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Author Topic: What's Left to do for Audio?  (Read 4894 times)

weirdo12

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What's Left to do for Audio?
« on: September 06, 2018, 12:08:12 am »

Audio only mode, 100% PCM. I continue to keep current on MC releases even though it sure feels like all the development energy goes towards TV/video playing. No complaints - just an observation.
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tij

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2018, 01:26:22 pm »

Audio only mode, 100% PCM. I continue to keep current on MC releases even though it sure feels like all the development energy goes towards TV/video playing. No complaints - just an observation.

lol ... i feel opposite ... seems all energy goes to audio only ... looks like preferences drive perceptions lol
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Awesome Donkey

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2018, 02:34:53 pm »

What's left to do for audio? Seriously? MC already can deliver bit-perfect PCM at almost any bit-depth/sample rate available, supports native DSD and DoP, supports WASAPI, ASIO, Kernel Streaming, etc., has lots of DSP options, has the WDM driver (which is working good now in the newer MC24 builds), is actually capable of passing through MQA to a MQA-capable DAC as long as you use no DSP and have volume set to 100%, has multiple memory playback options, etc. I'm not saying there's no room for improvements, as there always will be, but MC's audio support in general is pretty mature these days.

Honestly, at this point (until something actually worthwhile comes around for audio) all they can really do in regards to audio is improve existing features and add new stuff to those features. I suppose they just focus on what's in need of attention the most and where the majority of customers interests lie (hence these topics). Video and TV support are works-in-progress with constant features being added (Blu-ray menus and UHD support comes to mind as major additions made in the recent past). Panel is another work-in-progress which is becoming more and more viable as a JRemote/Gizmo alternative on non iOS/Android devices. Of course, there's also the MC builds for Mac and Linux which are still working towards feature parity with the Windows builds (or at least what's possible with Mac/Linux, which TV support may not be and DirectShow/Direct3D stuff like madVR definitely isn't possible).

Just my two cents.
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DJLegba

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2018, 07:35:19 pm »

What's left to do for audio?

I used dbPoweramp to rip CDs and MusiCHI to help tag classical music. So those are a couple of things I'd like to see improved for audio.
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tyler69

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2018, 03:30:15 am »

What's left to do for audio?

I would like to see Airplay support (mainly as a renderer but I guess server would be also nice). The cherry on the cake: make it also work with convolution. Also evaluating the feasibility to use convolution reliably with WDM driver would be welcomed.
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tij

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2018, 06:51:03 am »

What's left to do for audio?

i actually think core functions of both audio and video are solid on JRiver. However, there is always something to add on to dress it up lol

quoting myself: “looks like preferences drives perception” ... i just meant ppl tend to think that developers work on anything else except what they want ... in truth, if looking at Release Notes ... there seems to be about equal addition/improvement to both audio and video ... same can be said for problem discussion on forum

Personally, I just tend to not notice BD menues because i dont use it ... but i do notice Zone Sync ... and i love it :) ... and greatly hope they can perfect it ... then who needs AirPlay anymore :)

Think that i like but likely not happen EVER ... SACD play from PC ... dual layer Dolby Vision from HTPC
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retro

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2018, 12:48:40 pm »

Atmos decoded.
Easier work around creating crossovers in the DSP.
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tij

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2018, 01:23:21 pm »

Atmos decoded.
Easier work around creating crossovers in the DSP.
lol ... thats actually video related
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swiv3d

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2018, 05:08:37 pm »

Cover art display and modification could do with an update.
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Guernsey

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2018, 06:26:54 am »

The search function needs looking at

Something like a Google page large and simple that can be typed into from across the room
The present search is a pain at the moment to search for tracks etc it's far too small
A drop down box next to the search to give this option or keep the standard one if you prefer
The search box that opens when you click in the present search box could be resized to the area you want and remembered by the program/windows
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JimH

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2018, 06:30:40 am »

The search function needs looking at

Something like a Google page large and simple that can be typed into from across the room
The present search is a pain at the moment to search for tracks etc it's far too small
A drop down box next to the search to give this option or keep the standard one if you prefer
The search box that opens when you click in the present search box could be resized to the area you want and remembered by the program/windows
If you're using MC from across the room, please try Theater View.  F11 to get there and back.  Or Green Button on a Media Center Remote.
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Guernsey

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2018, 06:36:19 am »

will check that out

Thanks
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michael123

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2018, 08:16:48 am »

Audio only mode, 100% PCM. I continue to keep current on MC releases even though it sure feels like all the development energy goes towards TV/video playing. No complaints - just an observation.

