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Author Topic: Pono is Finished  (Read 15359 times)

JimH

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Pono is Finished
« on: March 06, 2017, 10:56:58 am »

Neil Young made a great attempt, but the scope of the effort was beyond his means.  I believe that his manager, Elliot Roberts, wisely kept him from over-extending himself personally.  Well done to both.

The team did a good job in spite of the problems.

I'm going to declare Pono done now.  I don't think Neil can bring himself to say this, but it's clear.

Why Pono Didn't Work
The hardware player needed a version 2 and it didn't happen.

The software player, PonoMusic World, timed out on December 31, 2016.  It was based on JRiver Media Center, and we would have been happy to continue serving, but Pono was unable or unwilling to pay what they had agreed.

Since Christmas, there have been two broken beta releases of the PonoMusic Vault, their replacement software player.

Communication about their plans has stopped.

Hardware service seems to have stopped.

Pono isn't answering their phone or their e-mail.

It's over.  It's time to call it as it is.
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_zep.

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Re: Pono is Finished
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2017, 01:25:13 pm »

It may be true that Pono does not get their store running again

but I believe there are bigger reasons than the ones you listed [$$]

I have to agree with your first sentence though

Please continue your current support.
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Baronpeloton

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Re: Pono is Finished
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2017, 01:36:51 pm »

Could be true. Hope they make it. Doesn't look good.

Liked the way Pono's download store dealt with internet glitches. If there was a dropout, Pono Music World automatically downloaded the corrupted or missing tracks a 2nd time. Many downloaders require re downloading the complete album, from the begining. With slow internet this takes forever. Often the internet will glitch again and cause a download - fail - download loop.

I hear JRiver supplied the downloader for Pono? If true, do any of the other US download stores use JRiver and work the same way? Looking for new options.
Thanks
Baronpeloton
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JimH

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Re: Pono is Finished
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2017, 04:13:51 pm »

Thanks.  We also did downloaders for:

HDtracks
and
Acoustic Sounds

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Baronpeloton

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Re: Pono is Finished
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2017, 09:02:26 am »

Thank you Jim H. This is great news.
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shAf

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Re: Pono is Finished
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2017, 08:27:53 am »

I read Neil's books, and I especially remember Neil reminiscing about listening to LPs in the "good ol' days" ... except he referenced listening to his portable record player in the Topanga Canyon cabin, or he referenced listening to his Pono while riding around in his Lincoln Continental convertible. I thought "Man'o',an, Neil... I love your music but not your opinion of audiophile hardware..."

...and then he delivers a store that offers nothing more than 24bit flacs than can be played with MC...not unique at all...
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chericaplanellery

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Re: Pono is Finished
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2017, 11:05:19 pm »

When you say Pono is over, are you referring to the software and the store?
I purchased JRiver's software which essentially was the same and now I own the license forever and I believe that I will not have any issues with the software. The Pono player Hardware - the player works great. 

The Pono store, Neil said in his last post that he would not be reopening the store unless it was better than it was before. Also, he has lowered his prices recently on all his music he sells in FLAC from his website I hear. 

I just wanted to say that personally I am not at all disappointed in the fact that I purchased the player for 300.00 because to me, the customer, it has been a bit of a learning process, but I don't regret any of it. 

I don't even understand why someone would be angry about either the store not reopening (There are plenty of other stores to purchase Hi Rez from) or the software issues because JRiver can be bought for like 50.00 and it works great.

The whole point was to make people like me who are not audiophiles be aware of a way to make digital music sound better and for a reasonable price which 300.00 was very reasonable to me. I had basically stopped listening to music much except in my car and now I can't wait to listen to music everyday in balanced mode too.

I still don't know crap about files and formats but I know full well that mp3 sounds so bad compared to FLAC or the few Hi rez albums I purchased from the Pono store and HD tracks. I keep choosing the albums in the higher quality everytime.

I am not sure why but now all my CD's I ripped either transferred from Itunes or transferred from Pono Music World to JRiver are now M4a and I know there may be a way to convert it to FLAC but everytime something is converted, i believe it loses what the original had in the sound quality.  I don't know but still, it's not a problem for me. I just pick an album I have on a CD that I want to hear and in FLAC and I rerip it and delete the other album.

