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[tkozakis]

I have an Esoteric K07 SACD player that I've connected to the computer via USB 2.0 cable. I have downloaded Esoteric's driver and have set the CD player to the appropriate USB setting. When I go to MC's Tools>Options>Audio>Audio Device ... it is my understanding that I should see my Esoteric listed. Is this correct (it is NOT listed) and if not, what do I need to do make a proper connection? THANK YOU.

[tkozakis]

Is there anyone that can help with this please? Much appreciated.

[CountryBumkin]

Do you see it listed in "Windows Device Manager" under USB Devices or CD/DVD Devices?

[tkozakis]

I do not see it listed under "Devices" (the only category I have). So apparently there is no communication between computer and CD player? The cable is new, connections are good. Perhaps the Esoteric driver is inoperative? Thank you.

[CountryBumkin]

I was referring to Windows>Control Panel>Device Manager (as shown below). Do you see the device here? Does the CD player have an On-Off button. If so, when you turn it on does Windows recognize that a new Device has been added (usually a popup message). Also try different USB plug/port on computer. Maybe your connected to USB3.0 port and device wants older USB2.0 port.

[Arindelle]

Hi just googled your player out of interest and not sure the device can act as a DLNA device or network player -- I surely could be wrong about this, though . Looking at the connections on the back you have a choice of optical and USB inputs. This will allow you when connecting your HTPC/media files to use its DAC for playback of media files through JRiver ... as for outputs, you have an optical, coax for digital, NO USB (for the digital outs).

So if you are using the USB cable as an input device, seems to me like you are connecting it wrong to your PC?

You can use use the USB or optical cable from the PC's output to use the DAC for playback of digital files from the PC or network, plugging it into the input section of your player.

You can try an optical cable (SPDIF) from the digital "out" section on the unit to an input on the PC (if your sound card/motherboard supports this -- should have a coax input otherwise). Then check where Country B suggested in Windows to see if it shows up (might have to reboot the PC with the player turned on). If Windows doesn't recognize the device, JRiver won't be able to in my understanding.

[tkozakis]

Hey. I greatly appreciate your effort here. Let me respond:

1)   I found the Device Manager location you depicted. No, the Esoteric (“E”) is not listed …at least, not in nomenclature I would understand. The list is a bit long.
 
2)   Yes, the E does have an off/on button and no, Windows does not seem to recognize the CD player. That is, I get no indication (pop up message) that it does.

3)   I don’t know what a DNLV device is, but the E is most definitely designed to play tracks from a computer via USB cable connection. Thus, the driver E provides (as a download).

4)   You say; “… as for outputs, you have an optical & coax for digital, NO USB for digital outs”. That is correct, but neither optical nor coax are necessary as outputs from the E, as I am using an XLR connection between the E and my pre-amp.

5)   On the PC (Dell Inspiron 3847), on the back panel, there are only 2 USB ports left that are not occupied. There is one “HDMI” port, but I can see it’s not designed to accept a USB connector. USB ports on the back panel must be for output … those on the front are inputs.

6)   I have no idea what you mean by “Country B”, but I cannot use optical cable, as I don’t have it. My PC (desk top) is on one side of the house, my sound system at the other. I am running 65 ft of USB cable and I would have to purchase same for optical.

Appears the only area left to explore is the downloaded driver with E. I placed a call to E yesterday, but probably won’t be able to communicate until Monday.

Thank you again for your time & effort. TK

[CountryBumkin]

Usually when you plug in a device (to USB port) Windows will recognize that a new device is being installed and it will then try to locate drivers (hence the popup message). You don't seem to be getting this.

I would unplug the USB CD-player and turn it On. Then plug it back into the computer's USB port. See if Windows recognizes it this way. The other way is to go back to Windows Control Panel>Device Manager and use the "Scan for new Hardware" button. However if the device is already installed (maybe you just don't recognize it in the Device Manger list) it won't show again with the Scan - but plugging it in the USB port (while it turned On) should make Windows recognize that a device has just been added.