There are some -

1) integration with Tidal and Roon via WDM is still buggy, pink noise something can be heard
2) Support of DSD sampling rates against DAC capabilities - lacking
3) VST3 support missing
4) GUI is old school (doesn't really fit if you have infinite size of library)
5) Better conversion of DSD to PCM
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dtc

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2018, 09:05:57 am »

Bit perfect became the holy grail of PC audio partially because the OS was changing the data in unknown ways. Making sure the bits from the software get to the output is still important, but many people now want to purposefully alter the data within the program.  That is why MC has such extensive options in DSP Studio. Although MC adds options to DSP Studio, it does not implement many of the current advances.

In recent years, DAC manufacturers have recognized that there are multiple ways to implement conversion, including many different reconstruction filters, including linear phase, minimum phase, apodizing, closed form etc. Those filters can also be implemented in software, for example when the software is doing delta-sigma conversions. By implementing multiple filters, a software player can allow far more choices than an individual DAC manufacturer typically provides. For example, HQPlayer's main design approach is to  do  delta-sigma modulation with a large selection of filters available.

I do not expect JRiver to provide this type of multi-filter architecture. It is highly specialized. But it does show that there are certainly audio features that JRiver could add, if they so desired.   
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tij

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2018, 10:55:14 am »

I do not expect JRiver to provide this type of multi-filter architecture. It is highly specialized. But it does show that there are certainly audio features that JRiver could add, if they so desired.


… more like if its economically viable (which is totally understandable) … can charge for those filters reasonable price … pretty sure ppl who wants it wont mind paying extra for it :)
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retro

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2018, 11:10:14 am »

lol ... thats actually video related

Eeeh..how is that video related..?!?
Atmos is a sound format. Crossovers..well, do I have to explain how that is audio related..?!?
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tij

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2018, 12:24:44 pm »

Eeeh..how is that video related..?!?
Atmos is a sound format. Crossovers..well, do I have to explain how that is audio related..?!?
Atmos audio tracks are usually found in films ... so technically its implementations/improvements are related to video side improvements of JRiver (as opposed to pure audio improvement) ... and discussion was video vs pure audio development at JRiver (specifically ... if there anything left to develop for pure audio side of JRiver)

PS. I do not mind Atmos or DTS-X implementation myself ... but i think JRiver relies on ffmpeg (pls correct me if i am wrong) ... so need to pester those guys (much harder to do since they work for free?)
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AndrewFG

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2018, 01:34:55 pm »

I think there are at least two more things to do for audio in the UPNP / DLNA sphere..

1) whole house synchronised playing across multiple DLNA renderers (from different manufacturers)

2) re-streaming of streamed audio sources to DLNA renderers (proxy streaming server)

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retro

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2018, 03:01:50 pm »

Atmos audio tracks are usually found in films ... so technically its implementations/improvements are related to video side improvements of JRiver (as opposed to pure audio improvement) ... and discussion was video vs pure audio development at JRiver (specifically ... if there anything left to develop for pure audio side of JRiver)

PS. I do not mind Atmos or DTS-X implementation myself ... but i think JRiver relies on ffmpeg (pls correct me if i am wrong) ... so need to pester those guys (much harder to do since they work for free?)

BS. Of course I was talking about audio, not video. And to remind you, the topic was "What's left to do for audio?".. Nothing about "pure" in that topic...
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mwillems

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2018, 03:05:24 pm »

I think allowing for audio inputs (of any kind) on Mac or Linux would be a welcome improvement from my perspective.  Currently the WDM driver, ASIO line-in, etc. are Windows exclusive features.

I think there are at least two more things to do for audio in the UPNP / DLNA sphere..

