Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[RoderickGI]

Thanks for the new recording rules functionality!  

21.0.18 (10/26/2015)

8. NEW: A new system of setting up television subscription recording.
10. Changed: TV subscription recording rule name and program name are independent of each other and can be independently edited on the subscription wizard.

I've had a quick look at the new Recording Rules functionality. Haven't tested if recordings are created yet, but looked at the rules editing capability and the overall functionality.

First, existing rules seem to have come across to the new functionality very well, although most of my rules were broad and simple with the previous functionality, so the conversion was simple. Nicely done though.

Second, it took me a while to work out how to add more brackets into the rules. I did find the tool tip eventually though and worked it out. (See first image those who are still wondering.) We may need to advertise that broadly when the functionality goes live.

Third, I found one little inconsistency in that the rules can't be edited directly, but the backspace still functions, and deletes the character to the left of the cursor. That mucks up the rules no end. Unless or until the rules can be edited directly, I suggest that the backspace be disabled just as all other keyboard input is disabled. Also as the rules, or any part of them, can be selected, a quick click in the "Rules" field and then a backspace deletes the whole rule. Oops! I think it would be better to require users to delete rules one by one in the "Modify Rules"/"Edit TV Recording Rules" dialogue.

Fourth, while the TV subscription recording rule name and program name are independent now, I could not find any way to edit the program name. I could easily edit the recording rule name though. So either the description is wrong, or I'm missing something, or the edit functionality for the program name doesn't work. Note that as the recording rule name is what is shown in the recording rule listing, I don't think the program name needs to be editable, but the description of the functionality should be fixed.

Fifth and last, I would still like to be able to add concatenation of rules using a "NOT" operator. In terms of input, there is still one type of bracket that could be used to designate NOT, the "{}" brackets.

As an example of where I might use a NOT operator is when recording Doctor Who, if both the Series and Name are "Doctor Who", I know this is a repeat and don't want to record it. This is one way our broadcaster obfuscates their EPG data to hide repeats. So I want a rule like this;

([Name]="Doctor Who" or [Series]="Doctor Who") NOT ([Name]="Doctor Who" [Series]="Doctor Who")

Interpreting this says; If Series or Name contains "Doctor Who" record the program, but if Series and Name contain "Doctor Who" don't record the program.

The rule I need may even be more specific. i.e.

([Name]="Doctor Who" or [Series]="Doctor Who") NOT ([Name]=[Doctor Who] [Series]=[Doctor Who])

Which says; If Series or Name contains "Doctor Who" record the program, but if Series and Name are exactly "Doctor Who" don't record the program.

In this case, and I assume for all cases, NOT would explicitly mean "AND NOT".

The second image shows the closest I can get to that, but it would do the wrong thing.

[blgentry]

Don't these rules support the standard minus operator?  As in:

Code: [Select]

-[Series]="Doctor Who"
Specific to your example, you're describing exclusive or, also known as XOR.  "Match on either one, but not both".  You can emulate XOR with:

(A and Not(B)) or (B and Not(A))

In MC expression language that should work out to:

Code: [Select]

([Name]="Doctor Who" and -[Series]="Doctor Who") or ([Series]="Doctor Who" and -[Name]="Doctor Who")
You may need an outer set of parenthesis to make the middle OR work.  I don't have TV support on MC21 for Mac, so I can't easily test this.

Brian.

[Yaobing]

Second, it took me a while to work out how to add more brackets into the rules. I did find the tool tip eventually though and worked it out. (See first image those who are still wondering.) We may need to advertise that broadly when the functionality goes live.

I was afraid that people might miss the whole bracket thingy.  I took the design directly out of the existing Smartlist editing tool.

Third, I found one little inconsistency in that the rules can't be edited directly, but the backspace still functions, and deletes the character to the left of the cursor. That mucks up the rules no end. Unless or until the rules can be edited directly, I suggest that the backspace be disabled just as all other keyboard input is disabled.

Thanks for reporting this.  Matt fixed it.

Also as the rules, or any part of them, can be selected, a quick click in the "Rules" field and then a backspace deletes the whole rule. Oops! I think it would be better to require users to delete rules one by one in the "Modify Rules"/"Edit TV Recording Rules" dialogue.

