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Author Topic: Beginner Questions  (Read 3626 times)

Rubbersoulmate

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Beginner Questions
« on: September 13, 2018, 07:18:44 pm »

Hello All - I am still trying out JRiver for a few more days...

I have managed to make the playback work for various formats of 5.1 music albums. However, I am running into a problem where it seems that I cannot get back to the right settings to enable my setup to play both DSD files AND still be able to play DST files.

I have an Intel NUC connected via HDMI directly to a Yamaha receiver.

If anyone knows the magic combination that I apparently had before JRiver crashed and could help me out I would appreciate it!

Thanks in advance.
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JimH

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2018, 07:30:17 pm »

What's a DST file?

For DSD, please take a look at Bitstreaming on the wiki.

HDMI itself has some limits.  You could do an Internet search for HDMI and NUC.
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Rubbersoulmate

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2018, 08:11:05 pm »

Hi - I mistyped. Should have said DTS! The DTS encoded CDs are the source. They play fine, as long as they are passed unmolested to the receiver - I think.
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JimH

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2018, 08:46:49 pm »

Bitstreaming.
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Rubbersoulmate

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2018, 10:13:19 pm »

I have HDMI set for bitstreaming.

Yesterday I could play 5.1 FLAC files that were 48 or 96 kHz sampling rates with no problem.

Today, I cannot seem to play anything above 48 kHz. My hardware has not changed.

I continue to have JRiver ask to convert me to 2 channel and I really do not comprehend why this is.

Any help appreciated.
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Rubbersoulmate

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2018, 03:39:53 pm »

Update - After being on a call with Intel for a couple of hours...

Turns out that the high resolution files will play just fine with the Media Player Classic - Home Cinema (MPC-HC) application.

However, JRiver will NOT play the files above 48 kHz in 5.1 surround. It always wants to force my settings back to stereo which of course defeats the purpose.

This all started a couple of days ago when JRiver crashed and gave me some error message - I did not (unfortunately) pay enough attention to recall what it was.

I only have two days left of my evaluation period and I love the overall 'full media' and library setup with JRiver. Can anyone offer any suggestions? Thanks in advance!
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swiv3d

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2018, 04:04:10 pm »

You could try restoring a library backup from before the crash. Might work - out on a limb here.
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blgentry

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2018, 04:22:21 pm »

You should examine your audio output settings in the DSP Studio: 

Player > DSP Studio > Output Format

In particular, look at the Channels section.  Channels should ideally be set to the same number of channels in your playback system.  If you have 5.1 channels, set it to 5.1.

While you are in this dialog, you might also examine the Output Encoding.  It should be set to NONE in your case.  After you set this up correctly, do some tests.  If it's still acting strangely, post back here with your results and we may be able to tweak a few other settings.

Good luck.

Brian.
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Rubbersoulmate

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2018, 05:13:22 pm »

Thank you for the suggestions!

I finally realized that it had to be something corrupted with the JRiver application itself. I uninstalled the program, but kept the library file, downloaded a clean copy and reinstalled it.

Now after messing a bit with the settings, I am back up and running.

I have it set to WASAPI output, channels = same as source, and I turned on Bitstreaming through HDMI. This now is allowing playback of various files including:

DTS encoded wave files (5.1 low resolution files sent to the receiver as encoded stereo streams), DSD files from SACDs in 5.1, and PCM and DTS files in 5.1 all the way up 96 kHz 24bit 6 channels!

Hoorah!
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Rubbersoulmate

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2018, 10:02:06 am »

Unfortunately the saga continues!

After about a week of everything working wonderfully, I am back to the same problem - SACD files and any other files above 48kHz sample rate will NOT play in 6 channel. Each time JRiver MC presents a message claiming that my hardware does not support this resolution but that stereo would work, would I like it to change my settings or cancel playback. And at this same moment, the other media players on the PC will play the 96kHz 24bit 6ch files without any problem.