[tkozakis]

Yes, I have tried unplugging/plugging & turning off/on E unit several times … and I also did the scan but nothing is working. I’ll have to talk to Esoteric and see if they can offer any advice. Thank you.

[blgentry]

5)   On the PC (Dell Inspiron 3847), on the back panel, there are only 2 USB ports left that are not occupied. There is one “HDMI” port, but I can see it’s not designed to accept a USB connector. USB ports on the back panel must be for output … those on the front are inputs.

There is no distinction of input or output with USB ports.  As long as they are the rectangular kind that take a normal USB cable, you can use any of them.  It might be worth trying some of the ones you haven't tried yet.

Brian.

[mwillems]

There is no distinction of input or output with USB ports.  As long as they are the rectangular kind that take a normal USB cable, you can use any of them.  It might be worth trying some of the ones you haven't tried yet.

Brian.

Part of what's confusing the issue here is that in this case the USB port on the player is very likely to be only an input: http://www.esoteric.jp/products/esoteric/k07/indexe.html, which I think was Arindelle's point.  You're absolutely right about the ports on the PC though.

--------------------------------------------------

There's a lot of confusion in this thread mostly because of OP's thread-title description of the device. The device isn't a USB CD player: it's a combo SACD player and USB DAC.  If you look at the manufacturer's page, the USB interface is an input for the DAC, not an output for the SACD player (no licensed SACD player will work as a regular device with a general purpose PC other than some hacked PS3's from several years ago).  

So OP should be looking in device manager under sound, video, and game controllers rather than under DVD and CD players because the device will present itself to windows as a DAC not as a CD/DVD player.  

OP can you clarify what you're trying to do?  Are you trying to send audio from your PC to the Esoteric to use the Esoteric's DAC?  If so that should be achievable and that's the avenue to pursue both here and with Eclipse.  If you're trying to play or rip an SACD with the Eclipse and transmit the audio/data from the eclipse to your PC via USB that probably isn't achievable.

[CountryBumkin]

I was thinking he was working with one (something like) of these: http://www.amazon.com/COOLEAD--Black-External-CD-ROM-Microfiber/dp/B00JWIH6S0/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1448214814&sr=8-4&keywords=USB+CD+player
Obviously not (I see from mwillem's link) - So I'll step out of this discussion and let the experts take over. Good luck.

[tkozakis]

I’m sorry. I thought is what just understood that I wanted to send an audio signal from my library in the computer TO my CD player/sound system. Don’t know why anyone would want to do the reverse, regardless, I did look again under each of the sub-folders in Device Manager that you stated above. But what is an “Eclipse”? Is that similar to my Esoteric? Continued thanks.

[mwillems]

I was thinking he was working with one (something like) of these: http://www.amazon.com/COOLEAD--Black-External-CD-ROM-Microfiber/dp/B00JWIH6S0/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1448214814&sr=8-4&keywords=USB+CD+player
Obviously not (I see from mwillem's link) - So I'll step out of this discussion and let the experts take over. Good luck.

I was thinking the same thing based on the title until I looked it up.  It's kind of a confusing device frankly (I had never heard of a combo SACD player DAC, but it looks like there are a few on the market now that I'm looking)

I’m sorry. I thought is what just understood that I wanted to send an audio signal from my library in the computer TO my CD player/sound system. Don’t know why anyone would want to do the reverse, regardless, I did look again under each of the sub-folders in Device Manager that you stated above. But what is an “Eclipse”? Is that similar to my Esoteric? Continued thanks.

Sorry eclipse was a typo, I'm not familiar with Esoteric as a brand (I had to look it up to get any info), so my brain just inserted "eclipse."  Sorry for the static, in my post above just read "Esoteric" anywhere you see "Eclipse."  So I'd advise having a look in device manager except under audio controllers.

[muzicman0]

6)   I have no idea what you mean by “Country B”, but I cannot use optical cable, as I don’t have it. My PC (desk top) is on one side of the house, my sound system at the other. I am running 65 ft of USB cable and I would have to purchase same for optical.

