Topic: JRSS Mixing - 3.1? (Read 4269 times)

jmone · « **on:** July 17, 2019, 05:27:11 pm »

I've one zone with a 3.1 Setup (no surrounds) and have always used MC JRSS at 5.1 to the AVR that downmixes to 3.1 as there is no JRSS 3.1 option.... but I was thinking this may not be the best esp, for 2ch material as i would go 2.0 --> 5.1 (MC) --> 3.1 (AVR). Is there a technical reason not to have a JRSS 3.1 option?

Thanks
Nathan

JimH · « **Reply #1 on:** July 17, 2019, 07:13:28 pm »

Probably not. We'll take a look. Thanks for the suggestion.

Matt · « **Reply #2 on:** July 18, 2019, 07:28:44 am »

This is a tricky one because we already have a 4 channel mode and none of the code knows how to tell 3.1 apart from 4.0. Need to think for a while.

Matt · « **Reply #3 on:** July 18, 2019, 08:20:10 am »

I'm playing with using 1031 as the number of channels then just handling that everywhere.

50/50 on it working out.

Hendrik · « **Reply #4 on:** July 18, 2019, 08:29:40 am »

That sounds terrible. Why not just carry an actual channel layout around instead, in addition to channel count?
Most places should already do that, anyway.

Proper solutions always better then hacks.

Matt · « **Reply #5 on:** July 18, 2019, 08:32:09 am »

Quote from: Hendrik on July 18, 2019, 08:29:40 am

That sounds terrible. Why not just carry an actual channel layout around instead, in addition to channel count?
Most places should already do that, anyway.

Proper solutions always better then hacks.

It does know the right channels that are in the layout. It's just that the number "4" was already used.

I think it's working fine, so hopefully no bullets to dodge!

Hendrik · « **Reply #6 on:** July 18, 2019, 08:36:54 am »

If you actually put such nonsense like 1031 in there, you better start dodging the bullets I'm shooting!

2019 is not the year of hacks! It's the year of doing things properly!

kr4 · « **Reply #7 on:** July 18, 2019, 08:58:22 am »

Quote from: Matt on July 18, 2019, 07:28:44 am

This is a tricky one because we already have a 4 channel mode and none of the code knows how to tell 3.1 apart from 4.0. Need to think for a while.

Hmmm. I use a 5.1 channel output mode and, in general, MC knows how to apportion the channels from 4.0, 5.0 and 5.1 sources appropriately.

dtc · « **Reply #8 on:** July 18, 2019, 09:57:42 am »

There was a long thread on non-standard formats last year. Might be useful to review.

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,114295.0.html

And, 6.0 audio with no sub and no center did exist, although I am not sure how much is currently available. If you are looking at a generalized solution, you might think about that also, for completeness.

https://www.stereophile.com/news/10849/index.html

RoderickGI · « **Reply #9 on:** July 18, 2019, 06:47:36 pm »

No bullets from me, but...

From a usability perspective, using 1031 as the number of channels would be a bad idea. It's that sort of "inside knowledge" requirement that makes MC difficult for non-geeks to understand and use.

Using the actual channel layout, or more correctly the common format to describe a channel layout, would make more sense, so that MC knew the difference between 2.1 and 3.0, 5.1 and 6.0, etc.

If that also enabled MC to work correctly with all channel layouts when set to "Source number of channels", that would be even better.

Matt · « **Reply #10 on:** July 19, 2019, 07:14:34 am »

I wasn't planning on a user ever seeing 1031. But in any case, Hendrik checked in a more elegant approach, so life is good.

fitbrit · « **Reply #11 on:** July 19, 2019, 09:04:45 am »

Does Hendrik's approach mean that we will be able to use "Source number of channels" for 5.0 music, and not have to create a special zone just for this (common in DSD recordings) format? That would be great!

Hendrik · « **Reply #12 on:** July 19, 2019, 09:06:49 am »

It means nothing of that sort. It just lets us offer multiple options per channel count.