I have uninstalled, downloaded fresh but can't seem to get it back to where I was once again.

Any suggestions? The most frustrating thing is not finding a good way to troubleshoot this.
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JimH

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2018, 10:20:25 am »

Next time it happens, try power cycling your receiver.
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rec head

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2018, 12:11:04 pm »

It sounds like it might be an HDMI connection problem. For some reason the AVR might be reporting to the computer and JRiver that it is only a stereo device.

1) Like Jim said it power cycling the AVR might work.

2) Make sure your AVR is in a mode to accept the different formats.

3) Look into what devices are connected to the AVR. Some other device, even a monitor, may be forcing the AVR into stereo mode. Simply having the other devices powered off might not even be enough. Sometimes they need to be completely disconnected or unplugged from the wall.

Although I haven't had this problem I have had definitely had some HDMI issues in the past.
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Rubbersoulmate

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2018, 03:13:05 pm »

I have cycled the power to the AVR and also the TV which in turn is connected to the AVR via HDMI as well. I only use the TV for display, and the AVR for sound of course.

No matter what I do at the moment, I cannot get any hi res (96kHz sample rate) 5.1 files to play or SACD rips to play. All other 5.1 files play fine.
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blgentry

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2018, 03:41:25 pm »

There are several possibilities here.  One is that the channel count is not what you think it is and your receiver doesn't like it.  You said above that you set your Channels to "Source Number Of Channels".  This is a bad idea in MC, even though it seems like the right thing to do.  As an experiment, try changing Channels to be your REAL NUMBER OF SPEAKERS.  If that's 5.1, then set it to 5.1. 

Another possibility is that some part of your chain (receiver, HDMI driver, etc) doesn't like sample rates above 48kHz and is failing to play them.  One way to check for this is to go to DSP Studio and set sample rates above 48kHz to downconvert to 48kHz.  You could try it one at a time if you want:  Start by setting 96kHz to downconvert to 48kHz.  Then restart MC and test.

Good luck.

Brian.
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~OHM~

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2018, 04:20:08 pm »

I think I had this problem, also try taking the tv out of the equation as a test.
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fitbrit

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2018, 10:54:11 pm »

Some SACDs are 5.0, and not 5.1. If you have source number of channels, like blgentry said, playback will fail. You need to either create a zone that will upmix to 5.0 to 5.1 or change your default zone output to 5.1 with JRSS.
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Rubbersoulmate

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2018, 03:03:58 pm »

Update: Now, I cannot seemingly find a way to get JRiver MC to output 6 ch audio at above 48kHz sample rate. 48kHz and below works great stereo or in 5.1

I can, however, successfully play 96kHz 24bit 6ch with either MPC-HC (media player classic - home cinema) or Foobar2000 or VLC media players.

I can also play 6ch audio from SACD ISO files with Foobar2000 after installing the right SACD component.

JRiver MC still insists that it cannot play either of the two previous lines unless I allow it to change my settings to stereo.

I have tried with a different TV and same result.

And I should stress that this Intel NUC7i5BNH with JRiver MC has played all of the above previously.

I am stumped.
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blgentry

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2018, 04:50:32 pm »

Please post a screen shot of your DSP Studio > Output Format window.  I'm not sure if you've read or tried the suggestions I've made.  Seeing how you have it configured might give us some clues on how to help you.

Brian.
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Rubbersoulmate

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2018, 07:53:03 pm »

Hi Brian - I am sorry. Yes, I did try switching the number of channels to the 5.1 in DSP options. It did not seem to change anything.

I have now found that I can get the hires 6ch files to play with JRiver if I change the audio device to Direct Sound. Of course this setting will not play the DTS CD files.

I simply cannot seem to get JRiver to direct feed my audio files to the AVR which is what I want, and what I believe will work most of the time.

I have attached to image files as to my settings. Does that reveal anything?
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fitbrit

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2018, 09:55:55 pm »

I may have encountered this issue a few times.

