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Author Topic: Advice on music format please?  (Read 2433 times)

jdbrown

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Advice on music format please?
« on: October 26, 2004, 02:10:37 pm »
Looking to begin ripping all my CDs for use in MC11.  Looking thru the forum, I see advice to use lossless encoding versus something like MP3.  So, assuming I go with lossless, what are the pros/cons of the different encoding formats for use in MC and to future-proof.  I don't really know much about any of them.

Thanks.
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LonWar

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Re:Advice on music format please?
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2004, 02:58:58 pm »
Lossless is Lossless, there is no real difference with them...

I like ape, the Author, Matt is also a programmer for MC...

Needless to say, you always get the latest encoder...
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paulr

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Re:Advice on music format please?
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2004, 03:42:22 pm »
Lossless is the only future proof method of compression.  You will always be able to convert those files back to the original WAV if you need to.  If you use a lossy format, you are stuck with what you have - you never want to convert between lossy formats because the sound quality will be degraded with each conversion.

The different lossless codecs (and some comments) are:
1.  APE - developed by a member of the J River team.  Will always have full support.  Best compression and low CPU usage.
2.  FLAC - open source, has some hardware support, not fully supported by MC.  Good compression and very low cpu usage.
3.  WMA Lossless - Microsoft format.  WMA-L is probably a perfectly good format, but I have issues with some of the DRM aspects of MS software, so I don't use this.

If you use a lossless codec, then you will always be able to convert your files to the latest and greatest lossy codec that portable devices may use in the future.  All lossless codecs provide equal-to-original sound quality.  All are also future proof (all you need is to make sure you always have a decoder for the format you choose).
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jdbrown

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Re:Advice on music format please?
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2004, 04:28:06 pm »
Quote from: paulr on October 26, 2004, 03:42:22 pm
Lossless is the only future proof method of compression.  You will always be able to convert those files back to the original WAV if you need to.  If you use a lossy format, you are stuck with what you have - you never want to convert between lossy formats because the sound quality will be degraded with each conversion.

The different lossless codecs (and some comments) are:
1.  APE - developed by a member of the J River team.  Will always have full support.  Best compression and low CPU usage.
2.  FLAC - open source, has some hardware support, not fully supported by MC.  Good compression and very low cpu usage.
3.  WMA Lossless - Microsoft format.  WMA-L is probably a perfectly good format, but I have issues with some of the DRM aspects of MS software, so I don't use this.

If you use a lossless codec, then you will always be able to convert your files to the latest and greatest lossy codec that portable devices may use in the future.  All lossless codecs provide equal-to-original sound quality.  All are also future proof (all you need is to make sure you always have a decoder for the format you choose).

Thanks, this is the info I was looking for.  When you say that APE will always have full support, you mean within MC itself right?  Is APE proprietery to MC or is it supported by other decoders beside MC?  
Finally, is there a quick/easy way to convert to MP3 from APE within MC when I want to download to a portable device?

Edit: Is APE the same as Monkey Audio lossless codec?


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paulr

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Re:Advice on music format please?
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2004, 04:35:47 pm »
Quote from: jdbrown on October 26, 2004, 04:28:06 pm
Thanks, this is the info I was looking for.  When you say that APE will always have full support, you mean within MC itself right?  Is APE proprietery to MC or is it supported by other decoders beside MC?  
Finally, is there a quick/easy way to convert to MP3 from APE within MC when I want to download to a portable device?

MC will always support APE fully but it is not proprietary to MC.  I frequently use dBPowerAmp Converter to convert FLAC and SHN files that I download from etree or furthurnet to APE before I import them into MC.  APE is also supported in many other players (foobar2000, WinAmp, etc.).

I believe a recent version of MC11 added the ability to convert APE to MP3 (or whatever) on the fly when transferring to a portable, but I can't really say much about this because I don't have a portable.
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BullishDad

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Re:Advice on music format please?
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2004, 09:46:25 pm »
If you have a relatively small collection (say under 2000 tracks) and plenty of hard drive space, you might want to consider leaving the WAV files as your lossless version.  This can be convenient because WAV is supported by plenty of hardware and software.  

I keep WAV and MP3 formats on my PC.  I play the WAV files on my stereo system and use the MP3 files for portable use.
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Matt

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Re:Advice on music format please?
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2004, 09:51:20 pm »
Quote from: BullishDad on October 26, 2004, 09:46:25 pm
If you have a relatively small collection (say under 2000 tracks) and plenty of hard drive space, you might want to consider leaving the WAV files as your lossless version.  This can be convenient because WAV is supported by plenty of hardware and software.  

I keep WAV and MP3 formats on my PC.  I play the WAV files on my stereo system and use the MP3 files for portable use.

WAV files don't have error checking or tagging.  To me, those are both crucial.

Since APE is free and open source, you'll always be able to get your original WAV files back.
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Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

jdbrown

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Re:Advice on music format please?
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2004, 08:20:01 am »
Quote from: Matt on October 26, 2004, 09:51:20 pm
Quote from: BullishDad on October 26, 2004, 09:46:25 pm
If you have a relatively small collection (say under 2000 tracks) and plenty of hard drive space, you might want to consider leaving the WAV files as your lossless version.  This can be convenient because WAV is supported by plenty of hardware and software.  

I keep WAV and MP3 formats on my PC.  I play the WAV files on my stereo system and use the MP3 files for portable use.

WAV files don't have error checking or tagging.  To me, those are both crucial.

Since APE is free and open source, you'll always be able to get your original WAV files back.

Where do I get APE?  Is it the same or related to Monkey Audio because Google keeps bringing that up.
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Matt

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Re:Advice on music format please?
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2004, 08:40:40 am »
Monkey's Audio makes APE files.  ( www.monkeysaudio.com )
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Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

JimH

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Re:Advice on music format please?
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2004, 08:44:56 am »
Ape is the same as Monkey's Audio.  It comes with Media Center.
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jdbrown

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Re:Advice on music format please?
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2004, 08:58:07 am »
Thanks guys!
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Pogle

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Re:Advice on music format please?
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2004, 04:53:43 pm »
Lossless codecs typically produce much bigger files than lossy ones.
I've put everything into Ogg Vorbis which is lossy but excellent quality. Unfortunately it limits your choice of portable but Iriver players are excellent and have the added advantage of rhyming with J-river.
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Berg

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Re:Advice on music format please?
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2004, 08:25:29 pm »
The real downside IMHO with lossy format is the long term implications.

With the rapid advances in technology, whatever "perfect"/"ideal" encoding format today will be replaced by something better in a year or two. While there is no question that today's format will still be usable, new hardware/solutions will leverage the new encoding formats.

With a lossless format such as FLAC (my preference) or APE, one will only need a application to convert the exisitng file to the new format.

With a lossy format, the same conversion will be possible but not without a loss in quality. Fast forward 10 years, two, three or four format transitions, and the quality loss will really add up.

Yes, lossless format files are significantly larger but with the per Gb cost of today's hard drives, the cost of your time re-ripping your collection or quality loss is more expensive than the larger  file sizes IMHO.

My two cents.
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