1) whole house synchronised playing across multiple DLNA renderers (from different manufacturers)

2) re-streaming of streamed audio sources to DLNA renderers (proxy streaming server)

+1 on both of those too!
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tij

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2018, 03:34:47 pm »

BS. Of course I was talking about audio, not video. And to remind you, the topic was "What's left to do for audio?".. Nothing about "pure" in that topic...
Relax, dude … this topic was moved from poll on DSD importance … there was comment made there that ppl feel developers put more efforts on the video side of JRiver than audio (as in music listening) … then it was mention that audio (as in music listening) was pretty complete (whats left there to improve?) … and then the topic was split to avoid cluttering the poll (which it would have lol)

If you would read first few post of this topic - you would get it … so technically, while Atmos is audio, its development is part of video handling improvement

Did i mention that i actually support your proposal for Atmos implementation (as in not against it and not impartial to it)? ... Wont mind if developers do DTS-X too ;)
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Fitzcaraldo215

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2018, 05:21:31 pm »

Relax, dude … this topic was moved from poll on DSD importance … there was comment made there that ppl feel developers put more efforts on the video side of JRiver than audio (as in music listening) … then it was mention that audio (as in music listening) was pretty complete (whats left there to improve?) … and then the topic was split to avoid cluttering the poll (which it would have lol)

If you would read first few post of this topic - you would get it … so technically, while Atmos is audio, its development is part of video handling improvement

Did i mention that i actually support your proposal for Atmos implementation (as in not against it and not impartial to it)? ... Wont mind if developers do DTS-X too ;)

Why not Auro 3D as well?
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swiv3d

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2018, 05:31:49 pm »

I think there are at least two more things to do for audio in the UPNP / DLNA sphere..

1) whole house synchronised playing across multiple DLNA renderers (from different manufacturers)

2) re-streaming of streamed audio sources to DLNA renderers (proxy streaming server)
Although these are really networking requests I fully support them.
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Scobie

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2018, 07:48:59 pm »

Quote
1) whole house synchronised playing across multiple DLNA renderers (from different manufacturers)

I thought Zonesync did this, it doesn't?
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jmone

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2018, 07:59:30 pm »

I think there are at least two more things to do for audio in the UPNP / DLNA sphere..

1) whole house synchronised playing across multiple DLNA renderers (from different manufacturers)

2) re-streaming of streamed audio sources to DLNA renderers (proxy streaming server)

Agree.
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AndyU

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2018, 09:10:31 pm »

CDs and downloads are rapidly becoming a historical medium for Audio. imo MC has to take the  leap and integrate with streaming services and extend that integration to JRemote.
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tij

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2018, 01:33:52 am »

Why not Auro 3D as well?
yup ... that would be nice too :) ... as much as i would like these ... realistically, unlikely to happen in near future (if ever) ... proprietry ... AND need calculation of each object sound for each speaker base on object position relative to speaker (smells heavily proprietry stuff)
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drmimosa

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2018, 10:39:22 am »

I think there are at least two more things to do for audio in the UPNP / DLNA sphere..

1) whole house synchronised playing across multiple DLNA renderers (from different manufacturers)

2) re-streaming of streamed audio sources to DLNA renderers (proxy streaming server)

Totally agree. This is would be immediately useful to my audio system.
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JimH

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2018, 06:28:14 am »

Split Filters
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RD James

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2018, 07:10:32 am »