Whatever that Pono s-cks guy was mad about, i don't know, but I saw another guy who went online and was complaining and they helped him finally. He had an issue with the battery life of the player.  So I am just saying your comment that Pono is over, I believe is untrue because I enjoy mine everyday.  I agree with you in the Software aspect, JRiver has been developing software and tweaking it and with all those years and years of experience and programmers, it was assumed by someone that Pono could make their own software work (first of all) and then to say they would make it more user friendly was what they hoped to do but didn't promise anything. But, the point is for 50.00 more - Pono customers can purchase the JRiver software easily and buy from HD tracks or whoever else.  Right? 

any ideas or if you could please explain some in plain easy terms how the file formats work. I do not use Itunes and do not want MP3 quality at all. Pono plays all formats but I am just trying to understand it better. Like I said I have no problem reripping my CD's if there's any question that by converting it might lose data in the compression.
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JimH

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Re: Pono is Finished
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2017, 07:08:29 am »

The M4A files would be coming from iTunes.  It might be best not to use it.

You could learn more about file formats by searching on the Internet or reading Wikipedia. 

Make sure you use a lossless format like FLAC.  Apple's lossless equivalent is ALAC.
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chericaplanellery

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Re: Pono is Finished
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2017, 08:39:14 pm »

Ok Thank You
I have been reading and googling about audio file formats but I need to play around and get experience with the different settings to truly understand it all.
I ripped about 200 CD's into ITunes before I knew that Itunes, I believe, dummies down the CD quality (unless I had my ITunes settings to compress files to m4a). Point is I wish I could recover those original ripped CD's IF they were saved somehow in the Apple lossless format. This was like 5 years ago. Was Apple using ALAC then or is that a new thing? I only go into Itunes for other reasons than music. I will have to look at the settings. Now JRiver is set as my main music software so if I insert a CD to rip, it doesn not go into ITunes. I have it set to ask me what to do - play, rip, etc. I wasn't sure if ALAC was truly the same as FLAC. thanks for that info. FLAC or ALAC is the least resolution I like to listen to. I mean it is fine. The best is the albums I bought in 24bit 192 kHz like Neil Young Harvest is and it also says 301.78 MB.  Then I have for ex a Linda Ronstadt album that's FLAC  16 bit 44.1 kHz 18.86MB.   So I get confused with all of that too. I know about MB's the more MB's the more space it takes up and therefore the less compression I believe.  I am looking and seeing that FLAC is usually 16Bit or maybe it always is?  but the kHz seems to be the way to get the best sound (as long as it's lossless) Then I believe the best is 192 kHZ  and then 96 kHz is great too! and like I said if it says FLAC it sounds good to me too - good enough at least.  But all the CD's from Itunes which at first I was so happily surprised that they automatically moved over to JRiver software (PMW) until I realised they were in MP3 quality ;/ or m4a  - I suppose they are almost interchangeable terms too? Point is, I didn't even know before I purchased the pono player if it could play music from wherever. I understand it fully now though that the Pono plays all formats. Ok so thanks again. and Yes Ponos--cks man or woman needs to be much more kinder! There are so many people who truly care about music on the Pono music pages on facebook and in this and on the Pono community so there is no reason to get all worked up. The player itself probably only came with a 1 year warranty anyhow? I don't know but mines worked for years and I purchased another one as a back up and for keeping as it's a Neil signed limited Edition Pono I got off E Bay - only slightly used.  Also, there was another person complaining and I said then sell it for 300.00 and get your money back if you don't like it because people are paying that easy on E Bay.   Thanks Again - I am not sure if you work with JRiver Jim? but I can imagine you have had a lot of people who know nada about computers looking for help so I don't know if or why Baronpeloton below was saying 'This is great news" but I can imagine why  and at this point. Hopefully Neil or someone will advise soon as to what they are doing.  New customers who but the player at Frye's or wherever, I believe, need to have like JRiver software or a few recommendations of audio software to buy with the player or else lots of people won't know what to do.
I admit when I first got it and sat down to plug it in... I literally stopped and was stuck until I realised I had to turn the Player on! LOL  but I think others have had the same issue so i don't feel bad. it lights up to show its charging but of course it has to be turned on and then it recognises the player and asks if you want to load any music. ;) thanks thanks   more ideas appreciated but I'll figure it out eventually and in the meantime I am good.
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Awesome Donkey

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Re: Pono is Finished
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2017, 05:27:24 am »

Apple's been using ALAC for a long time, easily a decade.

