1 kHz files end too early.
5. When tracks are converted tags are not included and there is no system for filenames.
6. CD burning (duration, tags, filename system)
7. Media Server
8. Cue reading (understands only the first filename)

And a small wish list:

Optional "link & tag container" files for track entries (like APL).

Thanks.

Good work, am posting this to the bug list, starting with the first 4.

hit_ny · « **Reply #37 on:** September 08, 2004, 03:28:58 am »

All together:

0. ~~Needs paths in the filenames~~ fixed
1. No duration information (in the library)
2. ~~The last track is not imported. Needs an extra line.~~ fixed
3. ~~Needs always quotes (single word names are written without)~~ fixed
4. If sample rate is set to 48 kHz (or more) in DSP studio 44.1 kHz files end too early.
5. When tracks are converted tags are not included and there is no system for filenames.
6. CD burning (duration, tags, filename system)
7. Media Server
8. Cue reading (understands only the first filename)

Not sure i understand if 8 is fixed already

Alex B · « **Reply #38 on:** September 09, 2004, 01:50:02 pm »

All together:

~~0. Needs paths in the filenames~~ fixed
1. No duration information (in the library)
~~2. The last track is not imported. Needs an extra line.~~ fixed
~~3. Needs always quotes (single word names are written without)~~ fixed
~~4. If sample rate is set to 48 kHz (or more) in DSP studio 44.1 kHz files end too early.~~ fixed
5. When tracks are converted tags are not included and there is no system for filenames.
6. CD burning (duration, tags, filename system)
7. Media Server
8. Cue reading (understands only the first filename)

Thanks for the first four and good luck with the rest. (Actually, I don't think luck is needed, just some extra minutes for Matt & co.)

In the meanwhile here are some links for those who are interested about the cue file syntax and cue writing:

http://digitalx.org/cuesheetsyntax.html (syntax)
http://digitalx.org/cuesheetexamples.html (shows examples of the cuesheets with multiple source files)
www.dcsoft.com/cue_mastering_progs.htm (about cuesheet support in several CD burning programs)
www.dcsoft.com/products/cdrcue/index.htm (a cuesheet editor program)
ftp.cdarchive.com/pub/goldenhawk/download/cdrwin.pdf (CDRWIN user's guide. Includes the original cuesheet commands.)

Valissystem · « **Reply #39 on:** September 09, 2004, 05:10:59 pm »

Alex:

Sorry I've been quiet for the last few days, real life intervenes occasionally. What you have been trying seems rather intersting. I had not thought of using multiple cue files to achieve what we had been talking about. I am hoping to grab enough time to look at this in the next week or so.

Do you have any recommended tools, that can help in contructing cue files based on specific subsections of a media file? Obviously one can edit them by hand, however for widespread use this is not going to be straightforward for a lot of people.

Alex B · « **Reply #40 on:** September 09, 2004, 05:32:51 pm »

The first editor I have found is that:

Quote

http://www.dcsoft.com/products/cdrcue/index.htm (a cuesheet editor program)

I haven't really tried it yet. I'll try to comment it later and also search for others.

Valissystem · « **Reply #41 on:** September 09, 2004, 06:09:49 pm »

Quote from: Alex B on September 09, 2004, 05:32:51 pm

The first editor I have found is that:
Quote
http://www.dcsoft.com/products/cdrcue/index.htm (a cuesheet editor program)

I haven't really tried it yet. I'll try to comment it later and also search for others.

I'm looking at it. So far it is interesting. Also found these:

mp3DirectCut http://www.mpesch3.de/ allows editing of cue files for locations

Cuemaster http://cuemaster.host.sk/ another editor with cue file generation from freedb

Still looking for more.

hit_ny · « **Reply #42 on:** September 10, 2004, 09:47:25 am »

Quote from: GHammer on August 27, 2004, 06:06:49 am

CUE files are not imported when you choose Library->Import

Quote

11.0.80 (9/9/04)
.
.
14. Changed: Added the CUE file type to the import dialog.

Yep, we're getting there

hit_ny · « **Reply #43 on:** September 10, 2004, 10:22:31 am »

Quote from: Valissystem on September 09, 2004, 05:10:59 pm

Do you have any recommended tools, that can help in contructing cue files based on specific subsections of a media file? Obviously one can edit them by hand, however for widespread use this is not going to be straightforward for a lot of people.

I vote to have MC be able to create cue files. The less 3rd party tools used the better

What instances would you want this:
- ripping a CD
- creating a mix of different tracks, though one could save this as a playlist. MC could create a cue file of this selection, but i'm trying to understnad why this is reqd ?
- did i miss any ?

If MC could create CUE files, could we trust it to modify those CUE files as well if required.