  • ASIO: add "maximize device volume during playback" option to match the same option WASAPI has. Without it, bitstreaming can break on many DACs.
  • Revamped Memory Playback system which:
    • Stores compressed tracks in memory.
    • Starts playback after the first track is loaded in memory.
    • Keeps a buffer of multiple upcoming tracks in memory, loading in new tracks as the current track changes. Ideally this would be based on keeping a minimum duration or buffer size full, rather than a fixed number of upcoming tracks.
    • Has a way to cache SACDs. Decoding tracks is not ideal, but would it be possible to cache non-decoded tracks from an ISO? If not, caching the entire thing would not be the worst idea these days if it was optional, as it's typically going to be <4 GB.
  • Rule-based temporary DSP switching; e.g. assign a specific DSP config if a file is tagged with a specific keyword. This would not persist after that track has been played.
  • Revamp of zones system so that a zone is a location rather than a single output device or DSP config. I currently need to use multiple zones per location because different audio/video formats/DSP configs require their own zone, which prevents a playlist containing multiple different formats.
  • Specify maximum DSD rate supported by DAC for bitstreaming.
  • Flexible channel mixing / resampling / volume leveling DSP, rather than being fixed in place as the first DSP stages. I have multiple DSP plug-ins which need access to the audio stream prior to downmixing or volume leveling in order to work correctly.
  • Quick toggles for zone configurations. By that, I mean being able to save a DSP setup for a zone which can be quickly switched via a button (similar to the repeat/shuffle buttons) for things like day mode/night mode/headphones.
  • Switch the default dither mode to TPDF dither rather than RPDF. Zero effort, and anyone that did not change it from the default gets a free audio quality upgrade.
  • Dolby Headphone support.
For browsing a music library, I would still really like to see a new layout for 'Panes' views where each pane is a vertical column on the left or right side of the screen rather than a single column that is divided vertically by each category that you add to it - similar to the old column view in iTunes.

The search function needs looking at
I don't know that it falls under "audio improvements" but I agree. I put together a big post with some ideas earlier in the year: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=115086.0

Cover art display
It still bothers me that library thumbnails are highly compressed jpegs unless you use HUGE thumbnails or a high-DPI display.

I thought Zonesync did this, it doesn't?
My understanding was that ZoneSync synchronized Media Center clients, not DLNA devices.
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JimH

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2018, 10:12:52 am »

Please don't use this thread for Tidal (or similar) requests.  We've said many times that we're not adding such services anytime soon.  The services are financially unstable.  You can read about it in this thread:

Why Streaming Struggles

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JimH

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2018, 07:01:35 pm »

Please start a new topic if you want to discuss GUI changes.

Two posts removed.
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weirdo12

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2018, 01:07:33 am »

Is there a way to detect if HDCD data is being played? And if there is, could there be an option to turn off the volume leveling automatically when that data is played instead of having to change DSP settings manually?
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Dawgincontrol

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2018, 02:27:00 pm »

Housekeeping items could be added or improved.

Examples:

Scripts for duplicate titles on different albums.  Present script must be an exact match including same album.  In other words one for duplicate content and one for duplicate title.

Scripts for unknown artists, composers, genre, etc.

Combine Albums Script for two part discs

Remove and replace scripts for things like comments, copy/swap tag fields, First/Last name swap, add/remove "Live" from song title, Remove/Add track number to tile (useful for usb in car), Remove/Add Disc Number, Replace "and" with "&" vice versa, etc.

Add a real lyric finder

Make it easier for users to adjust Standard and Theater view with a template or wizard.

These are just some of the things off the top of my head.  The lack or clumsiness of some of these things are why I still use other programs in addition to MC24.

As an aside, as much as I like the sound quality of your program (the best), I had to add a secondary program that runs with MC24 to finally get rid of occasional pops/clicks that I could never get rid of using buffering, changing memory playback, and adjusting different bit-streaming settings.  I know the difficulty of latency and buffering issues across a wide swath of platforms, but somebody seems to have figured it out.

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Coolhighend

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2018, 10:07:28 am »

It would be nice to see the Streamwriter naming the files according to the embedded file tags of the stream (if any) and even embed the tags in the files saved to disk.
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Mr. Tuesdays

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2018, 04:07:07 pm »

Ditto on the DSP crossover thing.  I've used MC almost exclusivity for audio, since version 16.  It's been great to see the progress in DSP thru each new version.  Just adding some more choices for crossover slopes would be a big step forward.  1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th order at least, with a choice of Butterworth, Bessel and L/R would make a solid ground for doing software crossovers.  Higher orders would be appreciated my many people.  DSP based crossovers are becoming more and more popular, JRiver can make them easier to implement.

If there were some sort of crossover GUI that made it all easier, that would be huge.  Even if it was a plugin for those who need it, it would be extremely useful.  I suspect that people who want good DSP crossovers would pay for a crossover plugin.

Thanks for asking!
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The Big Labinski

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Re: What's Left to do for Audio?
« Reply #36 on: December 26, 2018, 12:15:11 pm »

Volume adjustment over HDMI for AV-receiver - just an idea
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