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[JimH]

Zevele, among others, has suggested that MC 9.0 and 9.1 are for power users.  We'd like to think it's possible for MC to be both powerful and simple.

Are there areas that you find confusing?

Just identifying areas would be helpful, but if you can suggest a way to improve them, that would be even better.

Thanks.

[Stilton]

I'll start with the obvious (although this is only relevant to 9.1) - I think the panes are extremely confusing. They should definately stay, but the tree support should be supported along-side, and I think should be switched on by default (or as I have suggested elsewhere, examples of both expanding trees and panes).

Other than that, I think it's a pretty simple program. Comparing it to Windows Media Player - all the basic functions (playing music, looking around your music collection, burning/ripping) is just as simple. The more cleverer features are going to be slightly trickier to use, but that's expected.

[sangs]

Too complex? I don't know. Overall I don't think so anyway.

I started using it in late May when I got a WinPod after years of MMJB. It definitely has a learning curve, but that was heightened by the fact I was purging all the MMJB years from my brain. I've been downloading the betas and haven't had many issues at all.

It can be very complex if you delve into all its intricacies, but as a music library/player/organizer/tagger/Ipod companion, I think it just takes some time to familiarize yourself with the program and you'll have it humming away like a finely tuned engine in no time.

At least that's been my experience.

[Pink Waters]

its not confusing at all .. but the essence of confusion is the panes...

I think any pane selected from the tree whether it is(audio..and all its sublists,video..and all its sublists...etc)should save sortings in the panes when moving from window to window and when getting back to it by selecting it from the tree (not just the forward/back buttons) we see it as we left it (panes sortings/selections)

For example, if you select a specific genre/artist/album in the pane "audio" and then select "video" from the tree.  Panes should not reset when you select "audio" or "video" from the tree.

[gkerber]

I believe it is too complex for the average new user, and quite powerful for advanced power users.

I suggest making the initial defaults as simple as possible. hiding some of the power and complexity (use trees to start over panes).

With a careful set of init defaults, and very well written help and a tutorial, MC could attract new users and keep them as their needs change.

I've been around awhile, and I learn new things almost every day.  There is lots of power here, the trick is to not overwhelm new new users while making the power features accessible and known about.

Many features are really hard to figure out, good documentation and examples would help.  I still have no idea what QuickTag does, and without being able to figure it out, I'm scared of it (after reading some of the posts).

Good documentation (which is itself an art) would go a long way towards making a complex program easy to use.

[Jaguu]

Not really complex, but lack of consistency in many areas. One can still see its original design as an audio only application.

Functionality should always be dependent on media type as each media type has its specific features and functionality. There has been a lot of improvement in this area, but more consistency could be achieved!

TV and Web-Radio selection could be integrated in overall view scheme system, so that view schemes for TV and radio could be created. Would like a TV scheme grouping TV channels by News, Sports, German, Swiss, French channels etc. That would really be something!
The same with web radio!

As a Media Center it still misses the number one media worldwide: text! I would consider all kind of text files also a media type (E-books, Office files, PDF files). Can be done by sending to external apps, but better integration of those filetypes would be great. Then we could even send Windows explorer to Recycle bin and tag all our files on our systems! Also lists of favourite web-pages could be included in view schemes and made available for tagging. Then we could have some kind of super-views containing all media for a specific topic such as

Country > France
- Artworks
- Articles
- Books
- Galleries
- Movies
- Music
- News
- Radio
- TV-Channels
- Web-Sites

Well, this was just some dreaming...


MC documentation should have more depth and better indexing and be available as a printable PDF-file.

[KingSparta]

I think it is fine

You can make programs with "Play" And "Stop" as being the only buttons and someone will say it is too complex.

That Said

The only thing I thought was complex was how to connect to Media Server.

[Kurt Young]

I disagree with most here.  I think the panes are the most logical, easiest to use method for browsing a library that can be as huge as some of these libraries are.

Especially for new users, the panes are very empty... easy learning curve for sure.

I would recommend panes by default, tree if you want.

[a2hoo]

I vote too complex for beginners

I have been using MC for years (Mj before) and just figured out replay gain.

The DSP studio is hard to find.

I guess it depends what you want...
For mere playback it is not the easiest application.  

For organization, it sure is great, but it does take effort.

The panes I think have made MC easier to use.  I don't understand what problem everybody has with them.

Things are trickly such as making your own smartlists...
You have to "create smartlist"
Then go to the search box (which took me 2 days to find), then figure out to right click to add limiations.

Great for me, impossible for a beginner.

Either MC should have built in tutorials (maybe links to "video tutorials on the webste) or have advanced functions hidden from beginners

[Topper]

Im going to back up Jaguu's dream here a little.

I also consider PDF's TXT files etc to be media and would support any move towards incorporating these and any other extensions as was seen fit.

As well as MC i am a user of Scansofts Paperport which is the document management leader. Now i'm not suggesting that you should go head to head with Scansoft but to be perfectly honest, based on Paperport 9, if JRiver was to incorporate outside in viewers or to create a stand alone application you stand to gain. With the release of Paperport 9 Scansoft became complacent and dropped the ball and as far as I can see all it needs someone enterprising to pick it up and run.

Scansoft may be the market leader but i'm sure that the JRiver way of doing things and the skills and experience that have been picked up while developing MC means that you could find yourself another niche.