- Once the solution was to buy an HD Fury device that forced the PC to see EDID information that would allow bitstreaming.
- Another time the solution was to simply use an external player to play multichannel files, since nothing I tried worked.

More recently, I learned about restarting the audio service, and that seemed to work immediately. I am not sure whether it could have worked for the previous two times I had the issue (each was on a different computer that did not belong to me).

I can't remember where to go. I think Control Panel> Administrative Tools> Services

Look for audiosrv.dll and restart it. No guarantees, but it's worth a shot.
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RoderickGI

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2018, 12:21:05 am »

It sounds like it might be an HDMI connection problem.

This is the problem. I'm almost 100% sure.

Your output device is your VIZIO E-Series 60” Class Razor LED™ Smart TV | E601i-A3. That is a stereo device. Unless you have the option to select your AVR (what brand, model?) as the output device, and therefore have to select the E601i-A3, then your TV is the HDMI endpoint and defines the capabilities that MC sees.

Your TV is capable of receiving 5.1 channel audio over HDMI, in which case it would play that audio using SRS Surround HD on the two speakers it contains. But if SRS Surround HD is not enabled, or the TV is turned off when you start MC, or start playback, or reboot your PC (not sure which) then Windows and hence MC may default back to only stereo support.

Okay, so other players play 6ch 96KHz 24bit audio at a time when MC can't. That probably means that those players aren't checking the HDMI endpoint before starting playback, but are using some cached information, or perhaps settings, rather than the actual hardware capabilities. So 6ch audio is sent to a TV that isn't actually capable of playing it, but the AVR in the HDMI path is capable, and so plays it.

MC doesn't allow you to set the Output Device channel capabilities, when using HDMI. It evaluates the HDMI path, specifically the endpoint, as I understand it, and uses that information to understand if the audio can be played on the Device. So MC is helpful in telling you if your output format is beyond the capabilities of the target Device, and offers to downmix to something that will, in fact, be playable. That all comes down to the Windows HDMI Path/Chain functionality.

Did you try this?
I think I had this problem, also try taking the tv out of the equation as a test.
Then check if the AVR now appears as an available Output Device in MC, and select that, then test the audio again.

Does MC only fail to play 6ch audio when the TV is turned off?
Do you completely power down the TV, or leave it in Standby?
Does your AVR have a setting to enable it to be seen as the HDMI endpoint? Maybe passthrough Off, if that still allows the video to pass to the TV?

- Once the solution was to buy an HD Fury device that forced the PC to see EDID information that would allow bitstreaming.

This seems to be the most common and reliable solution. But it involves spending money.

More recently, I learned about restarting the audio service, and that seemed to work immediately.

This makes sense, as restarting the Audio Service probably forces Windows to re-evaluate the HDMI path, and if it sees a device that is capable of 6ch audio (i.e. the TV is turned on maybe), then 6ch audio can be played.

The real solution is to understand the HDMI path in your environment, and ensure that MC always sees a 6ch capable device. So the solutions are;
1. If MC sees your AVR as a possible Output Device, select that and all should be good.
2. Set the TV to support SRS Surround and have it on when you want to play 6ch audio. This would be an easy, cheap solution if MC only fails to play 6ch audio if the TV is off, assuming that you reboot the PC, restart MC, or start playback only when the TV is on. You will need to experiment with which solution works.
3. Change settings in your AVR so that it is seen as the HDMI endpoint, if possible, so that Windows and hence MC use the AVR capabilities to decide what audio formats can be played.
4. Get a HD Fury, HDMI Doctor, or similar device and fit it between the PC and your AVR, and set it to be the HDMI endpoint and/or report that the HDMI Chain has the capability to play 6ch audio.

There may be other ways to force Windows to see your equipment as 6ch capable. For example, you may be able to set the correct monitor type in Windows, and hence set default EDID data correctly, so that that HDMI Chain always knows it is 6ch capable. This solution may still rely on the TV being turned on when you try playback, or start MC, or start the PC.