Source number of channels already worked just fine, its just that audio devices typically fail at their job and only account for channel count, and nothing else, even if you tell them. So the "pass-through" nature of "Source number of channels" is not actually what you want, since the device just doesn't manage.

fitbrit · « **Reply #13 on:** July 19, 2019, 09:11:52 am »

Ah, I get it. So it wasn't for example that MC couldn't distinguish between 4.1 and 5.0.
That's good to know, and satisfying - I can now tell people that MC is doing it right, but their hardware is too dumb!

Hendrik · « **Reply #14 on:** July 19, 2019, 09:21:35 am »

Personally I haven't really seen any devices that do it properly (on a PC), only software that automatically "normalizes" it to say 6 channel by adding an empty LFE channel, which is not ambigious at all. MC also does that for video playback through LAV (well LAV has always done that long before MC used it, since I was tired of that problem a long time ago).

fitbrit · « **Reply #15 on:** July 19, 2019, 09:24:48 am »

Quote from: Hendrik on July 19, 2019, 09:21:35 am

Personally I haven't really seen any devices that do it properly, only software that automatically "normalizes" it to say 6 channel by adding an empty LFE channel, which is not ambigious at all. MC also does that for video playback through LAV (well LAV has always done that long before MC used it, since I was tired of that problem a long time ago).

Is that a viable approach for audio too in MC? I can't see how it could be bad, immediately.
The situation is under control using ZoneSwitch, but it would be great to not have to set that up for every install of MC I do.

jmone · « **Reply #16 on:** July 20, 2019, 02:03:19 am »

Would this work on your 5.0 (to say 5.1 or 7.1 with a blank LFE Channel)?

jmone · « **Reply #17 on:** July 20, 2019, 02:20:20 am »

...Also "Source # of Channels" does not work well for some Videos where they (for some unknown reason) thought it was a good Idea to have 6.1 (Front: L C R, Side: L R, Back: C, LFE)... such weird layout just does not work well from a PC (you tend to get just 2ch output). Thankfully out of 1,000+ BD's only 11 have this bizarre audio layout (LOTR, Star Wars 1-6, X-Men and Face Off).

JRSS just works and looking forward to the 3.1 option.

Hendrik · « **Reply #18 on:** July 20, 2019, 02:49:10 am »

LAV Audio has an option to convert 6.1 to 7.1 by cloning the back center to back left/right if your system is weird in processing 6.1. I have thought of everything (of importance)!

jmone · « **Reply #19 on:** July 20, 2019, 07:31:27 am »

... well most things! [flamesuit] ATMOS/DTS:X detection [/flamesuit]

Hendrik · « **Reply #20 on:** July 20, 2019, 08:02:34 am »

I adjusted my post for accuracy!

fitbrit · « **Reply #21 on:** July 20, 2019, 08:49:09 am »

Quote from: jmone on July 20, 2019, 02:03:19 am

Would this work on your 5.0 (to say 5.1 or 7.1 with a blank LFE Channel)?

Yes that would definitely work. Currently, we have to have a mix to 5.1 zone especially for 5.0 and the rest is Source number of channels.

Hendrik · « **Reply #22 on:** July 20, 2019, 09:21:33 am »

I think a smarter multi-purpose option that can process all sorts of odd formats would be better then a dedicated 5.0 option. Akin to what LAV Audio does, anything thats not Mono, Stereo, 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1 will be transformed into one of those modes (the closests which includes all channel from the source).
If there is consensus which other common modes are also "fine" those could easily be added to the list of valid formats as well.

fitbrit · « **Reply #23 on:** July 20, 2019, 09:22:57 am »

Quote from: Hendrik on July 20, 2019, 09:21:33 am

I think a smarter multi-purpose option that can process all sorts of odd formats would be better then a dedicated 5.0 option. Akin to what LAV Audio does, anything thats not Mono, Stereo, 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1 will be transformed into one of those modes (the closests which includes all channel from the source).
If there is consensus which other common modes are also "fine" those could easily be added to the list of valid formats as well.