Yup, there is an "X" on the right hand side of each rule and it should be used to delete individual rules.  The Rules edit box should not be editable in anyway.

Fourth, while the TV subscription recording rule name and program name are independent now, I could not find any way to edit the program name. I could easily edit the recording rule name though. So either the description is wrong, or I'm missing something, or the edit functionality for the program name doesn't work. Note that as the recording rule name is what is shown in the recording rule listing, I don't think the program name needs to be editable, but the description of the functionality should be fixed.

Ah.  I have to check, what we now use for recording filename.  Other than that, the program name is really of no use now, since we allow multiple rules to be added (and one of them might be [name]=[Doctor Who]).

Fifth and last, I would still like to be able to add concatenation of rules using a "NOT" operator. In terms of input, there is still one type of bracket that could be used to designate NOT, the "{}" brackets.

As an example of where I might use a NOT operator is when recording Doctor Who, if both the Series and Name are "Doctor Who", I know this is a repeat and don't want to record it. This is one way our broadcaster obfuscates their EPG data to hide repeats. So I want a rule like this;

([Name]="Doctor Who" or [Series]="Doctor Who") NOT ([Name]="Doctor Who" [Series]="Doctor Who")

Interpreting this says; If Series or Name contains "Doctor Who" record the program, but if Series and Name contain "Doctor Who" don't record the program.

The rule I need may even be more specific. i.e.

([Name]="Doctor Who" or [Series]="Doctor Who") NOT ([Name]=[Doctor Who] [Series]=[Doctor Who])

Which says; If Series or Name contains "Doctor Who" record the program, but if Series and Name are exactly "Doctor Who" don't record the program.

In this case, and I assume for all cases, NOT would explicitly mean "AND NOT".

The second image shows the closest I can get to that, but it would do the wrong thing.

As blgentry suggested, you can use "does not contain" in each individual rule.  So the rules that you need are:

([Name]="Doctor Who" or [Series]="Doctor Who") (-[Name]="Doctor Who" or -[Series]="Doctor Who")

[Yaobing]

I just added these changes for the next build:

3. Changed: Added "is not" operator for editing TV recording rules involving "Name", "Series", and "Description".
4. Changed: "Modify Rules" is renamed "Edit Rules" on TV subscription wizard page.

Now you will be able to do this:
([Name]="Doctor Who" or [Series]="Doctor Who") (-[Name]=[Doctor Who] or -[Series]=[Doctor Who])

By the way, RoderickGI, didn't you suggest that we put program name in the Series field (when there is no separate Series name) if a show is flagged as episodic?  Would that automatically be excluded by the above rules?

[RoderickGI]

Specific to your example, you're describing exclusive or, also known as XOR.  "Match on either one, but not both".  You can emulate XOR with:

(A and Not(B)) or (B and Not(A))

In MC expression language that should work out to:

Code: [Select]

([Name]="Doctor Who" and -[Series]="Doctor Who") or ([Series]="Doctor Who" and -[Name]="Doctor Who")

Thanks Brian for reminding me of this solution. My skills in this area are a little rusty, so that is a big help. I'll have to get up to speed again with these sorts of tricks.

Yaobing, that is all great. The "is not" operator should help with some rules. Sensible name change for the button as well.

I have implemented your version of the rule I was looking for, which took me a little while to understand the logic of, and it works fine in selecting Doctor Who recordings. This one, which could be expressed as ((A or B) and (Not(A) or Not(B)));

Code: [Select]

([Name]="Doctor Who" or [Series]="Doctor Who") (-[Name]="Doctor Who" or -[Series]="Doctor Who")
I can see that there is going to be a little bit of forum support required to get people up to speed on this (including me!), but that is okay.

By the way, RoderickGI, didn't you suggest that we put program name in the Series field (when there is no separate Series name) if a show is flagged as episodic?  Would that automatically be excluded by the above rules?

Yes, that was my suggestion, so that a program from a Series would at least get a value in [Series] that was a little meaningful, rather than being an orphaned recording. So if a Doctor Who episode had an EPG <title> = "Doctor Who: The Zygon Invasion", at least a new Series of that name be created, with the same Episode name. This would help in cleaning up recordings. The program would appear in Theatre View with the new Series name, rather than never appear in that view, and be lost in Recent recordings, unless I went looking.

