Topic: MC 9.1.202 -- New Tagging System... (Read 11082 times)

Matt · « **on:** June 18, 2003, 01:28:29 pm »

9.1.202 introduces a new tagging system.

When selecting files in Media Library, check boxes appear above. You can click these boxes to set file properties.

You can also drag-n-drop files there. Right-click "Edit" also works.

Here's a screenshot of the new system:

ftp://ftp.jriver.com/pub/downloads/music/tmp/NewTagging.jpg

Let us know what you think, and if you have any ideas for improving it.

Thanks!

Wobbley · « **Reply #1 on:** June 18, 2003, 01:34:43 pm »

LOVE IT!!! Will get back to you with more info once have time to thoroughly examine.

Dr. Wobbley

rocketsauce · « **Reply #2 on:** June 18, 2003, 01:58:05 pm »

Uhmmm....AMAZING

Rob

Omni · « **Reply #3 on:** June 18, 2003, 02:08:03 pm »

Wow. Haven't downloaded 202 yet (it's a 30 minute download for this pathetic dial-up user), but looking at the screen shot begs the following question:

With all the whiz-bang features being introduced in 9.1, what's going to be left for 10.0?

Omni

Mastiff · « **Reply #4 on:** June 18, 2003, 02:22:46 pm »

Very nice! But what is it with you MC people and cats? I had to chase two of those pests away because they were fighting outside my bedroom window only 20 minutes ago! I am close to starting to sleep with my shotgun or crossbow next to my bed!!!

drosoph · « **Reply #5 on:** June 18, 2003, 02:28:22 pm »

I like the ease of the new tagging system, great job.

#1 problem ... Party Mode lets people use the new tagging system to accidentally reassign tags ... I dont want my drunk friends redoing all of my tags by mistake

#2 Purely cosmetic, Can you soften up the box/checkmark graphic .. its a bit harsh against the Pix skin ... Is it skinnable ?

MachineHead · « **Reply #6 on:** June 18, 2003, 02:38:04 pm »

Uh oh, if selecting a song in the main pane and unchecking the artist, or anything else, causes an instant tag change, there should be a warning. I just did the artist thing without even thinking about what the outcome would be and it removed the artist from the track. No big deal, just re-selected artist and all back to normal.

How about a way to turn the tagging on/off somehow? This could be a nightmare if not understood properly. It's nice, but almost to easy to apply changes. I think there needs to some sort of check in place.

Tolga · « **Reply #7 on:** June 18, 2003, 02:50:55 pm »

I have not noticed this thread and have posted a comment similar to MachineHead to:

http://www.musicex.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=MediaCenter;action=display;num=1055976456

Matt · « **Reply #8 on:** June 18, 2003, 03:06:58 pm »

Quote

Uh oh, if selecting a song in the main pane and unchecking the artist, or anything else, causes an instant tag change, there should be a warning. I just did the artist thing without even thinking about what the outcome

That's what Undo / Redo is for.

And if more than 100 files get changed, it'll ask you first if you're sure you want to apply the changes.

JimH · « **Reply #9 on:** June 18, 2003, 03:13:48 pm »

Quote

Very nice! But what is it with you MC people and cats? I had to chase two of those pests away because they were fighting outside my bedroom window only 20 minutes ago! I am close to starting to sleep with my shotgun or crossbow next to my bed!!!

Cats belong in outer space. That's what catapults are for.

MachineHead · « **Reply #10 on:** June 18, 2003, 03:15:38 pm »

It's still to easy to screw up Matt.

Imagine if you're unaware and thinking you're making a playlist of some sort. Only to find out you axed a ton tags. I caught it. Someone else may not.

This form of in place editing could be a real bugger.

But I do like the speed of it. Just needs something to let you know you're about to do damage.

Marra · « **Reply #11 on:** June 18, 2003, 03:25:37 pm »

Great, I like it! Perfect for image tagging and also my sub-genres I've created as a list.
Thoughts :
1. Perhaps only display if properties selected. This would act as a warning that tags can now be modified.
2. Can media library view panes have check boxes also rather than the highlighted bars. Then it might be possible to check more than one item in a column?

Keep up the great work.