Simple, huh?

Oh, and I just read back and noticed that you are using a NUC connected to your Yamaha AVR. In that case, you definitely need to take Jim's advice from the first reply; search on NUC HDMI capabilities. Specifically, the Intel iGPU in some NUC models doesn't support 6ch PCM I think, which is why it may be necessary to Bitstream 6ch audio.
See https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,117160.msg810507.html#msg810507

Perhaps also test your TV capabilities using the Entech Monitor Asset Manager 2.9 utility mentioned in the above thread.

However you did say;
And I should stress that this Intel NUC7i5BNH with JRiver MC has played all of the above previously.

That NUC is supposed to be capable of 7.1 digital (HDMI mDP), so it should be okay. But Intel did remove some audio capabilities from their NUCs, according to reports: https://communities.intel.com/thread/115625?start=15&tstart=0

So if your NUC is capable of outputting 6ch PCM, then you could let MC output everything in PCM and then you would be able to use MC's DSP capabilities. If you Bitstream audio, you don't get to use MC's DSP.

Then in that case, the problem is most likely the HDMI Path and Endpoint issue as above.
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

Rubbersoulmate

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2018, 10:40:45 am »

First, thanks to all for continuing to provide suggestions! Really helps me get into more serious troubleshooting mode!

RoderickGI, I am ordering an adapter so that I can connect the NUC to my HDTV via the USB 3.0 port. This will isolate the Yamaha AVR on the HDMI from the display on the USB 3.0. At the moment, I have tried two different HDTVs, but only they are ever noted as choices in the audio output device.

So far, I have never had a choice on audio output device - it has never 'seen' the AVR even with bypass turned off on the receiver. Unfortunately none of my PC monitors have HDMI, only DVI or VGA - thus I am ordering the adapter above. I hope to have that to try tomorrow!

Restarting the 'service' also sounds intriguing, although doesn't that service restart each time the NUC PC is rebooted anyway? Still, may be something else to look into deeper...

Again, thanks all for the great questions and suggestions!
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rec head

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2018, 11:18:13 am »

You may need to set the AVR as the device in Windows before doing it in Media Center.
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blgentry

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2018, 02:18:16 pm »

I wish Mr Rubbershoemate the best of luck with this!

That said, boy these HDMI problems are painful.  This reinforces the idea for me that it's probably best to use a USB based multi-channel DAC with MC.  That way audio and video are separate and will not give you these odd handshaking/configuration issues that HDMI seems to do more often that we'd like. 

Again, best of luck to the OP on fixing this.

Brian.
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JimH

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2018, 03:21:27 pm »

I wish Mr Rubbershoemate the best of luck with this!

That said, boy these HDMI problems are painful.  This reinforces the idea for me that it's probably best to use a USB based multi-channel DAC with MC.  That way audio and video are separate and will not give you these odd handshaking/configuration issues that HDMI seems to do more often that we'd like. 

Again, best of luck to the OP on fixing this.

Brian.
FWIW, I use HDMI everywhere.  I have problems with it only occasionally.
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Rubbersoulmate

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2018, 07:04:56 pm »

Hey JimH, do you (or others) see both an AVR and (if present) a downstream TV as choices for your audio device from Windows 10?
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JimH

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2018, 07:18:31 pm »

If your setup is this:

PC > AVR > TV

Then MC will show the AVR as a choice for Audio and Video.  It won't show the TV, since it isn't directly connected.
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RoderickGI

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2018, 08:01:15 pm »

Restarting the 'service' also sounds intriguing, although doesn't that service restart each time the NUC PC is rebooted anyway? Still, may be something else to look into deeper...

With HDMI, timing is everything. In some installations users have to turn on connected devices in a specific sequence to get them working. I suspect the same issue could occur on a restart of the NUC, or other PC. Something isn't detected in time for the HDMI Path to be set correctly. Restarting the audio service when everything is connected and detected could then result in the HDMI Path being correctly set.

