INTERACT FORUM

Mastiff is the reigning expert on this topic.  He's written up his own installation.  You can find a link to it in the FAQ near the top of this board.  He also tends to find threads like this.  Part bloodhound, I think.

Also try a search here for multizone, multi-zone, or multi zone.

We are getting steadily more interest from the home audio installers.

The best approach might be to try MC11 and see how far you can get.

You can always accept sound in and play it out.

Linking multiple zones has limited support.  It may work.

The Crestron guy has pretty high conidence about his solution.  :-)

In my personal experience (both as a home A/V installer and as a corporate A/V wonk) with Crestron equipment, he should have confidence.  Crestron equipment WILL work, however ... God help your friend should he ever decide to replace one of the pieces of equipment.  In many cases (all cases where I work) this will involve re-hiring the Crestron rep to come back and re-program the system for the new piece of equipment.

At an additional cost of course.  At my company, we have a BUNCH of crestron touchpads and whatnot that have functions we haven't used in years, because it is so costly to hire someone to come back to re-program the things to work with the new projector, or Plasma Screen, or power amp, or echo canceller box, or whatever ... Nice job security for the Crestron guy, not so nice for your friend!

I like the Crestron stuff, don't get me wrong, but I like your plan better.

One thing I might think about though, instead of running everything off of one PC (which also puts you in serious danger should a motherboard, RAM stick, system drive, etc fail) consider a few lightweight client PCs running MC in "client" mode and accessing the "mothership" MC machine running as a MC server.  They don't need to be monster machines to be clients only, and then you don't have to worry about multi-zone stuff as much.  Just set up a little HTPC anywhere he wants a High-Def TV!  Also, make sure that the drives holding the data are in a RAID 5 (or better) array either on the "mothership" server, or on a separate box (maybe a linux SAMBA server).  Don't want to lose all that stuff!

Nope.  Those are the two downsides to doing it that way (though I think that #2 has been reported often enough here and Matt may take a crack at it with v11).

Of course, I haven't really figured out how the Play History takes effect even when playing from the "main" library.  Does the number of plays/last played only tick when the file completes playing (meaning do they have to play in their entirety)?

And are you able to get synchronized playback with multiple zones either (I suppose I could turn on my onboard sound and find out, I've just never bothered)?

Jim, it's the other way around. Bloodhounds has a lot of mastiff in them.  

glynor, do you have very bad experiences with computers? I have been using computers for many years (more years than I like to think about...) and the last ten years the only real problems I have had has been while experimenting. If the guy has money enough to even consider a stupidly expensive Crestron system (my brother's company has one, and it took me all of two hours to program a NetRemote ccf/Girder GML that outperformed it for a fraction of the price!) he can afford a server with redundant power supply, RAID configured disks and extra CPU/motherboard/RAM laying around. Even a full extra computer won't be that expensive, and then it's only the disks that needs moving. Still, this is just totally overkill, the time between failure on stuff that's good (Aopen, Asus, MSI, Western Digital, Maxtor and so on) is so long that it's not necessary to do anything, except that I would spring for the raid system. I solve the problem with backup images and a full backup of my whole media collection and library, but that will only work for somebody with a more than basic knowledge of computers.

1) Can media center (version 11 I guess), support 8 zones of output audio?  I know with the kS driver set, it should be possible to use a 7.1 sound card to drive 4 zones each, and use two cards to get 8 zones.  Is there a limit on zones supported?

2) Can I use the digital out on these cards to feed to media center system with digital audio (where the zones are being fed different signals than the digital out), or do I need a different card to drive digital out?

3) Can media center switch analog or digital inputs into the zones for output?  That is, if I have an XM radio tuner outputing analog out, can this be fed to a card and then drive 1 or more zones with that signal?  What if it's a digital input?  Is there a limit on digital inputs?

4) Can internet radio stations be "tuned" by media center and fed to the selected zones?  Can different zones listen to different internet radio stations?

5) Is it possible to command media center to feed the same signal to multiple zones?  That is, to have all zones play from the same audio source?

6) How does volume control work on the different zones?  Should I attempt to solve that problem with local attentuation in the room, or can all the levels that drive the amps be controlled from media center too?