This is significantly longer than USB cables are supposed to be...does this have active components in the cable?  Have you tried this with a shorter USB cable to see if it works? 

[Arindelle]

Part of what's confusing the issue here is that in this case the USB port on the player is very likely to be only an input: http://www.esoteric.jp/products/esoteric/k07/indexe.html, which I think was Arindelle's point.  You're absolutely right about the ports on the PC though.
......
If you're trying to play or rip an SACD with the Eclipse and transmit the audio/data from the eclipse to your PC via USB that probably isn't achievable.

that's what I was getting at. I also was confused by the title. I thought he wanted to use JRiver as a controler for the player (or the DSPs in JRiver like many Oppo users do) -- I don't think that would work either.

If all you are trying to do is using the player as the DAC, Output from PC to one of the digital inputs on the Esoteric. This would be the same as setting up to any external DAC. (more info on the JRiver wiki if you need to know more). You have three choices USB, Optical and Coax -- if you are going straight off the motherboard of your PC -- you probably can use the often built-in Realtec driver if you use an optical or coax connection. 

Edit => PS - 65 feet of USB seems really long though -- aren't these supposed to be as short as possible, like under 1 meter if possible?? How are you planning to control the playback -- JRemote on a tablet? Might want to look at the ID that JRiver sells or another client PC to shorten the distance issue?? (oops posted at the same time as muzicman )

[mwillems]

Yeah, I glossed over the 65 feet of USB cable.  USB cables are only specced to work to between 10 and 15 feet depending on the speed of communication.  You need active powered interconnects every ten feet or so to have a hope of it working, and even then those are notoriously flaky.  You would be much better served by buying a low cost PC or extender to install in your sound room then by trying to buy the hardware you'd need to make a 65 foot usb cable run work (which even if "working" might not work well).

[tkozakis]

ALL; thank you for the input and again, sorry for the confusion, but all I wish to do is to have my Esoteric CD player, playback my computer library – period. I have not tried with a shorter cable, because I do not wish to relocate my desk top computer which is sitting some 60+ feet away in another room. Yes, I am aware of the connecting options into the Esoteric and I chose USB because I don’t have the output options you list from my computer. It’s either USB or nothing. And if it worked, I would make use of a rather long play list developed in my computer on JRiver and let it rock …... or roll (your choice) … I would control volume with my pre-amp … and perhaps “forward” and “pause” or “stop” with the Esoteric. I assumed that would be possible … but probably not.
 
“USB cables are only speced to work between 10 and 15 feet depending on the speed of communication.  You need active powered interconnects every ten feet or so to have a hope of it working … “. When I bought the cables, I explained to the sales person what I was doing … there was no mention of a powered interconnect necessary. Why would they sell USB cable that long if it did not have a prayer of working? I will talk to Esoteric tomorrow … and if it can’t be done, then it can't be done …. anyone wanna buy 65 ft of USB 2.0 cable??? Thank you again.

[mwillems]

FWIW a few links on long distance USB:

http://www.ebay.com/gds/USB-Cable-Length-Limitations-and-how-to-break-them-/10000000001067998/g.html
http://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=6149

It's certainly possible, but you need either need powered usb hubs or active (powered) extension cables, and I've had mixed experiences with daisy-chaining either one of those.

Maybe the 60ft cable they sold you is active/powered and it's just not working correctly?  Try connecting it to something easy like a USB keyboard or something to see if it works correctly at all.

[tkozakis]

Yes, thank you for the USB link ... I checked ... mine are USB 2.0 "Active Extension Cables". There should be no issue with the cables. Will check 'em as you suggest anyway, but I believe the issue is with the Esoteric driver. See ya~! TK

[tkozakis]

Well, I'm still communicating w/ Esoteric, but I failed to ask another of my initial questions. What must be done, what settings must I use in JRiver to make any CD player play JRiver tracks? THANK YOU.