Quote from: Rands on August 28, 2004, 11:16:27 am

And, please, do not alter the CUE file format (or the CUE files themselves). The CUE file format is, as far as I know, a standard and other programs may or may not choke on a CUE file with non-standard fields.

Quote from: GHammer on August 24, 2004, 07:19:29 pm

My point is that I would not like to see the cue file itself changed. It was accurate when I wrote it, the most that should happen is a move and if moved then the target file needs to go along with it. They are a matched set.

I was hoping to get some consensus here.

It would be nice if there was an option to save changes/corrections made to cue tracks imported into the library, to the original cue file.

By modifications i am referring to album artist, album, track number, name and artist. Not asking for any non standard tags to be added to the cue.

GHammer · « **Reply #44 on:** September 10, 2004, 10:42:17 am »

Well... yes I can see your point on that. But I'm curious why the artist/etc is changing after you have the cue written?

But sure, a better method than a text editor is needed.

hit_ny · « **Reply #45 on:** September 10, 2004, 11:58:41 am »

Quote from: GHammer on September 10, 2004, 10:42:17 am

Well... yes I can see your point on that. But I'm curious why the artist/etc is changing after you have the cue written?

Its mostly corrections/additions. When the CD was ripped sometimes the track information is not completely accurate. I have cue files that predate MC by quite a while, since i did not have a program that allowed me to drill down with the ease that MC has so i did not correct them at the time.

Also i save any changes made to the tags to the files as it seems like a more complete way of doing things, rather than having it only in the library. Of course not all the fields just the main ID3v2 ones, the MC proprietary ones stay in the library.

Or take this for example

artist x feat artist y - tracktitle

gets changed to (personal preference of course)

artist x - tracktitle (feat.artist y)

so when i do a locate on artist x i can see all tracks done by that artist regardless of who artist x colloborated with.

i tend to do mass corrections like this from time to time.

Rands · « **Reply #46 on:** September 14, 2004, 01:08:35 pm »

Quote from: Mad_Chemist on September 13, 2004, 09:41:49 pm

I like the idea of MC editing cue sheets. I get so many cue sheets that are just a mess. If you don't want your cue sheets altered, couldn't you just make them read only?

Making them read-only would probably cause MC to give an error each time it encounters that: 'Unable to write changes to CUE sheet. Click OK or RETRY' or something similar.

GHammer · « **Reply #47 on:** September 15, 2004, 12:26:29 am »

The support in .82 is excellent. Imports the duration, genre, year. Most importantly, it imports them now without having to use any workarounds at all. Conversions work fine too.

Thanks again Matt!

To those who use CUE files to build compilations, sounds like a cool thing. I do not do compilations, I simply use playlists for that. But I'm curious, on the DJ mixes, do other apps honor/use the album artist field?

My point on not changing CUE files is not that there aren't the odd change you need to make. Personally, I have made many with EAC/APE and not had one that was not what I wanted. But I don't download so I imagine that is where bad info comes from.

My point is that things like Tool Version, etc do not belong in any media file. MC has a library, it creates 'fingerprints', it can keep that sort of data in the library. 'Common' metadata is all that should be written to a CUE or other audio files.

My 2 yuan on the subject.

hit_ny · « **Reply #48 on:** September 16, 2004, 12:51:01 am »

Quote from: GHammer on September 15, 2004, 12:26:29 am

The support in .82 is excellent. Imports the duration, genre, year. Most importantly, it imports them now without having to use any workarounds at all. Conversions work fine too.

does this take care of :

5. When tracks are converted tags are not included and there is no system for filenames.

Do we agree on these outstanding itemso n Alex's list ?

6. CD burning (duration, tags, filename system)
7. Media Server
8. Cue reading (understands only the first filename)

to which i would like to add another item

9. Ability to save changes to the cue sheet if said tag is ticked as save to file in Options.

Quote from: GHammer on September 15, 2004, 12:26:29 am

My point is that things like Tool Version, etc do not belong in any media file. MC has a library, it creates 'fingerprints', it can keep that sort of data in the library. 'Common' metadata is all that should be written to a CUE or other audio files.

Agreed.

GHammer · « **Reply #49 on:** September 16, 2004, 01:14:06 am »

Quote from: hit_ny on September 16, 2004, 12:51:01 am

Quote from: GHammer on September 15, 2004, 12:26:29 am
The support in .82 is excellent. Imports the duration, genre, year. Most importantly, it imports them now without having to use any workarounds at all. Conversions work fine too.

does this take care of :

5. When tracks are converted tags are not included and there is no system for filenames.

No, but that does not work for APE files either.
I convert an APE to MP3 I get a file with no tag info at all.
So, it's a problem alright, just not a CUE support problem.

Sorry, what do you mean "system for filenames"?

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