My 2016 GTX 1060 directly connected to my 2016 Sony X9300D Smart TV still has minor issues at times, which seem to be HDMI related. Videos will black out for a couple of seconds, like the TV is handshaking with the PC again, during playback. It displays the connection information after doing this, so I know that is what it is doing. I also see resolution glitches occasionally if I am fiddling with settings. HDMI 2.0 is better than earlier versions, but it still isn't perfect.


BTW, you are connecting the NUC to the HDTV via USB 3.0, and the NUC to the AVR via HDMI?

Normally that would be the other way around. Your HDTV has a USB 3.0 input for video?


If your setup is this:

PC > AVR > TV

Then MC will show the AVR as a choice for Audio and Video.  It won't show the TV, since it isn't directly connected.

It seems Jim that Windows will often show the Endpoint in the HDMI Chain of connections, rather than the directly connected devices. Why that happens, or how to control it, I have never seen documented. HDMI is a law unto itself.
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

dtc

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2018, 08:34:43 pm »


It seems Jim that Windows will often show the Endpoint in the HDMI Chain of connections, rather than the directly connected devices. Why that happens, or how to control it, I have never seen documented. HDMI is a law unto itself.

HDMI looks for the last device in the chain. Most AVRs have an option to show either the AVR as the endpoint or the device attached to HDMI Out as the endpoint. The user can then select which device to show as the endpoint. That is the standard way to be sure a cable box or a Blu Ray player sends surround sound rather than the 2 channel that most TVs  support.

EDIT: Most AVRs have an option to show the audio endpoint and the video endpoint separately as either the TV or the AVR.  I was specifically talking about the audio endpoint above.
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Rubbersoulmate

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2018, 10:12:22 pm »

I cannot find anything to set HDMI on my Yamaha AVR (RX-A700) to be the endpoint. I have turned pass through on and off with no effect.

I also tried restarting the Windows Audio Endpoint service with everything up and running but still I only see the Vizio TV as an audio device in Windows.

My connection so far has always been Intel NUC via HDMI to Yamaha AVR via HDMI to Vizio TV for monitor only.

I have ordered a USBc to HDMI adapter so that I can try NUC via HDMI to Yamaha for audio only, and then NUC via USBc to HDMI on Vizio TV for monitor.

That adapter is supposed to arrive tomorrow so I can give that a try. Fingers crossed...
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dtc

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2018, 06:28:07 am »

I believe it is set with the Audio Output option in HDMI Setup Options   - page 92 of the manual.   That should allow the TV to be the  video endpoint and the AVR to be the audio endpoint.
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Rubbersoulmate

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2018, 10:15:24 am »

I have tried changing the audio output options as on pg 92 but still no Yamaha AVR shows up on the audio devices choices.
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dtc

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2018, 11:03:01 am »

Unfortunately, I do not typically use HDMI with MC,  so I cannot help you with that issue. I just wanted to point out that there is an option on most AVRs to insure that the TV is not seen as the audio when a TV is connected to HDMI out.
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RoderickGI

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2018, 06:57:22 pm »

I have tried changing the audio output options as on pg 92 but still no Yamaha AVR shows up on the audio devices choices.

I suspect that you would at least need to power down and restart the AVR and MC, and maybe reboot the PC to get the new HDMI setting to work. Did you try that?

The description in the manual isn't really clear either. It could be much simpler!
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

dtc

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2018, 08:41:40 pm »

The description in the manual isn't really clear either. It could be much simpler!

Totally agree.  They describe the action but never describe why.  But at least they have a manual. These days many devices have a 5 page manual, most of which is stupid safety stuff.
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Rubbersoulmate

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2018, 07:27:20 am »

The trail continues...