[CountryBumkin]

Did you get a chance to read the install manual? http://www.esoteric.jp/products/esoteric/usb/pdf/ESOTERIC_USB_DRV_Install_guide_e_vA.pdf

It looks easy enough.
You install the Windows Esoteric driver first (do not connect Esoteric to computer first), then plug the Esoteric into the computer USB port which will then install Esoteric driver. Then select the Esoteric as the playback device in "Windows Sound Properties". Once that is done open JRiver program and select the "Esoteric" in the "Audio Device>Default Audio Device".
Did you get this far?

[tkozakis]

Country B, just moments ago I finally got it to work ... the problem was with a sublayered setting in the Esoteric. There was nothing in the manual explaining this, but finally ... success. Thank you for your continued effort. Thomas

[dtc]

Good news. Did you get your unassigned tracks fixed?

[tkozakis]

Yes I did ... can you believe that??? Thanks for asking. When you don't understand the direction or can't find the things they are describing, it is a protracted effort of trial and error. But the suggestion told me what to look for of course. However, with the 65 ft of USB, the lower mid and bass frequencies really suffer ... quite subdued. Talked to Esoteric and they are going to send me a couple of alternatives (hopefully not too costly) that might help. I know there are a lot of devices out there for the kind of thing I wish to do, but I wanted to get away with minimal cost - and I've retunred 2 different streamers in the $1,200 range because the soundstage was also lacking ... and there was a marked difference from my vinyl. I'm convinced, that I'll have to spend thousands of dollars in a streamer to match the openness & separation i get from my VPI Classic turntable/Ortofon 2M Black/Vincent PHO-700 phono pre-amp (certainly not an extravagant set up). Thanks again.

[blgentry]

USB cable lengths don't affect sound in terms of frequency response.  You're not going to lose mids or highs because of a USB cable.  It's digital.  The worst effect you could have would be a glitchy connection that wasn't reliable and made really horrible noises.  The next worst thing would be really bad jitter which makes the music sound more harsh and less engaging.

Brian.

[tkozakis]

So what then, specifically is causing the loss of the frequencies I mentioned, becuase it is quite obvious - I'm not imagining it. When you say it's digital, are you then saying its the JRiver program becuase that is sending the signal to the DAC (Esoteric). Thanks in advance.

[blgentry]

So what then, specifically is causing the loss of the frequencies I mentioned, becuase it is quite obvious - I'm not imagining it.

It's hard to say without more information.  It could be settings on your preamp or receiver.  It could be some setting in the DAC/CD player.  If you're using DSP in JRiver that could be a factor (equalization, convolution, effects, etc).  Does the CD player sound "correct" playing CDs with no settings changed on either the player or the pre/avr ?

When you say it's digital, are you then saying its the JRiver program becuase that is sending the signal to the DAC (Esoteric).

I'm saying the signal on the USB cable is a digital signal, as opposed to analog.  It won't lose frequencies along the way, or change frequency response.  Cable type and length don't influence the sound the way an analog interconnect is known to.

Oh, and one more HUGE factor I forgot to mention:  Your song selection.  Some songs are poorly recorded.  Some versions of songs are from odd sources.  Unless you're super duper sure about what a particular song that you have in JRiver is supposed to sound like, you might want to start there.  Start with a song that you know is of reference quality.  Something you've heard many times and you've verified that the digital file you have sounds good.

Brian.

[dtc]

Before blaming the Esoteric, you should do some experiments.  First, how do you like the sound of it as a CD player? If you are happy with that, then you need to figure out why you are not happy using it just as a DAC.

Have you tried the setup with a short USB cable? Contrary to Brian's comment, there can be issues with usb digital signals. including jitter, which is the timing of the usb signal. If it is not precise, the mistiming can cause a definite loss of detail. The Esoteric uses async USB which controls the timing, but if the cable is amplifying the signal it might be effecting the timing and causing the problems you hear. You should set up the PC and Esoteric in a normal setup, with a good quality, normal length,  usb cable and see how it works.

The Esoteric is a good player. First, how is it as a stand alone player? If you like it standalone, then you need to do try to figure out why it is not working for you as a DAC. One step at a time.