[Omni]

Borrowing from gkerber (I surprise even myself sometimes! ), I think v.10 (note that I did not state v.9.1) should include a more in-depth help system.  Primarily, I am thinking about the search "expressions" that are used all over the place:  in searching, smartlists, etc.

That's the only thing I find "complex" about about this product.  Keep in mind that I have been programming for fifteen years (10 years professionally), know more scripting languages than you can throw a stick at, and am fluent in regular expressions; yet, I still shy away from smartlists.

The main problem (for me) is that what you see is not what you get--literally.  In other words, the expression that is shown is not the expression one actually types in.  (Yes, I know, one can use the wizard, but I don't like wizards.  I just like to type and go.)

Anyway, at the very least, you should have a page worth of simple, and more importantly, complex expressions the user can type in search bar.  At least then he or she can learn by example.

Omni

[TimB]

I don't recommend MC to folks who aren't fairly sophisticated users.  Balancing power with ease of use is a huge challenge.

If you are aiming for regular people then:

IMHO Kurt has had the best input in the past on UI and ease-of-use issues.  

In addition maybe some local usability testing aimed at the groups you're targetting might be a good idea for MC 10.

-=Tim=-

[Rands]

I wouldn't say it's too complex.  In fact, I've shown this program to a few friends of mine who aren't power users and they got it going fairly quickly and were incredibly impressed.  People who used to not care about organizing their mp3s are now excited about it.  Imagine the user who has one or two mp3 directories each containing maybe a few folders inside but everything else just jumbled and they've just defaulted to loading the whole lot into Winamp and hitting shuffle.   Now they're approaching mp3s in a different way (although I've heard more than one say, "as long as this program doesn't force me to use genres!").

The main issue I see as a problem is discoverability and OOBE.  

For 9.2 or 10.0, I think an in-program OOBE wizard/tutorial is definitely in order.  Step the user through the initial process of importing media, showing different ways to organize and play it, etc.  Windows users are accustomed to wizards and will feel comfortable with them.

As for discoverability, MC has a ton of features and no compelling way to quickly figure them out.  I consider myself a power user and I still come across features I had no clue even existed (no major ones, of course).

For future versions, a more well-fleshed out Start page should be considered.   Something with larger, friendly buttons that offer a new, simple user quick access to everything without having to deal with tiny button bars and buried menu features.

I do, however, highly recommend against divided lite/pro UIs due to the fact that a user who defaults to a stripped down interface often never discovers the other awesome things a program can do.

Unlike everyone else, I do not think the panes are confusing at all.  This may have to do with my Mac background but I find them to be just as intuitive as a tree display.  

Finally, I would say that MC is no more difficult to figure out than WMP9.  I wouldn't suggest MC as a program for someone who has never touched a computer before but only because it can be overwhelming at first.  Really new users like a rigid program path and not something so open-ended.

The thing I'd most like to see in future versions of MC, especially for new users, are wizards.  Power users hate them but they really do help people out who are unfamiliar with software.

[lee269]

Well it is complex. But it could never be too powerful . The difficulty is presenting the power in an intuitive way. I think it can look a bit daunting to start with, but Id say the important thing is giving people a way into the program early. I do think the panes help. Perhaps they could be defined more clearly graphically - a border round them or something? Actually, what are the panes called officially? Perhaps if they were called the View Filter or something or if it said in the pane toollbar 'Filtering: Media Library: Audio' etc it might help newbies.

Id definitely vote for wizards. Heres a wizard illustration: in Excel theres a 2-way lookup wizard. All it does is build up a cell formula based on two excel cell functions. When you use it first it feels like youre doing magic. But once you have found out what INDEX and MATCH do, it seems so obvious. This is where I think MC is for some of its features.

When you add a new smartlist it just appears in the tree - no indication of what to do next. The dialogs are all there from clicking on the dropdown in the search box, but there should be a stepped dialog (or something) to allow users to create 'my first smartlist', perhaps by default with a 'dont show again' checkbox. Theres so much power in the search boxes but very little way of releasing it without trial and error in my experience.

When you first install MC there could be a setup wizard that imports your files, finds/sorts out where you cover art is stored, offers to replay gain etc.

How about a library organisation wizard? Offers to reorganise your hard disk by renaming your library files based on tags. Might help those neophytes coming to MC after scattering files all over their PC.

An 'audio tuning wizard' that creates replaygain values, sets DSP defaults, crossfading etc.

A media server wizard: when I first started with MC I had no idea what this was. I still cant use it because I have no other PC to serve files to, but an easier setup might be useful.

All this coupled with sensible initial defaults, a strong help file and a good tutorial would I think make things easier.

OK - too many wizards. Im not mad keen on them myself really. But I think they are a good way to handhold new users through the features. I guess the only problem is that people rely on them and never use the features 'normally'. But I dont think this need be an issue if they are designed carefully.

[zevele10]

Ok
So why i find it complex.