7) I think it should be possible to control power to the amps using girder (and IR controlled switches), but is it possible for media center to initiate a "power on" script when the zone first comes active, or do I need to do that from netremote?

Why is it that none of the audio and home automation contractors out there use this technology instead of crestron style stuff?  Noone in the business seems to even consider PC based software solutions?  I'm comfortable supporting it for my friend, and may even go this way in my house later if it works out well, but this seems to have a lot of advanatages compared with the old-style technology.

1. You mean kX drivers. I would actually recommend a different version: Three 5.1 cards, like Audigy 5.1 or Live! 5.1. That will give you two extra channels. And you may need them... Another thing is that for longer runs I'd recommend using SPDIF, especially if the sound is going to a midrange to high-end system. But then you can only have one zone per sound card.

2. Use another card for that.

3. I would use another sound card and feed a SPDIF signal via a splitter cable to digital inputs on the other zones. That way a button in NetRemote could get Girder to mute or unmute that input on any zone that needs it.

4. Yes and no. I don't think MC can send internet radio to anything else than the default sound card, so solution number 3, with perhaps another program running the Internet radio stations  could be a solution.

5. Yes. Use one of the redundant zones from 1 (I said you'd find use for them!) and feed digital out from that zone into another digital input on the other sound cards. Then you can mute and unmute the signal on that input from NetRemote/Girder.

6. It's always most flexible with local volume control, I use that in my system. If you want the best of both worlds, have IR emitters in each zone, so NetRemote can control the volume on the amp.

7. It's of course possible for the active zone, using Girder and DVDSpy, the problem is that DVDSpy isn't multi-zone aware. If you could get direct access to info from MC without using DVDSpy, it should be possible, though.

8. Dough. Moolah. Bucks. The allmighty dollar. Simple as that. They make a lot more money on the Crestron stuff, especially since any client can learn to do stuff themselves with Girder and NetRemote in a short time. So that would be digging their own grave.

Hope this helps a bit.

You're welcome! Jack of some trades, tzar of one, huh?  

Jim, for once I totally agree with your editing - it was cluttering up an informative thread!  

glynor, I got to admit that I have a few sattellites myself, but they're mainly for NetRemote use (even though they are rather fast PCs with high-end graphics cards, but then I'm the kind of guy who wouldn't kill two birds with a stone, I'd prefer to use a minigun like "Ol' Painless" in "Predator"! In fact, if you look up the word "over engineered" in the dictionary, you'll see pictures of several things I have built in my house. Like the record shelves built mainly with 2x4 material!), but they still are used for a bit of surfing as well, and even netradio every now and then.

Wow! I didn't even know that was possible!

Sorry, my brain's been on vacation for a few days... Here's the answers I can give you:

The A/V contractors that he's been referred to all push the fully integrated Creston approach, but I can't implement all of what he wants in one shot like they can, so it helps me to break things up a bit.  

Actually you can, but that will demand a lot of homework first. Crestron is turnkey, yes, but that's because they normally program it before they install it. And they have a rather large base of unit setyps to choose between. But so does the combination of NetRemote and Girder.

Also, his speakers are all wired directly to his media room, so driving them locally would require some contractor coming in to rip open the walls to splice the speaker wire to enable that to happen.  Not that big a deal, but not something I want to have him do unless absolutely needed.  After all it was wired perfectly for a Crestron system! :-)

Not a problem. Get a bunch of cheap (why not used?) receivers or integrated amps, perferably with remote control. Then set the volume of those amps in such a matter that full volume from the sound card and MC doesn't blow the speakers or the house owner's ears (well, if he's like me, it will probably be his wife's ears that decides it...). Then you can use MC's internal volume control, so there's no need for any extra complications. Fire the output from the sound cards directly into those amps, and you're good to go. Remember that one five channel amp will give you two stereo zones and one mono zone, so it doesn't have to be that expensive. And you can put up touch screen panels with NetRemote (preferably based on some 32 bit Windows version or a later model CE) to control it, or even use cheap IR remotes with a remote extender (like the X-10 Powermid) to send the IR signal to the place you have the computers and the IR receiver. That way you won't have to see any computres or stuff in that room. Also you can use my system for choosing playlists, together with the plug-in for play list creation and XML Export to make printouts, so anybody can look up any album in that printout and simply punch in the necessary digits (like in my systems punching 666 will play Merciful Fate's Don't Break the Oath (classical black metal, of course...). Then the only thing needed in the room is the IR remote, the printout and the IR extender. Very neat and wife friendly!