Pink Waters · « **Reply #12 on:** June 18, 2003, 03:25:43 pm »

ok...
1- its a little bit messy , but we will get used to it

2- Pleasssssssse we neeeeeeeeeeed the liberary to save the selectionssssssssssssssssssssssssss

Pink Waters · « **Reply #13 on:** June 18, 2003, 03:28:14 pm »

Yeah .. by the way .
we need a relation between "playing now" and the new tagging system from the media liberary .. so we can tag another files before adding them to the liberary!

Pink Waters · « **Reply #14 on:** June 18, 2003, 03:30:18 pm »

Quote

Uh oh, if selecting a song in the main pane and unchecking the artist, or anything else, causes an instant tag change, there should be a warning.

no no .. i think a small button above the media liberary to auto switch on/off that "smart tagging system" would do the job

Matt · « **Reply #15 on:** June 18, 2003, 03:32:55 pm »

Just tagged the "People" for tons of images. It's so much easier than before.

However, the list of people gets sort of long. Nesting could help, but it has its own problems.

Anybody have any cool ideas how we could make that better? (I can't get rid of the people -- they're my family

)

Oh, and now that you've all seen this new system, are you feeling like any less of a treehugger?

Quote

Cats belong in outer space. That's what catapults are for.

Cuddles didn't like that. She says bosses belong in outer space.

Matt · « **Reply #16 on:** June 18, 2003, 03:38:01 pm »

Quote

i think it has a very very limited tagging option and this is caused by checking a different artist/album from by the check boxes and that is the point ... so what if we used to put a new artist for a song not one from the artists that we have in our liberary!
so this new tagging system should have an empty edit box behind the check box to give a new name/artist/album .. if you know what i mean

I'm not sure I'm with you. If you pick a file, you'll notice a <new artist> (or similar) item shows up at the bottom. Just click on that check box and you can enter anything you want. Does that do the trick?

MachineHead · « **Reply #17 on:** June 18, 2003, 03:38:03 pm »

Maybe for images this is the cats meow. But for music it could be like getting pummeled by a cat-o-nine tails. Then you might be feeling a little catatonic.

Phil Lee · « **Reply #18 on:** June 18, 2003, 03:38:15 pm »

I think the new tagging system is great but should only be available for image files. It is very dangerous for music files.

Pink Waters · « **Reply #19 on:** June 18, 2003, 03:45:12 pm »

Matt,
what about my idea about a smart button for switching on/off the new tagging system so that would result less confusing and damaging for tags

Tolga · « **Reply #20 on:** June 18, 2003, 03:46:31 pm »

Quote

It's still to easy to screw up Matt.

Imagine if you're unaware and thinking you're making a playlist of some sort. Only to find out you axed a ton tags. I caught it. Someone else may not.

This form of in place editing could be a real bugger.

But I do like the speed of it. Just needs something to let you know you're about to do damage.

I cannot agree with this more. I hate the fact that anyone in the house has the power to change the names of all files, to the name of, lets say, the first file, buy just clicking on a grey check sign, to make it red !

All needed is a simple swith to make all tags read only.

MachineHead · « **Reply #21 on:** June 18, 2003, 03:49:11 pm »

Quote

Matt,
what about my idea about a smart button for switching on/off the new tagging system so that would result less confusing and damaging for tags

How original. Do you read any post besides your own?

Tolga · « **Reply #22 on:** June 18, 2003, 03:50:26 pm »

Quote

Matt,
what about my idea about a smart button for switching on/off the new tagging system so that would result less confusing and damaging for tags

There are other dangerous mechanisms. I think it should be a switch to write protect all tags / playlist names / possibly playlists.

Matt · « **Reply #23 on:** June 18, 2003, 03:57:36 pm »

Quote

There are other dangerous mechanisms. I think it should be a switch to write protect all tags / playlist names / possibly playlists.

Party mode -- it's already there.

And with tagging, "easy" and "dangerous" probably always go hand-in-hand. Personally I'll take easy. MC has undo. It also asks for confirmation before it changes many files.

And since the checkboxes disappear and only effect the exact selection, it's not that scary.

If there are ideas (other than obfuscating the feature so new users never find it) to make it less dangerous, please let us know.

Thanks.

Jaguu · « **Reply #24 on:** June 18, 2003, 04:04:34 pm »

It is a great system, but it may create great confusion.

It is like the transition from linear flow to turbulent flow to use a picture from fluid dynamics. Turbulent flow looks chaotic, but contains a higher degree of order and freedom and enables higher throughput. But, it looks really chaotic!