First ,it is not even a complain . Just a fact worth to be say  ,for JRiver more than for me.
I'am not anymore a 'all in one ' head.

to me ,it is ok to use MM for tags
db to rip and convert
Nero to burn --well ,this one not anymore since yesterday...--
I do not care about the most sophisticated setting for Lame encoder 'alt-preset' makes my day
I ever found a player who deal nicely with my 50.000 + songs and read all the formats i have.
I'am not anal about RealOne and just do not care if a stream is 'stolled ' by RealOne and MC does not open.
Anyway i do not stay looking at the window ,Real or MC,i just send it to tollbars.
I know much much more about computer than anyone around me -- remember ,i'am living in the real word ,not the Interact one.
I have ONLY full albums and never built a playlist.
Beside this ,i'am looking to some "plus' that i can find only in MC.
A long way to say ,i'am like MOST of the people using a computer very often: not a genious ,but not a total idiot.

The main problem with MC is that it is for pictures and music.
Because of it ,there is a lot of values ,properties, pop-up to open ,EVEN IF YOU DO NOT CARE ABOUT ONE OF THE FONCTION.
You have only pictures ? When settings panes ,you will get a one kilometer hight window with Artist-Album-Gain ect
If you have only music ,you get Evens ,people ,place ect.

Every time you want to set a fonction, you feel trap in a jungle where you do not care about half the trees.
If you want 'to clean' the tree of "smarlist Image' it is good only for the place you are.
Change to Albums or Incomplete albums and boom ,your tree is back.

You have no way to set your program as you want.
If you do not use picture ,TV let's have a way  to have any of it remove FOR GOOD.
If you have only pictures ,the same for the musical part.
If you use both ,you may wish to have it grouped or of different colors.
Go to Pane ==right click== colum type==advanced if you want to understand what i mean......
This is a mess . Let's have music rubriques first and picture ones after - or the opposite-
Or have two colors.
And ,it is the same at most of all the levels.

The same concerning tags. Let's have a way to have only one ,or both kind of files in the tag window.
And not to have to click everywhere from top to botom to update tags.
I really dislike this unfriendly  full page tag.
The MJ8 interface was much much friendly-- but with less possibilitys ,i know-

Because MC is allways running from  one model to another ,most of the time we do not have help files.
MC9 help files are quite young ,but after one or two months not of any help for a large part of 9,1.

If you are asking for help beyond basic play ,import ,you got answers -- from all of you ,very nice people- who make you wonder if you have to start evening school to play one mp3.
To tweak registery IS NOT an answer to give to regular users.

Panes are not confusing. But ,again ,the way to set them is ,and very much.

If THIS is what you think as easy to use ....

http://www.musicex.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=MediaCenter;action=display;num=1059405151

People like me want a player more powerfull than the others on the market.
So they will want to use more than basic fonctions but the easy way.

More and more people like me will come to MC.
If for not other  raison because of the number of songs they have.

At 8.000 ,MusicMatch is dead

At 10.00 Windows Media Player allows you to make a coffe - and drink it-after a click before it is ready.

At 30.000 only import tracks put RealOne and your computer on the knews for around more  one hour....
After click = results is around 2 ,3 minutes.

I do not have a solution.
Look like a 'clean' MJ9 will never come out.

So ,can be at the install  level.
Where you may decide if you want the Music part ,the Image part , the TV part ect ect..

And /or ,like many programs a Basic and Advanced  settings.
Not to basic ,because in this case people would need to jump to advanced to early.

But again ,any basic setting must remove everywhere the entrys of the fonctions not selected.
If not , this would not help.

Was as much hard work to type this than to master MC..

By the way ,again ,i do think that Panels  are not confusing if you can set them ,and the tree in some short and easy settings/clicks

Listening to: 'You're In A Coma' from 'I Like It When You Die' by 'A.C.' on Media Center 9.1

[Marty3d]

You get somewhat "home blind" (direct translation from the swedish "hemmablind"), but three areas is directly confusing, especially for new users.
1. Tree view. It did good back in 8.x because all views looked the same and it was a natural start for a user. Nowadays, it's purpose diminish more and more since the view changes radically for each item. Perhaps another way to "start", if you know what I mean, would be appropriate.
2. SO many hidden sub areas, mostly thinking the properties pane. Different areas, rightclicking, click on various buttons to get sub menus, etc. makes it so complex that new users probably won't even notice what's in there for several years.
3. Can't remember anymore, my girlfriend disturbed me by talking about everything that didn't have to do with this :/

My 2 öre,
/Martin

[NoCodeUK]

I think Zevele hit it on the head.  What can make MC seem complex, and note I said seem as I do not thiink it necesarily is once you know it, is that you have a lot of functions all trying to share the same interface.  It goes along with what Jaguu said in the thread about the properties pane.  MC still seems a lot of the time like an audio program at its heart that can deal with other media.  This is not a criticisim in anyway and I think you have really come on a lot in this area over the past two months but like Zevele said to anew user it is confusing to see Album Gain for your pictures or width and height for your audio.  This is the one area where MC could really make or break the market.  If you could find some way to keep the interface as it is, which for the most part is very easy to use, but allow it to be more media specific depending on the files being used I think you would have the holy grail...the new proeprties pane is moving towards this but it needs to be totally media centric.  For a n00b it needs to be seamless.  If someone doesn't know the history of MC/MJ they may look at it and see it as being a bit quirky in its other media management...

I hope that makes sense

Adam

[jam]

I love tree interface, but I think pane is also OK for the beginner.  Indeed, pane was hard to understand for me.  I took 3 mins.  However, it's not a difficulty to use an application, IMO.  It's a difficulty to understand a new concept.