I now have the USBc to HDMI adapter. If I connect the Yamaha AVR to the HDMI port of the NUC without the TV connected to the HDMI output from the Yamaha the NUC connects to the Yamaha AVR as the audio device. So that works, and it is great, but...

The moment I reconnect the HDMI out from the AVR to the TV, the AVR audio device disappears as a choice on the NUC. What this means in practice is that I have no connection then between my AVR and all OTHER components of my system, cable box, etc.

So, I can plug and unplug my way to make everything work, but it is less than optimal. For now, I disconnect the TV from the Yamaha to use the NUC to play music, then I plug that HDMI back into the TV from the AVR in order to do any other activity, i.e. watch the football game last night.
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rec head

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2018, 07:57:42 am »

It's fun right?

Sometimes putting something else in your HDMI chain can help. I have used the HDMI Detective as well as HDMI splitters between my HTPC and AVR just to get everything running.

When I had two TVs connected to my AVR the small TV would mess up my signal chain. I ended up putting it on a smart switch that would power it off at the wall and using my Harmony remote to power it on/off as necessary. This was because even with the TV powered off normally it was still part of the HDMI signal chain.

My current setup is pretty good but sometimes Media Center in Standard View will keep cycling a black screen. Unplugging the HDMI cable from the HTPC and plugging it back in solves it instantly.

As far as I understand it most of these problems are due the the HDCP (High-bandwidth Digital Copy Protection) that is baked in to HDMI. I think we are just 1 more copy protection standard away from getting rid of piracy forever.
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RoderickGI

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2018, 09:52:37 pm »

The trail continues...

But does it all work if you use the USBc to HDMI adapter to connect from the NUC to the TV, and use the normal HDMI port on the NUC to connect to the AVR? Two separate paths, so MC should see both and allow you to select either in Audio Output.

I now have the USBc to HDMI adapter. If I connect the Yamaha AVR to the HDMI port of the NUC without the TV connected to the HDMI output from the Yamaha the NUC connects to the Yamaha AVR as the audio device. So that works, and it is great, but...

That was expected, given the previous discussion. It sounds like the AVR setting we discussed above isn't working, or isn't set right.

Inputs to your AVR from other devices shouldn't be affecting this at all. Only what is connected to the HDMI output on the AVR should affect the HDMI Path.

Have you fully powered down everything, plugged from the power socket, waited a few minutes while connecting everything as you want, then powered on again? Maybe that is needed to get the HDMI Path to be detected properly/

Maybe there is a firmware update that fixes the AVR? Maybe this issue is discussed on the Yamaha forum?
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

Rubbersoulmate

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2018, 11:52:10 am »

At some level I must enjoy it, or I would have given up years before this latest set of challenges!

Yes, I have the USBc path used for the HDTV monitor and the HDMI of the NUC for the audio path to the AVR. This results in two remaining challenges:

I cannot see the on-screen menus/settings/information from the AVR since it is now out of the video path AND
All of the other components connected to HDMI inputs on the AVR need the path with the AVR HDMI connected to the HDTV to be utilized.

So, I have just ordered an HDMI switch to connect the HDMI outputs from the AVR and the NUC into, and the output then on to the HDTV. At least this will keep me from having to plug and unplug HDMI cables to switch between say my Roku or Cable box and the NUC.
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rec head

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2018, 12:09:13 pm »

First thing to try is putting the switch between the AVR and TV. If that doesn't help try putting it between the HTPC and AVR. Make sure to FULLY power down the equipment after putting the switch in the chain.

Sounds crazy but it may sort out the HDMI signal chain and you won't ever need it to "switch".
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Rubbersoulmate

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2018, 11:29:35 am »

Thanks for that suggestion. I will sure give it a try. That would be great if it would work without switching back and forth!

Should have it tomorrow...
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Rubbersoulmate

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #41 on: October 04, 2018, 08:22:19 am »

Nearly ideal...