4.0 and 5.0 are the most common ones I encounter

kr4 · « **Reply #24 on:** July 20, 2019, 11:17:32 am »

Quote from: fitbrit on July 20, 2019, 09:22:57 am

4.0 and 5.0 are the most common ones I encounter

Yes. 5.0 is the most common channel format for classical music SACD; more common than 5.1!
I encounter 4.0 on some DVD/DVD-A discs.

jmone · « **Reply #25 on:** July 20, 2019, 04:34:06 pm »

Quote from: Hendrik on July 20, 2019, 08:02:34 am

I adjusted my post for accuracy!

jmone · « **Reply #26 on:** July 20, 2019, 04:44:17 pm »

Quote from: Hendrik on July 20, 2019, 09:21:33 am

I think a smarter multi-purpose option that can process all sorts of odd formats would be better then a dedicated 5.0 option. Akin to what LAV Audio does, anything thats not Mono, Stereo, 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1 will be transformed into one of those modes (the closests which includes all channel from the source).
If there is consensus which other common modes are also "fine" those could easily be added to the list of valid formats as well.

See you have thought of everything! The only thing is I'd prefer that it should not mix to more than the channel # set.

Hendrik · « **Reply #27 on:** July 20, 2019, 06:05:10 pm »

Quote from: jmone on July 20, 2019, 04:44:17 pm

See you have thought of everything! The only thing is I'd prefer that it should not mix to more than the channel # set.

The entire thing is only meant for "Source Number of Channel". If you configure a number of channel, it should always mix to that. Otherwise, why set this up in the first place.

jmone · « **Reply #28 on:** July 20, 2019, 06:17:59 pm »

I was thinking more:
- NEW: "anything thats not Mono, Stereo, 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1 will be transformed into one of those modes ", but
- Use Source # of Channels where < number of speakers
- Use JRSS Mixing where # of Channels > number of speakers

Does that make sense or am I talking out my hat?

FWIW, I prob would stick to JRSS as I'm just not that much of an Audio Purist, and with Video I like how 2ch gets a center channel.

kr4 · « **Reply #29 on:** July 20, 2019, 07:09:03 pm »

Quote from: jmone on July 20, 2019, 06:17:59 pm

I was thinking more:
- NEW: "anything thats not Mono, Stereo, 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1 will be transformed into one of those modes ", but
- Use Source # of Channels where < number of speakers
- Use JRSS Mixing where # of Channels > number of speakers

What I want is "Source # of channels" but in the proper order that my DAC/system expects. This is a more complex task.

Hendrik · « **Reply #30 on:** July 21, 2019, 04:20:22 am »

Thats what the idea is really about, either re-order channel as needed, or more commonly add empty channel to make devices interpret the channel properly, when in "Source # of Channels" mode only. Mixing should remain a fixed target.

jmone · « **Reply #31 on:** July 25, 2019, 02:54:19 am »

I've just tested the new DSP 3.1 options but I'm getting some Odd results:
- DSP Changes: "Convert 7.1 to 3.1"
- DSP Output "4ch using WASAPI (Direct Connection)"
- AVR OSD reports Input is 4.0 MPCM
- AVR is mixing it to 2.1Ch

And in listening, I've lost my Center Channel (so mostly lost all dialog)

Hendrik · « **Reply #32 on:** July 25, 2019, 03:46:20 am »

Are you sure the AVR actually properly accepts 4 channel as 3.1? It might interpret it as 4.0 instead of 3.1 and do whatever with it.
Looking at the analyzer during 3.1 output seems like center is ending up where it should be. There is an issue mixing surrounds in the current version which I have just corrected.

jmone · « **Reply #33 on:** July 25, 2019, 03:49:41 am »

The PIO allows for a 3.1 Speaker Config, but the EDID reported by Windows does not show a 3.1 option over my NVidia GPU. I DO see a 3.1 Option in Windows on the same AVR when I tested the NUC. I'll try on that and see what happens.......