For images you may also introduce a field objects. In my pictures there are mountains, valleys, lakes, rivers, sunrises, sunsets, gardens, flowers, houses, cities, buildings, bridges, roads, cars, trains, islands, beaches etc.

NoCodeUK · « **Reply #25 on:** June 18, 2003, 04:09:38 pm »

Maybe this should be a keywords field. Semi colon delimited like the others.

Adam

MachineHead · « **Reply #26 on:** June 18, 2003, 04:11:14 pm »

Quote

Party mode -- it's already there.

This seems like a short sighted option for those who never needed it before.

Tolga · « **Reply #27 on:** June 18, 2003, 04:22:54 pm »

what exactly does the party mode prevents and allows? Can someone fill the following list:

- changes on actual files
- changes in library tags
- add/delete to playlist
- rename/delete playlists
- changes to view schemes.

I think it changes the tags in the library, but does not change the physical files. If this is the case, maybe the solution is that the party modes becomes more protective, not allowing to change the tags in the library.

I wonder what happens if I change the tags of A in party mode, the library changes but the file does not, I get out of the party mode, I make another change on A, I suspect the previous change in the library will also be written on A. Is this correct?

Matt · « **Reply #28 on:** June 18, 2003, 04:29:08 pm »

In party mode, neither tags or the library get saved. (unless there's a bug -- it's been a while since our last party -- start a new thread if that's the case)

However, "Party Mode" is a horrible solution to making this new system less scary. I'm not sure it is scary, but lots of other people say it is. I'm not arguing.

Instead, let's brainstorm on how to make it less scary. The only requirement is that this feature doesn't get hidden so a new user won't find it.

Could it somehow be graphically more clear what is happening? Any other ideas?

Thanks.

Phil Lee · « **Reply #29 on:** June 18, 2003, 04:32:43 pm »

Matt, the simple way to make this less scary for me is to remove the option for certain fields in music files.

If you've ripped music files using MC they should have the correct tag info in them anyway so there should be no need for the tick boxes for things like Artist, Album etc.

I have just used them to change some genre tags and they worked very well but I can't conceive of an occasion when I would want to use the tick boxes to change artist information.

For images however the tick boxes are fantastic.

Matt · « **Reply #30 on:** June 18, 2003, 04:38:06 pm »

Quote

Matt, the simple way to make this less scary for me is to remove the option for music files. If you've ripped music files using MC they should have the correct tag info in them anyway so there should be no need for the tick boxes.

For images however the tick boxes are fantastic.

There really isn't anything music-specific about it. It an easy, graphical way to tag any media type.

Maybe the difference is whether a file is done being tagged or not. I'm not sure...

Tolga · « **Reply #31 on:** June 18, 2003, 04:44:12 pm »

Ok, maybe party mode closer to the solution than I thought it was. But it still have problems:

It allows you to change the tags, but when you exit and return, the tags are not changed. GOOD.

HERE IS THE PROBLEM:
the party mode selection does not stick if you exit and rerun MC. This is very counterintuitive.
I password protect my library, someone exists and reruns, and makes the changes.

1. If party mode sticks
2. if you add an icon to the menu (so that you can see its mode at any time),
3. if you can enter to the party mode with empty password.
(when I want to protect it against my mistakes).

It would provide sufficient protection. Also there should be a way to reset the password, because it asks the password once and you can make mistakes entering it. Currently, this is not a problem, because restarting resets it.

The general solution maybe user rights for different actions, login etc. but this is probably a topic for MC 10.

Matt · « **Reply #32 on:** June 18, 2003, 04:50:17 pm »

Tolga, please read my post above about party mode. It isn't the best fix to this problem.

To further discuss party mode fixes / improvements, please start a new thread.

Thanks.

Tolga · « **Reply #33 on:** June 18, 2003, 05:04:35 pm »

Quote

In party mode, neither tags or the library get saved. (unless there's a bug -- it's been a while since our last party -- start a new thread if that's the case)

However, "Party Mode" is a horrible solution to making this new system less scary. I'm not sure it is scary, but lots of other people say it is. I'm not arguing.

Instead, let's brainstorm on how to make it less scary. The only requirement is that this feature doesn't get hidden so a new user won't find it.

Could it somehow be graphically more clear what is happening? Any other ideas?

Thanks.