The problem is the m4a container, iTunes uses it both for the lossy AAC and the lossless ALAC.
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I don't work for JRiver... I help keep the forums safe from "male enhancements" and other sources of sketchy pharmaceuticals.

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JWLaviguer

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Re: Pono is Finished
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2017, 06:09:18 pm »

Okay Herb I don't want to argue with you.  I'm not anyone's minion, I don't take sides, and I don't care for anyone's drama at all.  True, I don't know the entire history of what went on between you and other people, and I don't want to know.  I apologize for even responding on this thread...I usually don't do things like that.  However, when you go into that forum under a new made up name, and post ponosucks.com, that is troll-like behavior.

Anywho, Happy Saint Patricks Day, live and let live, cheers to you as I tip my pint to you, and let bygones be bygones.

It's all good.

Joe
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JimH

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Re: Pono is Finished
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2017, 06:40:26 pm »

Nice post, Joe.  Happy Saint Patty's to you.
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bob

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Re: Pono is Finished
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2017, 09:03:20 pm »

Apple's been using ALAC for a long time, easily a decade.

The problem is the m4a container, iTunes uses it both for the lossy AAC and the lossless ALAC.
I'm having a bit of an issue with the ALAC format m4a container. I've been using it exclusively in MC because I can share the files with iTunez so I can put them on my iPhone however it seems it's not seekable as a stream which causes MC to have to wait until a conversion is finished before it can be pushed to a non-alac playing DLNA device. Sigh.
It would be easier for me anyway if iTunez just supported flac.
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JimH

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Re: Pono is Finished
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2017, 09:12:58 am »

Herb removed his account.  I removed some posts above.  Maybe he will return as another user.  Maybe not.
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herbsworld

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Re: Pono is Finished
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2017, 09:55:44 pm »

Sad but true. PoNo is thru.......on 4.20, no less :(
Post by Neil Young from PonoMusic site.

Neil Young (PonoMusic)
Neil Young (PonoMusic)
It’s time to talk about Pono and the initiative we all started. As you know, together we’ve been fighting a battle to bring high quality music back to the world that’s become used to mediocre, hollowed-out files. The cause seemed to be a win-win for everyone. The artists would allow their fans to hear what they hear in the studios, and the music lovers would hear the music the best it could be. This cause has been something I’ve written and talked about for over 20 years. I cared and I assumed that most of the world would care.

It’s been almost five years since we kicked off the campaign at SXSW to offer a player and download content that could fulfill my dream of bringing to you a music experience unlike any other for the cost. Thanks to our supporters on Kickstarter, the follow-on customers and some very good friends that supported the effort, we delivered on that promise. Our player won best digital portable product of the year from Stereophile Magazine, and we offered some of the best high resolution content to be found anywhere. We sold tens of thousands of players, every unit that we made. Thanks for that!

But, despite that success, I was not satisfied. I had to put up with lots of criticism for the high cost of music delivered in the way all music should be provided, at full resolution and not hollowed out. I had no control over the pricing, but I was the one that felt the criticism, because I was the face of it. And I pretty much agreed with the criticism. Music should not be priced this way.

Last year when Omnifone, our download store partner, was bought and shut down with no notice by Apple, we began work with another company to build the same download store. But the more we worked on it, the more we realized how difficult it would be to recreate what we had and how costly it was to run it: to deliver the Pono promise, meaning you’d never have to buy the same album again if was released at a higher quality; the ability to access just high res music, and not the same performances at lower quality, and the ability to do special sales. Each of these features was expensive to implement.

I also realized that just bringing back the store was not enough. While there was a dedicated audience, I could not in good conscience continue to justify the higher costs. When it comes to high res, the record industry is still broken. The industry was such that even when I wanted to remaster some of the great performances from my artist friends at high res, Pono had to pay thousands of dollars for each recording, with little expectation of getting the money back. Record companies believe they should charge a premium for high res recordings and conversely, I believe all music should cost the same, regardless of the technology used.

As you might imagine, I found it difficult to raise more money for this model: delivering quality music at a premium price to a limited audience that felt they were being taken advantage of with the high costs.

So now, sadly with Pono gone, for more than eight months I’ve been working with our small team to look for alternatives. Finding a way to deliver the quality music without the expense and to bring it to a larger audience has been our goal.