I think JRiver made a decision to go for pane.  If so, MC9 should not show tree in the default.  Otherwise, users must understand two concepts, tree and pane.  It's pain.  Therefore, I suggest to let users use panes from the beginning.  It is possible that some users don't like panes like me.  So, for such a case, just leave a tree interface as an option, please.  

The difficulties of MC9 to me is somehow different.  I feel difficulties whenever MC9 didn't work as what I expected.  For example,

- I choose several musics and hit play button.  MC9 put not only selected musics but also others in the same gerne, artist, album.  I'm frustrated.
- I start editing my smartlist.  When I hit return key after entering several conditions, MC9 starts playing the smartlist what I'm editing although I've been listening another playing now list.  (This is fixed)
- I put several musics into a playing now list.  Then, I hit play button without moving playing now view.  MC9 wipes all playing now list, put only musics I selected at last, and start playing them.  I like automatical updation of playing now list, but for the case I was editing playing now list by hand, I wish if MC9 noticed it and kept a playing now list that was modified from last play back.
- And in general, MC9's menu structure is hard to understand.  MC9 has a lot of options, submenues.  And, those are not organized well at the moment.

[nila]

I dont think it's too complex - I just think it lacks any learning tools to help new users get to grips with it or understand features.

There is often no explanation of a feature and the only way to find out how it works is to try it - I dont mind doing this - some do.


An easy way to fix this is to add a lot more help to beginner users:

• Configuration wizard the first time MC is opened to set the features that will effect users day to day useage of it the most.
  
• Message the first time MC is opened explaining the basic parts of the program (player controls, toolbars, location and tree) and what each one does (tree navigates content - right pane displays it. etc. etc.)
  
• Import wizard is too complex listing all the types - most my friends have no idea what these file extensions mean - it needs to have three groups: Images/Audio/Video and the user can check each box to select what he wants MC to be associated with - IF he wants he can expand the groups to then individually select file types inside of each group for more advanced users.
  
• Tips of the day type thing - can be filled with things learnt on interact and updated regularly to include new tips.
  
• Messages appearing to explain to the user how to use each section with a 'do not show this again' checkbox.
  I think these would be appropriate at least in the following places:
  - First time a user clicks on a view scheme have a message telling them how to configure the panes and how to create new view schemes.
  - One is DESPERATELY needed to explain that the properties window also shows: Statistics, Images, Playlists etc as this is toooo hard to notice.
  - The drop target is a feature I personally never noticed for 6 months - pointing this out would be a great feature.
  - Burning CD's - VERY confusing to new users - they add the files to the burner then dont know how to get to the burner screen - expanding a tree called: CD, DVD & handhelds is not natural - it took me a LOT of playing to work this one out. I was looking all over for some option for 'Burner/CD Writer' - the fact it's not top level makes it confusing and should be explained as well as the fact that the drop target shows the amount of space left/number of files qued etc.
  - When images and audio are mixed in playing how this should be explained where the image playlist has disappeared to when the audio is added along with how to control it.
  - First time the user tries to create a view scheme - explain to them how to add/control panes - this one is REALLY needed. Also explain to them how view schemes can be tied to playlists and how search criteria works for view schemes.
  - Sure there are more but I'm exhausted and brain isn't working
  
  
  Also - making the settings of options a LOT more interactive rather than JUST through the options panel would really help break down the complex features and make them easier.
  
  - First time a user creates a 'populated' view scheme - ask them if they want to turn on auto expand.
  - First time they browse the library - ask them if they want to have the fields auto expand etc.
  - First time they seek with a song - ask them if they want to set the seek mode etc.
  
  Just little things to break down the options screen so the users know and are only presented with options that effect that task so that they are doing - it'd make it alot more obvious of the what each option applies to.
  
  
  
  Powerful features aren't a problem - making sure the users know how to use them is the problem.

[xen-uno]

MC is no harder to drive than any of the Office apps. I mean basic functionality is right there...

I remember one time my mother was trying to write a letter using MS Word. Over the phone, I explained that the Word's default settings are fine for that. "OK, I'll keep trying...and could you come over? I'm making your favorite...spaghetti with my zucchini sauce". Of course, I replied "hell yes!". So I get over later and pig out. After dinner we retire to the computer room. "Uno...I'm still having trouble with that letter...could you show me?" The computer was still in the process of booting up. I replied, "Mom...all you have to do is left click somewhere on the blank document". She then grabs my head and slams it (not once, but twice) on the keyboard, yelling "I TRIED THAT YOU STUPID MORON!!!". The keyboard broke in half...keys flying everywhere. My ribs were still sore from the other day, and now I had a headache and a bleeding forehead, so I beat it out of there. I don't know if she ever wrote the letter...we don't talk about it. I think she was overwhelmed by all the buttons and menu options. I never told her that MS spends alot of dough on usability tests and that the defaults are good enough until she gets comfortable with the app. I don't know though...she's not very patient. For her and many others, it comes down to taking the time to learn the application...

Don't "dumb" it down for users that don't know how to right click or know Windows interface basics. I like the current state of affairs.

10^-27

[LisaRCT]

I love the power but think for many it is too complex, not in it's power or versatility but in how it is presented.
The panes are great!, but as far as the confusion in having so much functionality cramped together at one time.