I think there should be a distinction between tagging mode and playing mode. Maybe using a very visible one click switch.

There may be some other behavior differences based on this mode. I don't know yet which.

Mike Noe · « **Reply #34 on:** June 18, 2003, 05:42:43 pm »

How about this....one of those "Don't show this message again" checkbox/dialogs everytime someone changes the tags via the checkboxes in the view scheme. Simple click, it goes away, one more click it goes away forever.

Doof · « **Reply #35 on:** June 18, 2003, 05:43:11 pm »

Here's an awesome idea I just came up with...

How about a button, placed very prominently above the right hand panes, that toggles it between Browse Mode and Tagging Mode.

Sorry, Machinehead... I had to do it...

But it could definitely work. It could have a graphic that changes depending on which mode you're in... eyeglasses for browsing and a pencil for tagging or something... Maybe it should even reset back to browsing whenever you change View Schemes...

Pink Waters · « **Reply #36 on:** June 18, 2003, 06:46:13 pm »

yeah Doof,
that was my idea that i came up with it first

rocketsauce · « **Reply #37 on:** June 18, 2003, 06:51:57 pm »

Quote

Perfect for image tagging...

Yes, it's similar to the tagging systems used in image cataloging software like Photoshop Album or iMatch. We'll have to see whether it turns out to be the perfect system for tagging music files.

Quote

It also asks for confirmation before it changes many files.

Maybe the amount of files required for the confirmation should be fairly low...say like 20 or 30...or maybe when the selection consists of files from more than one album or directory.

Quote

...toggles it between Browse Mode and Tagging Mode.

I like this idea. In "browse mode" you get the View Scheme panes above the track list and in "tag mode" you get the tagging panes. That way the two processes are kind of mutually exclusive. Maybe something similar to the tabbed interface in Tag&Rename. I think even PS Album and iMatch employ this kind of task-dependent "morphing" interface.

Rob

sraymond · « **Reply #38 on:** June 18, 2003, 07:40:07 pm »

Quote

How about a button, placed very prominently above the right hand panes, that toggles it between Browse Mode and Tagging Mode.

Not sure who's idea this really is - not that it matters... but here's my thought.

I thought there's already a way to tell between the "browse" mode and "tag" modes (which already exists):
- Whenever nothing in the selection window is selected, there are no checkboxes next to the column's field values. This is "browse" mode.
- Whenever something (or somethings) in the selection window are selected, there are checkboxes next to the column's field values. This is "tag" mode.

My observation is that it's not obvious to the new user that the checkboxes are what make the difference. And it's not obvious what to do to make the checkboxes go away - it's tempting to click on an <all>, which works fine (all the checkboxes go away), but a toggle might make it easier for some people.

I also notice that clicking on the checkbox has a very different action (applying that tag to the selection) than clicking on the name next to the checkbox (setting the selection restriction to that tag). I like this, but others might not find this very intuitive.

Overall, the new tagging system works great for photos and videos! I hope we can come up with a way to group some fields (especially people - family and friends would help a lot!)

Scott-

ccullers · « **Reply #39 on:** June 18, 2003, 07:47:08 pm »

Quote

Here's an awesome idea I just came up with...

How about a button, placed very prominently above the right hand panes, that toggles it between Browse Mode and Tagging Mode.

Sorry, Machinehead... I had to do it...

But it could definitely work. It could have a graphic that changes depending on which mode you're in... eyeglasses for browsing and a pencil for tagging or something... Maybe it should even reset back to browsing whenever you change View Schemes...

That is SUCH a good idea, that would make it where I could trust people to use the media center again (as it stands now, I am afriad they will mess it all up, just like I started to do before I realized what was happening)

Doof · « **Reply #40 on:** June 18, 2003, 07:51:56 pm »

Ok.... for those playing at home:

Quote

How about a way to turn the tagging on/off somehow? This could be a nightmare if not understood properly. It's nice, but almost to easy to apply changes. I think there needs to some sort of check in place.

Quote

no no .. i think a small button above the media liberary to auto switch on/off that "smart tagging system" would do the job

Quote

Matt,
what about my idea about a smart button for switching on/off the new tagging system so that would result less confusing and damaging for tags

Quote

How original. Do you read any post besides your own?

Quote

Here's an awesome idea I just came up with...

How about a button, placed very prominently above the right hand panes, that toggles it between Browse Mode and Tagging Mode.