Mastiff, thanks very much for your explanations - they help a lot.  I too have found PC's to be very reliable, even running windows, if you strip off excess software and dedicate them to a single function.  Then they work OK, and computers are cheap enough these days, even quite powerful ones that there is no reason to combine functions.

Exactly the way I think, even though I do have dual functions on my multi-zone computers - one is also the main server on the net and the other one is a home theater PC as well.

Using a full ATX system should have room for about 4 PCI sound cards, but I could go USB connected if needed to get the channel count up.  8 cards is a bit much, but are you saying that I can get 8 pairs of line outs by using 3 5.1 cards and not use the kX drivers?  I have no experience with multiple sound card configs so this is shaky ground for me.  

No, I'm saying that with the kX drivers you can get three zones (or pairs of line outs) from each 5.1 card, so three cards is nine zones, and four is 12. I don't know how high it's possible to go, though. And yes, you can use cheap USB sound cards as well, I use one for music to the HT (since I don't want to go into the receiver's menu and set it to stereo instead of surround I have another optical SPDIF out connected to it, so I simply choose a different input, with the sound set to stereo when playing music.

I see what you are getting at by using SPDIF inputs and muting to get synced sound - you basically play nothing in a zone, but unmute the digital in to get the zone 1 sound playing elsewhere.  I guess you could use this for paging too, which could be helpful (my next project with him is to use homeseer for some lighting and HVAC control that the Crestron guy wants him to use other technology for).  

Can netremote present a clean interface for this kind of zone synchronization?   The configs I have seen so far don't seem to present a UI that does this sort of thing, but I haven't pursued this element in depth yet.  

Yes, it can be used for paging and just about anything you want to. The two main limitations when it comes to a setup with NetRemote and Girder are really your imagination and your ability to implement it. The first part I can't help you with, but the second part is easy to get help with, go to the NetRemote and Girder boards at www.promixis.com, there's a lot of helpful people there. And NetRemote can present a clean interface for just about anything, perhaps except for taking out the trash...   It all depens on how you want to do it. Creating setups is pretty easy, really.

I have heard that MC11 might support this kind of synchronization in a more elegant way - does anyone here have more authoritative info on whether or not it will?

Yes, it does support zone sync, but I haven't been able to get it good enough, if you need 100 % sync. If a few tenths of a second doesn't bother you (like playing the same music in the bathroom and the living room in a party) then it's ready.

Also, he does have the CAT5 wiring to support IR backhaul for volume control, so I can make that work if needed.  But if he has a bunch of netremote clients (one in each zone), I assume that can be handled with wifi and not backhauling IR.  I think making playlists and selecting them in different zones with traditional IR remotes seems a little complicated for my friend, and if he can pay for a few dell axim's that run NR, I think that would be an easier way to do room control.  Also, this would obviate the need to cut into the wall to add a pad for local volume control too.  

But of course! For the money he saves not buying Crestron I'm sure he can get a house full of Axims! And having them in the cradle means that they can be running all the time, so there's no connect delay at all. Of course you will then map the volume buttons for every Axim to control the main volume in the zone they're mounted in. And you can use for instance Arkon car holders as wall holders if you don't want to have the cradle, but I would suggest putting the cradle on a small shelf or something.

I just wish I could point him at a contractor that can do this and support it, but he's enough of a friend that I don't want to see him pay 10X what he needs to for a lot less functionality, and I know he's going to want changes that will cost a lot of money to implement if he went the Crestron approach, and I don't want to learn how to program a Crestron system either.  :-(

Then you're a better friend than most! And  Crestron is quickly becoming old school, but of course custom installers don't want to listen to that, since they make a lot of money both supporting and creating those systems. If everybody could make their own systems with NetRemote and Girder, they would loose a lot of money...

Again, thanks for the replies and thanks in advance for continuing to help me.  If I do convince him to go this route, then I'll document what I do so the path will be easier for the next guy.  

No problem, and you could have him look at my page, at what I have done (even though it hasn't been updated for a few months), I would say that it tells a lot about what's possible with this combination.