That effort has led to a technology developed by Orastream, a small company in Singapore that we’ve been working with. Together we created Xstream, the next generation of streaming, an adaptive streaming service that changes with available bandwidth. It is absolutely amazing because it is capable of complete high resolution playback. Unlike all other streaming services that are limited to playing at a single low or moderate resolution, Xstream plays at the highest quality your network condition allows at that moment and adapts as the network conditions change. It’s a single high resolution bit-perfect file that essentially compresses as needed to never stop playing. As a result, it always sounds better than the other streaming services and it never stops or buffers like other higher res services. When you play it at home with WiFi it can play all established low and high resolutions, including the highest, and thousands more levels of resolution in between. When you are in your car with poor cellular it might play better than an existing low res service, but at a location where robust wifi is available Xstream supports high resolution listening. Xstream is one file, streaming for all with 15,000 seamlessly changing levels of playback quality.

So, this is what we’ve been working on. But one of my conditions is that it should not have a premium price. I’ve insisted that there be no premium price for this service. Pono tried that with downloads and it’s not a good model for customers. And I’ve told the labels it’s not a good model for them to charge a premium for music the way it was meant to be heard. I firmly believe that music is in trouble because you can’t hear it the way it is created unless you pay a premium. No one gets to hear the real deal, so the magic of music is compromised by limited technology.

Good sounding music is not a premium. All songs should cost the same, regardless of digital resolution. Let the people decide what they want to listen to without charging them more for true quality. That way quality is not an elitist thing. If high resolution costs more, listeners will just choose the cheaper option and never hear the quality. Record companies will ultimately lose more money by not exposing the true beauty of their music to the masses. Remember, all music is created to sound great and the record labels are the one’s deciding to not offer that at the normal price. The magic of music should be presented by the stewards of that music at a normal price. Let listeners decide on the quality they want to purchase without pricing constraints.

I’ve been meeting with and speaking with the labels, potential partners such as the carriers, and other potential investors. For many it’s a difficult sell. There are already streaming services, some doing well and others not. While there’s nothing as good as Xstream, or as flexible and adaptive, it’s still proven a difficult sell for companies to invest in.

So, in my experience, today’s broken music industry continues to make major mistakes, but we are still trying. Bringing back the magic of great sound matters to the music of the world.

Thank you all very much for supporting Pono and quality audio. Thanks to everyone who is or was associated with Pono, especially the customers who supported us. Thanks to Charlie Hansen and Ayre Acoustics for the great PonoPlayer. It has been a labor of love. I want you to know that I’m still trying to make the case for bringing you the best music possible, at a reasonable price, the same message we brought to you five years ago. I don’t know whether we will succeed, but it’s still as important to us as it ever was.

Thankfully, for those of my audience who care and want to hear all the music, every recording I have ever released will soon be available in Xstream high resolution quality at my complete online archive. Check it out. We will be announcing it very soon.

Neil Young

PoNo Players are now, officially, collector's items. Only to be had on Ebay & the like.....
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Castius

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Re: Pono is Finished
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2017, 11:23:52 pm »

Thank you for standing up for what you believe in.
I've never understood why people would pay more for less. Simple because it was digital. Or that paying for one track should cost you more and without the art. It's just never made any sense.

Good luck and thank you.
Scott
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JimH

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Re: Pono is Finished
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2017, 07:06:57 am »

Quote from: neil young
Last year when Omnifone, our download store partner, was bought and shut down with no notice by Apple, we began work with another company to build the same download store.
Neil is leaving out parts of the story.  Omnifone went bankrupt and only then did Apple buy the assets.  I suspect this happened because Pono (Ivanhoe) didn't pay their bills.  We always had trouble collecting for our work, and they still owe us $28,000.  They may have only paid JRiver at all because the player timed out if they didn't.

Neil is an idealist, but he is not a business person.  In business, you make the calculations first, operate carefully, and pay your bills.  It was irresponsible of him to continue to try to build a streaming service when he still owed people money for the past work they had done.