I remember someone I dated had this special Corvette, it had a key-card thingie that you could remove and the car was a mild mannered pussycat.  But when you had that card in it the think was scary-fast.  So that made me think of some kind of dual interface.
I am visualizing several large buttons, one says "MUSIC", the next "PHOTOS", the next "VIDEO", one for"TV"  etc.
Under music and others where appropriate two more big buttons . . .  one saying "TAG/Organize" and the other says "PLAY/View"
that just seperated the power-tagging, organizational features, etc from the player interface, seperated photo's from music and hopefully their particular tags get isolated from each other in the process.

I think alot depends on what market you wish to reach, I think it is pretty great as it is..

[salsbst1]

I'm basically with xen-uno....

Then there are the people (probably the "silent majority") who will never post to this forum and will never read a help file.

The answer: hide anything that is in any way complex.  Give the user a blank screen when they first install the app with a little button that says, "Press Me"

Then they get to start adding features, one by one....until they're blue in the face or until MC runs out of options.

I don't know..... I think at some point you have to pick your battles to fight.  Does MC really want to cater to the crowd that doesn't right-click their mouse?  Do modern macs even have mice with right-click buttons?

Granted, there's a lot of sales volume to be gained from the "I don't right-click" crowd, but the unification of that crowd and the ones that say MC is too expensive is probably large.

Boy, it's tough being in a market that Apple and Microsoft want to concquer.  I wish J River the best of luck and I'm standing by you guys.

I don't think you guys have the resources to compete with Apple and MS for the mass market.  Aim for the experts.  Leave no feature unimplemented.

And raise the price of the application.

[kiwi]

I have two friends on my basketball team... they aren't computer wizzes at all.  However, they were able to sit down and use MC 9.1 without any problems, and they absolutely love it.  The only thing I had to do was show one of them how to burn CDs.  

Maybe an online tutorial with screen shots would be good.  (It may already exist, I haven't looked.)  It could take users through Simple, Intermediate and Advanced tasks.  I think that as you update MC to have more "media" features, this will be important.

I will have a really good barometer for this when my father (who is computer friendly, but by no means a power user) starts using MC.  He's putting together a system instead of buying a new CD player.  I couldn't think of any other software to allow organizing or browsing through 700 plus albums.  Once he gets going, I'll give more feedback.

kiwi

[marticm]

I agree totally with Nila.
I enjoy noodling around with certain features to try and understand them but I just don't have the time. A little tip on these features would be a nice starting point. Something to let me know if I want to dig a little deeper.

[Superag]

Why don't we make it can be selected when we install it according to different urers?

some module is not used for most users, such as Media Server, Download Manager and so on!

[JimH]

Im going to back up Jaguu's dream here a little.

I also consider PDF's TXT files etc to be media and would support any move towards incorporating these and any other extensions as was seen fit.

We don't disagree with you or Jaguu.  It is probably a matter of time.

I've used Paperport in the past and I liked it a lot.  I haven't used recent versions because my scanners have changed about once a year and the setup of the software was always a hassle.  It would be nice if you could change scanners or cameras or X devices without chaning software.

[xen-uno]

I define Media in the traditional sense...audio, video, imagery. These formats have traditionally been presented on dedicated equipment, such as TV's, stereos, VCR's/DVD's players, photographs, magazines, etc. Your likely to find all of these in any living room. The computer, in concert with an app like MC, is a natural addition and does all of the entertainment formats extremely well (as a source server or stand-alone). While text based formats are definitely a form of entertainment, they're best done at the computer. However, if the ability to read pdf's, txt's, ACAD dwg's and so on were done in a modular fashion (via plugin's), then I would have no problem with this...as long as it didn't interfere with it's core function...and that is to serve entertainment media. I'm afraid that veering off course will lead to spelling and grammar checkers, image editing, E-mail handling, and....well, y'all get the point.

10^-27

[kiwi]

However, if the ability to read pdf's, txt's, ACAD dwg's and so on were done in a modular fashion (via plugin's), then I would have no problem with this...as long as it didn't interfere with it's core function...and that is to serve entertainment media. I'm afraid that veering off course will lead to spelling and grammar checkers, image editing, E-mail handling, and....well, y'all get the point.

I concur.  Keep it simple and put time into the core functionality.  I'd love to have MC take over all of my media needs.  I could see ripping all my DVDs and watching them using MC, once it improves a bit.  Just as I'm doing with my CDs now.  

After good movie selection and playback, I'd like to have the TV capture work well. Particularly if it can capture HighDef inputs.  (I'm not in a rush for this, since HD content still isn't very wide spread.)

Don't spend time getting the other formats to work, if htere's a pull-in infrastructure, and other people want to build in support for pdf's etc.  great.  But don't worry about that until everything else is done.

kiwi

[LisaRCT]

" Is Media Center too complex? "

For who?

My girlfriend is a 'reformed MAC user', for her reading a dialog box before clicking on 'Yes' or 'No' is too complex.
Then again she is a blonde  

[nila]

"
Then again she is a blonde  

Lucky u!!

[LisaRCT]

Actually she is the lucky one  

I have blonde highlights . . .

. . . .  which means she gets the
beauty,
glamour,
sexxyness,

but with the brains of a brunette.  

[Bartabedian]

I have to admit after seeing the panes then actually trying to configure one, I found myself fondly recalling the years '97 through '00 in which it was me, explorer and winamp. I have recently been reduced to using "My Computer" within MC, which when I think about it, isn't really far off from my earlier Nullsoft induced days. I'm a power user, I do DVD Authoring, Web Authoring, Photoshop graphics and Pro-Tools audio recording sessions among other things on my 3 workstations. My computers don't scare me, I built each one and the network they live on.