So now I have an HDMI switch installed between the HDMI input of the HDTV and able to select between 1) HDMI output of the Yamaha AVR and 2) USBc to HDMI adapter connected to the NUC.

I have NOT found anyway, combination of sequence of startup, etc., to make the original and more straightforward connection of NUC HDMI to Yamaha AVR HDMI to Vizio TV. Anytime this connection is made, the NUC audio choice is ALWAYS the Vizio TV and this screws up audio output.

So, for now, until/unless there is a way to make the most desirable and common connection work, this will be me.

Thanks to everyone for all of the suggestions and input!
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RoderickGI

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #42 on: October 04, 2018, 05:52:15 pm »

Not ideal.

Did you contact Yamaha support, or investigate their forums? It seems like this is a failure of that setting in their firmware, so maybe there is a fix, or they could advise.
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

wer

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Re: Beginner Questions
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2018, 01:45:11 am »

There are some people much more knowledgeable than I who have provided input here, but I'm going to chime in with a couple of thoughts because my setup has some similarities with yours.

I also have a Yamaha processor (but it's the CX-A5000).  It handles absolutely every format (except Atmos) and I have never had JRiver send anything to it that the Yamaha couldn't handle properly.

One thing I would try, since your goal is sound output through the Yamaha, is that your "Audio Output" options on the Yamaha should be as follows:
Amp=ON
Out=OFF

This should strip any audio from going to the TV connected to monitor out, and all audio will be internally processed on the Yamaha.

You can download a handy program called Moninfo (Monitor Asset Manager) from https://www.entechtaiwan.com/util/moninfo.shtm.  This util will directly query the HDMI device EDID and report back to you everything that is supported (audio formats, etc).  This is much more reliable than the often-wrong "Supported Formats" tab in Windows.  This way you'll know for sure if a particular format is supported; if Moninfo says it is, and your PC still won't output it, it's a software problem on the PC.

As far as JRiver settings, you can try setting your output format to 7.1 channels, with no upmixing or downmixing.  If you have any files with unusual formats (like 5.0) JRiver will still output them as 7.1, with any channels not in the source muted, which to the Yamaha will be effectively the same.  (The only difference is the Yamaha's behavior when you try to apply soundfields (if you're into that); if you're using soundfields, leaving "source number of channels" is preferable in my experience.)

The big difference between my setup and yours is that I have an AMD video card as the output, instead of whatever is built into a NUC.  That's the sound card and is obviously an important difference, and I don't really know anything about the NUC's HDMI audio capabilities, but I assume it's capable of all the standard things.

What you might find helpful is to buy a "Dr HDMI" from HD Fury.  I use one of these between the Yamaha and the PC, not because of the EDID, but because the PC stays on all the time, and Windows has issues when it sees the output device (the Yahama) get powered off and then back on.  The Dr HDMI is continuously powered on, and will optionally send whatever EDID you want to your NUC.

One of its settings is to read and copy the EDID from your sink (the Yamaha) and the another is to say "I support everything".  That's the setting I would try.

If you put the Dr HDMI in "I support everything" mode, the HDMI capabilities of your Yamaha (and every other device) will be masked from the PC; the PC will never see anything change.

At that point, if your PC still doesn't think you can output any particular format over HDMI, then I think the issue is with the HDMI drivers for the NUC.

Assuming the drivers are capable, the Dr HDMI will make your NUC believe the HDMI sink can receive anything, and the NUC will try to output it.  Then you can use the on-screen info panel of the Yamaha to see what it is ACTUALLY receiving.  The Dr HDMI won't modify the signal; it just lies about the EDID, so you will know what the NUC is sending.

This will eliminate any HDMI compatibility issues, although it might not solve your problem if the issue is with the audio component/driver on the NUC.  But I assume they're capable devices; JRiver uses one as an MC appliance, after all.

It's an $80 investment, but I found it well worth it.  It solved a big problem for me and has been very reliable.  Once installed, you never have to touch it again.
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