Also correct, implementing that suggestion would break the rules above. But I think it is more important that a misidentified episode be visible in the Theatre View Series view, rather than have it never appear in that view. Maybe you could allow a rule of -[series]=[name] to identify when that happens. It doesn't look like the rules can use field/tag names that way at the moment.

The complexity is just trying to get around poor EPG data, and avoid recording too many repeats. Maybe I should just be looking at using Expressions in Tagging section of Recording Rules instead of asking you implement that suggestion. To be honest I haven't checked to see if expressions work in that area, with custom tagging. Must check.

BTW, congratulations on the design of how the rule work between version of MC. I installed MC21.0.18 on my HTPC, changed rules, then reviewed and edited the same rules on my Workstation PC running MC21.0.16. Nothing bad happened. The functionality in both version co-existed quite well. Even editing an saving a .18 rule in .16 worked fine, just changing the rule name back to the program name, which was fine.


Further rambling. Not essential reading.
In fact take a look at the image I have attached. You can see that "Doctor Who" is shown on the primary channel (2) with a full Series, Name, and Description. It is then repeated on the secondary channel (22) with the same details, and then repeated again with a Description of just "Doctor Who".

A. If my suggested change hadn't been implemented, I would use a rule, including an "is not" operator, of;

Code: [Select]

([Name]="Doctor Who" or [Series]="Doctor Who") (-[Name]="Doctor Who" or -[Series]="Doctor Who") (-[Description]=[Doctor Who])
B. If my suggested change had been implemented, I would use a simplified rule of;

Code: [Select]

([Series]="Doctor Who") (-[Description]=[Doctor Who])Which would mean more programs are recorded, and so probably more repeats would be recorded. But at least each recording would be put into a Series that had some meaning.

At present I get some Doctor Who recordings that have no Series, and so are orphans. For example;
EPG <title> = Doctor Who: The Zygon Invasion        ==> [Name] = Doctor Who: The Zygon Invasion, [Series] remains empty.
EPG <subtitle> = (Blank)                                        ==>
EPG <description> = (proper description)                 ==> [Description] = (proper description)
Rules A and B would record that program, but it would not be associated with the "Doctor Who" series, but would instead create a new [Series] = "Doctor Who: The Zygon Invasion"

Another variation of EPG data is;
EPG <title> = Doctor Who                                            ==> [Series] = Doctor Who
EPG <subtitle> = Doctor Who: The Zygon Invasion        ==> [Name] = Doctor Who: The Zygon Invasion
EPG <description> = (proper description)                      ==> [Description] = (proper description)

The above program would be rejected by rule A, which would probably be okay, but accepted by rule B, which is erring on the side of being conservative but still probably okay. Normally those errors are only made on repeat showings, or complete repeats of a Season, which I probably already have.

Anyway, now that we have the more complex recording rules, I can look more critically at the EPG data I am getting and make up better rules. I just kept it simple before and over-recorded as I didn't have the functionality to cope with EPG deficiencies.

[CountryBumkin]

I setup a recording rule to record "This Old House". This is the original series and I don't want the spin-offs.
However I get recordings for "Ask This Old House" and "This Old House Hour", in addition to the "This Old House" series.

Is this intended?

Maybe its a good idea so nothing gets missed.

I guess I need to go to the recording rules and add "NOT "Ask This Old House"", and "NOT "This Old House Hour"".

[Yaobing]

Did you use "is" or "contains" when setting up the search rules?  It seems that you used "contains".  This is equivalent to the old method with not checking "exact match" checkbox.

[CountryBumkin]

Yes, that was what happened. I never even looked at the Subscription Rules Edit box. The existing recording rules where auto incorporated/updated with the new MC version, so using "contains" must be a default setting.

[Yaobing]

Yes, that was what happened. I never even looked at the Subscription Rules Edit box. The existing recording rules where auto incorporated/updated with the new MC version, so using "contains" must be a default setting.

Not quite.  It depends on whether your old rule had "Exact match" checkbox checked.  If you did not use "exact match", then it becomes "contains" in the new system.