Admit your mistakes, Neil, and move on.  Blaming the problems on the music business is something Trump might do, but it's not something Neil Young should be doing.  The music business isn't a boys choir, but they didn't cause the failure of Pono.
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herbsworld

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Re: Pono is Finished
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2017, 12:22:28 pm »

Where I come from they call that "Selective Memory".
It is ingrained within the PoNo For'em Community, far as I can tell, as well.
Neil has a long history of being a terrible business man. I agree with you about an idealist as well, ALA, "Hippie Dream".
But it's more than that. He is a Flip Flopper, Extremely Wishy-Washy, (Mp3's good, Mp3's bad - Streaming Good, Streaming Bad)  depends on the day of the week? or is it the Full moon?
before PoNo Neil's kick was Blu Ray Audio. And, much to his credit, he is one of a very few artists who care about the end product. released his entire NYA vol1 in full 24/192. BUT he also included an mp3 d/l card & "promised" *FREE* additions via BLU RAY Live. If that sounds familiar it is. The failed "PoNo Promise", just an earlier version.     
R. I. P.  PoNo           03~11~14 - 04~20~17
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chericaplanellery

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Re: Pono is Finished
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2017, 01:55:34 pm »

Neil is leaving out parts of the story.  Omnifone went bankrupt and only then did Apple buy the assets.  I suspect this happened because Pono (Ivanhoe) didn't pay their bills.  We always had trouble collecting for our work, and they still owe us $28,000.  They may have only paid JRiver at all because the player timed out if they didn't.

Neil is an idealist, but he is not a business person.  In business, you make the calculations first, operate carefully, and pay your bills.  It was irresponsible of him to continue to try to build a streaming service when he still owed people money for the past work they had done.

Admit your mistakes, Neil, and move on.  Blaming the problems on the music business is something Trump might do, but it's not something Neil Young should be doing.  The music business isn't a boys choir, but they didn't cause the failure of Pono.

Wow - I see this and wonder if Neil Young read it and knows all this.  I can't imagine where he made millions upon millions from the kickstarter program, that he would not pay a bill for 28,000.
JRiver provided good software and service and I purchased a license after Pono stopped using JRiver. I would hope that you sold a lot of licenses from people like me? Anyhow - I don't know the details and with a bankruptcy, who knows... But I would not give up trying to collect that money somehow because maybe Neil is not the best business man, but please don't compare him to T. That is unfair and I think you can prob kiss that money goodbye if he sees that comment. I think you have helped a lot of people who knew nothing about digital downloads and computers and who bought Pono because their fav artists agreed it sounded great. It seems to me that you are bitter and putting stuff like this out there instead of trying to work something out, is wrong and not a professional business way to do something.
I just sent you a message asking you a few questions before I saw this. I saw Neil's post last month but again your comments are not nice.  I hope you collect the money, but I am just saying that isn't the way to get what you want. Where's the love? Geez
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JimH

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Re: Pono is Finished
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2017, 02:05:56 pm »

We have tried to collect.  They don't return calls or e-mail.  The next step is to file suit.
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chericaplanellery

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Re: Pono is Finished
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2017, 02:58:42 pm »

We have tried to collect.  They don't return calls or e-mail.  The next step is to file suit.

I think that JRiver, did a great job of supplying their software in the background of what some people thought was Pono software. It worked from day one and whether I went on JRiver's forum or Pono's community type forum and put in a ticket with a question, I always got an answer from both no problem.  I usually just played around and figured things out as it is user friendly.

This hurts me to hear that Pono still owes JRiver a $28,000 bill. I truly don't believe that if Neil knew this, that he wouldn't take care of it somehow.  I would try to contact them another way maybe?
send a message to call you thru the Pono Community? try an alternate e mail address? Make sure that you get thru to him somehow. Good luck.
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JimH

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Re: Pono is Finished
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2017, 04:37:35 pm »

They know.  Neil knows.
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JimH

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Re: Pono is Finished
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2018, 05:07:21 pm »

Neil is leaving out parts of the story.  Omnifone went bankrupt and only then did Apple buy the assets.  I suspect this happened because Pono (Ivanhoe) didn't pay their bills.  We always had trouble collecting for our work, and they still owe us $28,000. 
To their credit, they offered to settle for 50% and we accepted.
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Gatherum

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Re: Pono is Finished
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2018, 07:31:18 pm »

Congratulations on the settlement. 50% is pretty generous on your part.
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mpffffhhhh

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Re: Pono is Finished
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2018, 04:52:24 am »

wow. glad you got some bucks
but terrible to hear that they failed :-(

i have a nice clear pono player here,
no more hope for a new firmware.

too bad
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