But, the panes are intimidating, and I have yet to find them usefull. I'm not saying they can't be, but even on my P4 3.06G with 1G RAM, they are very slow in response, and I just don't have that kind of time to test, play with, trial and error, or even maintain any usefull playlists or custom views or really anything to with the media library. In the old library, I had numerous helpful views (since lost in the upgrade) and have yet to figure out how to get those back to what they once were.

But, being a (self-proclaimed) power user, I want all the little additions that .1 is offering such as DVD burning and custom naming on data burns, to name a couple of things that 8.0 or 9.0 don't have. But for those additions, I have the pane pain. I think .1's complexity can be simplified, and I think it should be to maintain a broad appeal, or understand that .1 is headed down a more advanced and therefore less mass-appealing path.

WP

[Doof]

I haven't been able to figure out to switch weapons.

[gkerber]

I want all the little additions that .1 is offering such as DVD burning and custom naming on data burns, to name a couple of things that 8.0 or 9.0 don't have. But for those additions, I have the pane pain. I think .1's complexity can be simplified, and I think it should be to maintain a broad appeal, or understand that .1 is headed down a more advanced and therefore less mass-appealing path.

WP

I choose to not use the panes either, and I've managed to remove them, so as I never have to see them take up screen space, so 9.1 is very similar to 9.0.  The tree is fully usable without panes.

[KingSparta]

What i find complex is to remember day to day tasks.

Today I forgot to pickup the cat from the vet, and my wife called me 15 mins before they closed.

I was 3 mins late and they were leaving the parking lot, they did open the office for me to get my cat, i need to pay the bill tomorrow (if i remember).

one day I fear will not know how to get home

thats complex for me now days

[DougHamm]

Hi guys - I think the answer to this dilemma is right under our noses: Hairstyles!

If anything is too complex for what it's meant to be, I think it's Hairstyles.  With more development effort here I think we could have the best of both worlds.  I would love a Hairstyle with the core functionality of MC9.1 but the simplicity, look and behavior of myHTPC or even MCE (though I'm not sure what the legalities would be here, especially since there's already a bit of a name overlap with Media Center Edition).  

Also, make it so that you can lock Hairstyle mode on execution of MC9.1, to prevent accidental exiting of that mode.

Then I could do all the behind-the-scenes media management my heart desires, and my spouse could reap the benefits by using the optional, simpler Hairstyle interface.

P.S. Since many of us are using myHTPC to launch MC9.1, it could be logical to look to this respected application for its look and feel.

Just my $0.02!

-Doug

[BigAl]

I'm with Doug.  I enjoy tinkering and looking after the "administration" side of my library and making it an integral part of my HTPC.  My wife just wants to play music.  A lot of times in frustration, she'll ditch MC and go the old fashioned way of actually playing the CD!  She's very computer savvy but finds the MC interface (9.0 trees only) non-intuitive.

For mine (or her), the "user" component of MC needs to allow:

* easy viewing on a TV (hairstyle)
* easy control with a remote (Girder)
* "I feel like listening to a song" (easy searching)
* "I feel like listening to an album" (seaching again)
* Trawling the library to create a play list
* Needs to be quick to use and robust

The key thing is making locating and playing a song in MC (preferably with an IR remote) faster than getting up, loading up a CD and playing).

It's all there now, perhaps just a matter of packaging.

Another 2 cents worth, we're at 4.

Al.

[slikvik]

Without wishing to repeat myself   I know I'm right on this one as I've seen it LOTS of time with friends.

I have MC9 running full screen on my Plasma and main Hi-Fi system. I often I have friends over (computer literate and not) who select music for the evening.

I can not tell you how many times that will Add a song, then another, then replace them all with a completely new selection from the current filter. They then walk away and say @!!*? after they just lost 20 mins of music selection.

No matter what you guys say, to the average user, the way MC9 chooses to play files is NOT clear. And this is the thing most users will do. Play types need to be simplified somehow (Toolbar buttons would get my vote.)

Other than that, I don't think it's complicated at all except maybe the Panes view but thats just to do with skin design not actual function (Audio, Images, Video need to be more noticable. Panes need to bordered off more with maybe a FILTER heading. It would then be much easier to see flow of process.)

Cheers

Vic

[slikvik]

[knickelfarz]

Not bad, but still too small for my grandma  

[zevele10]

I don't know..... I think at some point you have to pick your battles to fight.  Does MC really want to cater to the crowd that doesn't right-click their mouse?  Do modern macs even have mice with right-click buttons?

Granted, there's a lot of sales volume to be gained from the "I don't right-click" crowd, but the unification of that crowd and the ones that say MC is too expensive is probably large.

_+_+_+_+_+_

Beside the fact that i understand that to mix with the mass is not that smart-- they are noisy ,not powewrfull user ,some of them even smell in summer...-
I do have some questions:

- Can JRiver make his bread with only porwefull-smart users?
Matt and all the others are very brillant people ,i do not think they get nuts every month.

Some of you may answer 'yes' ,but me i say NO- And i know what about i'am speaking.

If there is a link  no-right click /MC price is to hight , i can understand it ,this people are looking at a jukebox easy to use ,not a full messy [ to them]  Media Player at $40.