[kstuart]

I look forward to giving them a try, but I wanted to give a thumbs up now.

[muzicman0]

I love the new way of doing subscriptions in build 19, but is it possible to add Season as an available variable?  That way if I only want to record season 1 of a show, I think I would be able to accomplish that...assuming you can do 'and' rules, and not just 'or'.

[imeric]

I like it a lot too!! Congrats Yaobing for delivering on this!!!
Played a tiny bit with it and looks like the AND expression can not be entered...
I'll play around with it a bit more but this looks promising!!

[Yaobing]

By default individual rules relate to each other by AND.  To have more complicated relations, use () and or [] to group them.  Click the left of the "field selection" drop box repeatedly to select the right bracket.

[RoderickGI]

I love the new way of doing subscriptions in build 19, but is it possible to add Season as an available variable?  That way if I only want to record season 1 of a show, I think I would be able to accomplish that...assuming you can do 'and' rules, and not just 'or'.

You can use AND and OR operators only. You can also nest rules together, for example;
([Name]="Doctor Who" or [Series]="Doctor Who") (-[Name]="Doctor Who" or -[Series]="Doctor Who")

Interpreting this says; If Series or Name contains "Doctor Who" record the program, but if Series and Name contain "Doctor Who" don't record the program.

Which emulates an Exclusive Or (XOR) operator. There is no XOR available for Recording Rules, at least at this time.

Season isn't an option yet, but may be in the future. This is the first cut of the new rules, in terms of fields that can be used. I have asked for all EPG fields to be available to use in rules, such as Genres, Director, Actor, etc. All of that depends on having the fields in the EPG data, so it may come along after the EPG data situation is sorted out. But maybe Season could be done sooner, if enough people ask I guess.

[RoderickGI]

Yaobing beat me, but;

There is text in the Edit Rules dialogue that describes how to use brackets during rule editing to apply AND or OR relationships.

You can use AND and OR operators only. You can also nest rules together, for example;
([Name]="Doctor Who" or [Series]="Doctor Who") (-[Name]="Doctor Who" or -[Series]="Doctor Who")

Interpreting this says;
If Series or Name contains "Doctor Who" record the program, but if Series and Name contain "Doctor Who" don't record the program.
or perhaps more simply,
If the Name or Series fields, but not both fields, contains "Doctor Who", then record the program.

The rule emulates an "Exclusive Or" (XOR) operator. There is no XOR available for Recording Rules, at least at this time.

The above rule was created using the settings shown in the attached image. There is going to be a bit of a learning curve for getting the most out of this new functionality.

[JimH]

I think Yaobing deserves a standing ovation for this powerful new feature.  Thanks, Yaobing.

[RoderickGI]

Indeed. But I'm not sure how to do that from this side of the world. Alas, all I can do is say thank you Yaobing.

It is a powerful feature that will provide a lot of flexibility.

[greynolds]

The new rule enhancements are a HUGE improvement and a big step in the right direction.  I'm now able to schedule recordings for the Boston Bruins hockey games by setting up a series that uses the following settings:

([Name]="NHL Hockey" or [Series]="NHL Hockey")([Description]="Boston at" or [Description]="at Boston")

Note that the above are all "contains" rules, not exact matches.

When: All showings
Do not record reruns is checked
Do not record programs that have been recorded in the past is unchecked
Channel: 7-1 WHDH-HD; 25-1 WFXT DT; 576 NESNHD; 578 NESN+; 590 NBCSP

One enhancement that would be nice, that I previously mentioned in another thread where Yaobing was initially talking about this new functionality, would be to allow a channel selection of "HD Preferred" (and another option for "SD Preferred"; I'm not sure why someone would prefer that, but it's an option in WMC).  If that were an option, I could go with that and not have to worry about selecting specific channels.  If I just go with the "all channels" option, then it defaults to the SD versions of the channels presumably because they're lower channel numbers and get found first.  Something I can obviously do on my end as a workaround is to remove the equivalent SD channels from my channel list, which should have the same effect.

I'm in full agreement that extending the rule options to include other metadata tags is a logical and useful extension of this, but this initial enhancement is a GREAT start.