Hendrik · « **Reply #34 on:** July 25, 2019, 03:55:24 am »

HDMI with anything non-standard (ie. not stereo, 5.1 or 7.1) is notoriously unreliable in my experience and should be avoided, or tested thoroughly.

jmone · « **Reply #35 on:** July 25, 2019, 04:01:16 am »

So tested with the NUC as it allows the selection of 3.1 from the Windows Audio Setup-
Windows Sound System Properties GUI = AVR reports it is receiving 3.1 and the channel map when it plays each of the test tones is correct
MC = AVR Reports it is receiving 4.0 and the channel map is incorrect (this time the diag seems to be focused on the EDIT LH channel)

Hendrik · « **Reply #36 on:** July 25, 2019, 04:16:06 am »

I made some changes that'll hopefully allow the channel layout to be communicated to Windows in WASAPI and DirectSound output mode.

jmone · « **Reply #37 on:** July 25, 2019, 04:27:23 am »

Thanks - I'll test in the new version, but FYI on testing the NUC a bit more:
- WASAPI seems to punch out 4.0 from MC.
- If I select Direct Sound in MC, then I can see it being received as 3.1 by the AVR, but there is no sound from any channel

jmone · « **Reply #38 on:** July 25, 2019, 04:30:50 am »

Also as a separate note, the GUIs in MC always reports the total # of CH eg, 5.1 is reported a 6ch. Would it not be better to report ti as 2.1, 3.1, 5.1, 7.1 etc?

jmone · « **Reply #39 on:** July 25, 2019, 04:52:00 am »

...and another thing. There was the ability in MC to test individual channels with a test tone (which I was going to use to see what was being mapped), but if it is in Tools --> Advanced Tools --> Audio Calibration, it only allows Stereo, 5.1 and 7.1 ..... or was this somewhere else?

jmone · « **Reply #40 on:** August 01, 2019, 03:29:05 am »

Quote from: Hendrik on July 25, 2019, 04:16:06 am

I made some changes that'll hopefully allow the channel layout to be communicated to Windows in WASAPI and DirectSound output mode.

Sorry - I'm not seeing any change of behaviour on either the nVidia or Intel HDMI HTPCs.

jmone · « **Reply #41 on:** August 01, 2019, 03:48:18 am »

Testing on the NUC using WASAPI & DSP Set to 3.1 and JRSS with Sub Clarity. (note: Windows Sound Panel set to 3.1 and works correctly):
- Audio Files play correctly, AVR Shows 3.1 is being received
- Video Files do not play correctly, AVR Shows 4.0 is being received. Center Channel is mapped to LF & LFE is not sent to the Sub

jmone · « **Reply #42 on:** August 01, 2019, 04:01:59 am »

Testing on the NUC using DirectSound & DSP Set to 3.1 and JRSS with Sub Clarity. (note: Windows Sound Panel set to 3.1 and works correctly):
- Audio Files do not play (no error just sits a seek position)
- Video Files play but without sound

To get MC to work using direct sound, I have to change the Windows Sound Mixer from 3.1 to another format like 5.1.

Let me know if you want certain things tested and/or logs.

jmone · « **Reply #43 on:** August 01, 2019, 06:25:19 am »

Testing on the nVidia HTPC using WASAPI & DSP Set to 3.1 and JRSS with Sub Clarity. (note: Windows Sound Panel set to 5.1 as there is no 3.1 options exposed):
- Audio Files do not play (Get an MC Error Msg saying it can not play this format)
- Video Files play but without a center or LFE channel (and the AVR reports 4.0 is being received).

Did not test DirectShow as there is no 3.1 option in the Windows Sound Panel setup.

jmone · « **Reply #44 on:** August 01, 2019, 03:52:17 pm »

...another thing i noticed is on my nVidia box is that if 2.1 is selected in DSP it is actually being mixed in MC to 5.1 and output as such.

jmone · « **Reply #45 on:** August 05, 2019, 07:07:04 pm »

Any more thoughts on this?

mwillems · « **Reply #46 on:** August 05, 2019, 07:37:05 pm »

Quote from: jmone on August 01, 2019, 03:52:17 pm

...another thing i noticed is on my nVidia box is that if 2.1 is selected in DSP it is actually being mixed in MC to 5.1 and output as such.

Just FYI, the 2.1 output format is actually "2.1 in a 5.1 container" but is not labelled that way; 2.1 always outputs six channels. Are you sure it's actually mixing to 5.1, or are you just seeing the 5.1 output in the audio path but with three blank channels (which is expected).

jmone · « **Reply #47 on:** August 08, 2019, 04:27:11 pm »

Thanks - I was just commenting on how the new 3.1 compared to the existing 2.1 (both in MC and on the AVR).

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Author Topic: JRSS Mixing - 3.1? (Read 4269 times)