So ,if only powerfull users are enougt to make JRiver happy ,FINE .
In this case they just have to do the same thing than since years : crazy people building a fantastic product  who  move faster than light.
And ,i'am sure it is what they would like to do without having to think about the $$$$$$ side of things


Now ,if they do need the 'no-right-click crown , they have to do something.
Or improve the MC interface ,usability
Or built a JukeBox only product. Kind of MJ8 + all musical features from MC.

This one will not get the critics MC got on Cnet.
Customers would ask question as stupid as mine ,sure.
But they will not mess around because Windows packtage are in the download or they cannot set the player to they Windows settings.
If price like other players ,they will buy it in no time.

I'am sure that if they left a only jukebox  project on the side ,others will offer a 'JRiver' kind of jukebox one day.

Again ,i do not speak for me.
If i can use MC to know the albums without sleeves ,burn cds and use Recorder , it's fine to me.
I do not need more ,in one way.

I just try to say what many think as well.
On this forum since years ,i can say that a lot of very regular users are not here anymore.

I'am in touch with a lot of them. They leaved the train at MJ8 and the forum when  'powerfull users very accurate questions' looked to be the only taste of Interact.

By the way : THANK YOU VERY MUCH ..i did know about the right click on the mouse........ Since years i was sure it is a Windows bug....

[JimH]

Are you drinking again?

[graham131]

Are you drinking again?

Thank god for that , i thought it was only me Jim.

Mine you, the bottle of Sancerre i has just had was lovely.

Graham

[MachineHead]

Are you drinking again?

That's not very nice. (But I am.)

Y. has a point. When was the last time Severian, mhorton, or a bunch of others posted with any regularity? Many of them helped me when I started out here.

Personally, I'd love to see a music only version with some of 9.1's features.

Some of the novelty items are getting to be too much. And just to make a point of this, there a few users here now who are quite advanced, but didn't even know about the statistics and printing out a list of albums. Go figure...

[nila]

Some of the novelty items are getting to be too much. And just to make a point of this, there a few users here now who are quite advanced, but didn't even know about the statistics and printing out a list of albums. Go figure...

I think the way the properties pane is set out with all the other windows available to be displayed there, yet with no visible indication of this is probably the most hidden bunch of features in MC.

I really cant see many users being aware of ANY of those other windows unless they find it by accident, visit the forum and hear about it - or spend a LOT of time exploring MC. ALl of those count out your average user.

The fact that the toolbar auto hides makes it prettier sure but makes it more complex - imagine if windows start bar auto hid as default - how many users would never be aware of it.

I think auto hide NEEDS to be a feature and all the other panes need to have some visible indication of their existence - tabs would be one way.

[Soundman]

Overall MC9.1 is NOT to complex, but some helps to use are needed. I have been using MC & MJ for music only for a long time but just recently tried Video & Pictures. Here are some anecdotes for consideration.

* The first time I watched a long .mpg file in full-screen mode, I could not figure out how to fast forward without exiting full-screen mod first.  I finally had to go to Help and lookup the keyboard command CTRL-Right Arrow.  I still don't know how to do it with a mouse.

* If you accidently press the "next track" button or press Stop, the Presto! You've lost your place. This is VERY frustrating in a 6-hour .mpg file.  Most DVD softwares will remember where you were in the DVD or .mpg file and continue there the next time you play that file.  But not MC9.

* If there is a way to set a bookmark in a video file, I haven't found it yet.

* The fist time I played images, it took me half an hour to figure out how to change the replay speed or modify the transition effect.  That is just-plain hidden.

* Also, playing images full-screen, I could not figure out how to skip ahead to the next image, but just had to wait for the timed transitions to occur.  I expect clicking on the screen should make some nav buttons appear and that tapping space bar or Enter should bump to next track or something like that.

* I noticed that when playing images, it can play music at the same time. This implies that there are two different "Playing Now" lists, but it is not obvious how to get to each of them.

* As for Themes, I think trees are more intuitive than panes for Windows users, simply because trees are found in many other programs.  Panes are still good, but they desperately need more help setting it up.  Useful presets are not enough because they don't teach me anything about what they did or how to set up my own.

* Why is it that when I enter a search string, MC changes it into something more human-readable, but different from what I typed? It was weeks before I realized that I could right click on it and select "edit by typing".  Before that, if I wanted to change what I typed, I had to type it all over again.  I think that anything manually typed should stay as it is.  If entered via wizard, and I click "edit by typing", it should stay in "edit by typing" mode until I change it back.

* Please change your search syntax to resemble other languages.  Who would have thought that [Artist]=[A" means artist that starts with A, while [Artist]="A" means artist contains A.  Also, what is up with [Tempo]=>100 ?  Why is an equal sign required before the greater-than?  This is very strange.  How about using good-ole asterisks as wild-card, or better yet, full regular expressions.  RegExp's may be complex, but at least they are a known standard for which prolific documentation exists.

--------------
Finally, why I use Media Center.  I chose MJ/MC over a year ago for one simple reason: its playlist support allows me to quickly put all each song into all the categories it belongs, then make rule-based "smart lists" to pick the playlist (categories) that I want to hear.  I listen to music by type, not by album.  I don't care about albums at all.  Rarely does one album have all-good songs.  Some have only one or two good songs.