Another nice enhancement would be to change the "To be recording" listing to exclude shows that are in the padding of actual scheduled recordings.  Every time I look in there and see shows listed that I know I didn't ask it to record it takes me a moment to once again realize that it's just showing me the shows that are in the padding time for another show.  This is obviously a lower priority, but would clean the display up a bit and make the TV feature feel a bit more polished.  If you don't want to remove them, perhaps color code or mark them in such a way (italics?) that it's obvious they're in the padding time.

Really nice work Yaobing!

[RoderickGI]

I know in the past people who preferred SD recordings were either trying to save space on limited sized hard drives in PVRs, or they were planning to move the recordings to a portable device for watching later, and that device had limited size or capabilities. Then there were a few who just preferred SD as they didn't have HD TVs, for example.

Neither of the first two issues should be a problem these days, at least not with modern drive sizes, and when using MC, which can transcode to SD if required, and do it while synchronising to a portable device.

But there will always be a few that just want to record in SD for trash TV that they want to have on hand, but don't need to be good quality.

So, yes, being able to specify SD would be handy for some people, and it could be incorporated into a rule, although defining "SD" amongst the various standards may be an issue.

Another way to do it would be to enable sorting of the selected channels within a recording rule. Now that selected channels are shown at the top of the list, perhaps it would be easy to just drag and drop them into the preferred recording priority, either up and down the list just as Favourites can be dragged into sequence in Internet Explorer, or within the Channels field. Something like how email addresses can be dragged and dropped in an address list in Outlook.

However being able to specify SD or HD would probably be more reliable, as I know we have channels that will usually broadcast in HD, but for some programs will broadcast in SD. Most annoying, and it means that selecting a particular channel doesn't guarantee a HD recording.

PS: I thought you would like the new recording rules, especially for your hockey games. Great functionality. I have been playing with the functionality for over ten days, and it has been working well.

[rammingspeed]

Excellent upgrade to Recording Rules!  Thanks.

One minor suggestion that shouldn't be too hard to implement that I didn't see:
The ability to create a blank recording rule that the end user fills in manually. 

Use case:
Upcoming show advertised on a network but is not yet in the guide such as a new show starting a month from now.  This would allow the user to create a rule with "contains" and the title. 
Sporting events looking for a specific team or teams

[greynolds]

Excellent upgrade to Recording Rules!  Thanks.

One minor suggestion that shouldn't be too hard to implement that I didn't see:
The ability to create a blank recording rule that the end user fills in manually. 

Use case:
Upcoming show advertised on a network but is not yet in the guide such as a new show starting a month from now.  This would allow the user to create a rule with "contains" and the title. 
Sporting events looking for a specific team or teams

It's not exactly what you're asking for, but the rule editing is flexible enough now that you should be able to create a subscription for any random show and then edit it to suit your needs.

[greynolds]

Another way to do it would be to enable sorting of the selected channels within a recording rule. Now that selected channels are shown at the top of the list, perhaps it would be easy to just drag and drop them into the preferred recording priority, either up and down the list just as Favourites can be dragged into sequence in Internet Explorer, or within the Channels field. Something like how email addresses can be dragged and dropped in an address list in Outlook.

However being able to specify SD or HD would probably be more reliable, as I know we have channels that will usually broadcast in HD, but for some programs will broadcast in SD. Most annoying, and it means that selecting a particular channel doesn't guarantee a HD recording.

This actually brings up another point... After I posted last night, I went in and edited my channel list to hide most of the SD channels that have HD equivalents.  So I sorted the channel list by callsign rather than number to group the SD and HD channels together.  Each time I clicked the checkbox to hide a channel, the list re-sorted by channel number and I had to click the header again to get it sorted by callsign again.  It would be nice if the sort order wouldn't change each time a setting gets changed.

PS: I thought you would like the new recording rules, especially for your hockey games. Great functionality. I have been playing with the functionality for over ten days, and it has been working well.

Yeah, it's definitely a huge improvement and goes a long way towards making JRiver MC a great TV replacement for WMC.

[imeric]

I decided to give MC21 another shot at tv and  an important one to me was to be able to schedule my hockey games for my favorite team to my liking.

It works!!! GREAT NEWS GOOD WORK YAOBBING I LIKE THE LOGIC!!!!
thx for listening!

So far so good!!