[dtc]

... and there was a marked difference from my vinyl. I'm convinced, that I'll have to spend thousands of dollars in a streamer to match the openness & separation i get from my VPI Classic turntable/Ortofon 2M Black/Vincent PHO-700 phono pre-amp (certainly not an extravagant set up). Thanks again.

If your criteria is that digital does not sound like vinyl then that is a very complicated issue. There are many people that think that digital never sounds like vinyl, no matter how much you spend. Reproducing your VPI setup with a digital setup is much harder than you might think. You can go through multiple DACs and preamps to try to get them to sound similar, and you may never be happy if you are trying to reproduce the analog sound. However, lack of bass and sound stage indicates that there is more going on than just the player/DAC. There are plenty of DACs that have great bass and very good sound stage.

So, first how does the Esoteric do as a stand alone CD/SACD player compared to your vinyl setup?

[tkozakis]

Brian/dtc:

Does the CD player sound "correct" playing CDs with no settings changed on either the player or the pre/avr ?

Yes, the CD player sounds fine of course, when playing CDs. I can tell you it is not my pre-amp (McIntosh C46).

Oh, and one more HUGE factor I forgot to mention:  Your song selection.

I understand this of course. And I made my determinations on songs I know quite well. You say that cable length does not effect frequency response, but something certainly is. I was inclined to believe it is something in the JRiver programing, but when I play the same track on my computer with my Klipsch speakers & sub, it sounds quite good. If the problem were a setting on JRiver, I would here it at my computer as well.

Before blaming the Esoteric, you should do some experiments.  First, how do you like the sound of it as a CD player? If you are happy with that, then you need to figure out why you are not happy using it just as a DAC.

The sound quality of the Esoteric is just fine on its own. The detail is quite good as you would expect with this unit. But yes, if my problem is not w/ JRiver, then something is going on with the DAC of the Esoteric. There are a 2 or 3 filter settings on this unit that I suppose I'll have to play with. It could be that the issue is there but I doubt it.

Have you tried the setup with a short USB cable? Contrary to Brian's comment, there can be issues with usb digital signals. including jitter, which is the timing of the usb signal. If it is not precise, the mistiming can cause a definite loss of detail. The Esoteric uses async USB which controls the timing, but if the cable is amplifying the signal it might be effecting the timing and causing the problems you hear. You should set up the PC and Esoteric in a normal setup, with a good quality, normal length,  usb cable and see how it works.

Well then, based on your replly above, it would appear my issue is jitter. I know about jitter, but it was my understanding that jitter manifests itself in a type of echo-like sound quality. And yes, you are correct, the Esoteric does use an asynchronous USB connection, But what you're saying about amplification makes sense. I have not tried the setup with shorter USB cables because, as I wrote earlier, my desk top is one side of the house, the sound system on the other. Your suggestion of setting up the PC & Esoteric in a normal arrangement is good advise, but a real pain as I would have to get shorter cable, disconnect my harddrive from its current connections with the excption of the screen and move both over to the system and reconnect there. I'm more inclined to see what the Esoteric rep comes up with as a solution.

I thank you both for your attention to this. I may come back and ask another question or two if the need arises, but for now, we'll wait for Esoteric. I hope this "insert quote" function is working properly ... was not sure if I was doing it correctly. Happy Thanksgiving to you both.

[CountryBumkin]

In the Esoteric manual it says to go into Windows Sound properties, and setup the Windows sound properties for playback. Maybe you are still at the Windows sound default settings.

[tkozakis]

Well I'll be damned~! You may be a country bumkin but you're a sharp country bumkin. That worked~! I must say however, that the Esoteric page you showed is not in my manual "D01163921A". I looked again just to be certain and it doesn't exist. You got on an on-line copy, did you? Don't know what DTS Audio is, nonetheless, the sound quality is what it should be ... all frequencies and the staging is quite good as well. Can't thank you enough CB. And thanks again to all who made an effort. TK