Sorry, Machinehead... I had to do it...

Quote

yeah Doof,
that was my idea that i came up with it first

Kambriel · « **Reply #41 on:** June 18, 2003, 07:55:48 pm »

My opinion; I don't like it. Too easy to click a box when in a hurry, then you have to do a lot of stuff to get it back the way it was. I don't think the benefits are worth the aggravation this would (and has) caused me.

Pink Waters · « **Reply #42 on:** June 18, 2003, 08:17:13 pm »

Hard Ball !!

Cindy_B · « **Reply #43 on:** June 18, 2003, 08:41:19 pm »

Quote

My opinion; I don't like it. Too easy to click a box when in a hurry, then you have to do a lot of stuff to get it back the way it was. I don't think the benefits are worth the aggravation this would (and has) caused me.

I agree. It an error waiting to happen.... An error's take time.

JC · « **Reply #44 on:** June 18, 2003, 09:09:38 pm »

I like the idea of a browse mode and an edit mode. Additionally, it would be great if this mode could be saved inside a View Scheme. This way, for those that have their music tag "ducks in a row", they can save their music VS to be in browse mode.

Seems to make it easier to prevent undesired modifications.

Of course, so as to keep the feature visible to new users, it could be enabled by default with a notification window the first time a tag modification occurs? Or something similar.

I like the new system ... much more intuitive.

Omni · « **Reply #45 on:** June 18, 2003, 09:20:59 pm »

First, very important: I do not want to lose the dynamic checkboxes no matter what. The benefits far outweigh the risks in my humble opinion.

That said, I definitely vote for an icon (or keyboard short-cut, menu option, whatever) that puts one in "tagging" mode vs. "browsing" mode.

Since the current build is already doing this somewhat (© 2003, sraymond

), it shouldn't be hard to implement.

And for those of you who believe that all software should be made fully idiot proof (not possible, by the way), make the current view reset to <all> for all panes. (This way, if the user gets there by mistake, he'll be more apt to notice since apparently the check marks didn't clue him in.)

Omni

bennyd · « **Reply #46 on:** June 18, 2003, 10:27:17 pm »

It should be nice that if you click on a file, the pane scrolls down until the first selected box is viewable on the screen.

e.g. I have about 26 Genres, if I click on a song that is of the genre "Soft Rock", I cannot see if it's selected because I have to scroll down first in my pane.

If I have several artists selected it would be nice then to scroll the artist pane down until it reaches the first selected artist.

nila · « **Reply #47 on:** June 19, 2003, 12:02:13 am »

The new checkbox option looks powerful but I see why everyone is saying it's scarey.

It definitely is and with it in place how it is I'd never let any of my friends touch my machine with MC on it

Also, I see the problem u meant with grouping, it'd be nice to do - for people say to be able to do:
Friends
Family
College
Work
etc.
with values in each

Its also abit confusing when your browsing the library and u click on a file and suddenly the browsing tools have changed to tagging ones - I can visually picture my friends destroying hundreds of tags

Also for instance as my view scheme I have: Artist grouped - if I check the box that is: C-E - whats it going to do to my artist tags?

This new method in my opinion should be reserved for list data types and shouldn't be dependant on the view scheme.

One idea would be that in the properties panel - next to say the 'people' field there is instead of a text box, a button - u click the button and it opens the new panels with all the possible values of people - with a column for each group of people.
You use the properties panel like normal for most the fields except list types where u get to bring up the new tagging method so you can enter multiple values and it would lend itself easily to grouping via the multiple columns.

This new method, when fully refined will DEFINITELY redefine MC in terms of image tagging and managing - it's sooo much better.

MachineHead · « **Reply #48 on:** June 19, 2003, 12:35:38 am »

Hey whatever. It just needs something. This is a great idea, but to easy to just zorch all your hard work.

MachineHead · « **Reply #49 on:** June 19, 2003, 12:41:33 am »

Make it an option in: <click to add view> ---- Tag Mode

Additional: This could then be hidden from those you do not want playing with the tags.

Could also add a toolbar button. Wouldn't be that hard to add this, and falls under the graphical part of Matts request.

INTERACT FORUM

Author Topic: MC 9.1.202 -- New Tagging System... (Read 11082 times)

MachineHead

MachineHead

MachineHead

MachineHead

MachineHead

sraymond

nila

MachineHead

MachineHead