All the other music programs allow org only by genre, artist, album, plus static playlists, but genre is useless because you can't put a song into more than one genre.  I could never understand how people could put up with these limitations until I found MC9. It is AWESOME.

Now, I am just waiting for the Automation SDK to be updated to give scripting support to all these wonderful new features.

Thanks for listening,
Soundman

[Stilton]

I remember when I first tried the product and I somehow managed to hide the left-hand window (the tree-view). I searched for about an hour trying to work out how to get it back.

These needs to be menu items for these things to show/hide all the windows. The only way (that I've found) is to double-click/drag the splitter, which isn't very obvious when you didn't purposefully close it in the first place.

[slikvik]

Why don't you just add some more optional toolbar buttons for people to add or remove themselves and allow the ability to asign shorcut keys to them. You'll please a lot of people who can then have as few or as many 1 click (or key shortcuts) as they want. (I still can't see how out of all the possible buttons you can add, you haven't got any playback types except QuickPlay. Could you explain why this is...are they not important  )

[Doof]

* The first time I watched a long .mpg file in full-screen mode, I could not figure out how to fast forward without exiting full-screen mod first.  I finally had to go to Help and lookup the keyboard command CTRL-Right Arrow.  I still don't know how to do it with a mouse.

When you move your mouse on fullscreen mode, navigation bars appear at the top and bottom. From there you can drag the slider, but there isn't any kind of actual fast forward control you can use with the mouse. This would be nice. Along with some way to just hit one button on a remote and have it start fast forwarding until you hit the button again. Currently there is NO way to fast forward with a remore other than the 5 second skip command. Which in all practical terms is pretty much useless.

* If you accidently press the "next track" button or press Stop, the Presto! You've lost your place. This is VERY frustrating in a 6-hour .mpg file.  Most DVD softwares will remember where you were in the DVD or .mpg file and continue there the next time you play that file.  But not MC9.[/quote

Agreed.

* If there is a way to set a bookmark in a video file, I haven't found it yet.

There isn't.

* The fist time I played images, it took me half an hour to figure out how to change the replay speed or modify the transition effect.  That is just-plain hidden.

Right click menus are everywhere in MC. I'm not sure where else you'd put controls like that without making a total mess of the UI.

* Also, playing images full-screen, I could not figure out how to skip ahead to the next image, but just had to wait for the timed transitions to occur.  I expect clicking on the screen should make some nav buttons appear and that tapping space bar or Enter should bump to next track or something like that.

I had trouble with this one too. But when you move the mouse in fullscreen, you get the navigation bars. The top controls control the music, the bottom controls control the images. This should be made more obvious somehow. It DOES say Image and the name of the current image, though.

* I noticed that when playing images, it can play music at the same time. This implies that there are two different "Playing Now" lists, but it is not obvious how to get to each of them.

Again, right clicks are your friend. The list does show up in there, but if it gets too long, it won't display. I tried to convince them that Playing Now should have two nodes in it for this kind of thing. The audio portion and the image portion. Unfortunately it didn't fly.

* Why is it that when I enter a search string, MC changes it into something more human-readable, but different from what I typed? It was weeks before I realized that I could right click on it and select "edit by typing".  Before that, if I wanted to change what I typed, I had to type it all over again.  I think that anything manually typed should stay as it is.  If entered via wizard, and I click "edit by typing", it should stay in "edit by typing" mode until I change it back.

This is kind of the result of people wanting the fast and easy way of entering searches (by typing) and other people wanting something they could use without having to remember all of these arcane commands. You could look at a search and have no idea what it meant when you see stuff like "[Artist]=[Aerosmith] ~sort=[Year] ~a ~nodup=[Name]". It's much easier to understand "Artist: Aerosmith Sorting: [Year] Modifier: Full Albums No Duplicates: [Name]". There probably could be more of a balance with the typing and the wizard, though. Personally, I'd like to see the wizard overhauled. It's a little tedious to use right now. iTunes' wizard is brilliant. You get one screen to construct your entire search in, rather than all of the excessive clicking we have now. Still, it's better than what we used to have.

* Please change your search syntax to resemble other languages.  Who would have thought that [Artist]=[A" means artist that starts with A, while [Artist]="A" means artist contains A.  Also, what is up with [Tempo]=>100 ?  Why is an equal sign required before the greater-than?  This is very strange.  How about using good-ole asterisks as wild-card, or better yet, full regular expressions.  RegExp's may be complex, but at least they are a known standard for which prolific documentation exists.

I couldn't agree more. I still have endless headaches whenever I try to do a search like that. As a result, I don't bother anymore.

But the => would mean Equal To Or Greater Than. How would you get that with just >?

=>100 would return 100 and above.
> would return 101 and above.

[Robert Taylor]

I don't think it's too complicated!

I have friends over all the time, who use MC client in my lounge to select music to play off my server.

With a brief intro lesson (5 mins or 1 drink, whichever is shorter), they are off and flying in no time, AND LOVING IT!

What I find now is that, when anyone comes over for the first time, my other friends who already know their way around MC instruct the newbies, so I can just sit back and get smashed off me dial in a corner.

They don't know all the little tricks that I do, but they can easily suss out how the tree, panes and playing now hang together.

Most of these people are computing novices, and some are non computer types.

All find it fairly easy to use!

A big thumbs up to JRiver from myself, and all my buddies and their girlfriends for making our boozy evenings such a blast!