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[logan9778]

Hi,

I'm trying out your Media Center 25, and I was trying to save tags from my .flac and .mp3 rips to sidecar only.  I don't like anything writing to my actual music files.  I've set write to sidecar file only in options, but no matter how I set it, MC still writes tags to the actual file.  MC also, somehow, changes the files attribute from read only to read / write, so I can't stop it from writing to it.

Thanks.

[wer]

I haven't tried to do that, and I don't think what you are shooting for is something I would recommend to anyone, but if this is the path you want to follow, you need to know two things.
1. Stop running MC with administrative account privileges, so that it can't override file system permissions.
2. Adjust your NTFS file system permissions so that only your administrator account has write access to your media files.

You need to learn about user accounts and NTFS permissions to do that.  Once you implement that, MC will no longer be able to modify your files.

If you don't want MC to try to update file tags, turn off the option "Update tags when file info changes."  The wording this option might confuse you because even though it is demonstrably wrong (misusing the the word file instead of more precisely saying metadata or library) JRiver refuses to change it.  See this thread, and its link to the wiki: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=115426.0

Even with this option, other things you do in MC, like RMCF, could affect the unless file system permissions prohibit it.

[logan9778]

If you don't want MC to try to update file tags, turn off the option "Update tags when file info changes."

Yeah, I've turned that off, and also have the option set to "write to Sidecar file only".

I even went into tag types, and turned off "write tags to file if possible" on every one.

It still writes to the file, and turns it from read only to read / write.

We need a setting that writes tags only to sidecar files.

1. Stop running MC with administrative account privileges, so that it can't override file system permissions.

Hmm, how would one do that?

[wer]

It shouldn't be writing to files if you turned that setting off, as I understand it.  Even if there's a bug, you can ensure you have your way by enforcing file permissions.  Personally I don't see the benefit of keeping tags in separate files from taggable files, unless it is to avoid a backup issue, but to each his own.

[logan9778]

I just don't like anything messing with my files.  It took me AGES to rip all the CD's I have.  Plus, I have some ripped Blu-Ray's and DVD's that work fine with the sidecar files.  So, I'd rather just stick with that.

I will look into changing the privledges on MC, at least it's a stopgap for now.

[RoderickGI]

I'm sure you have a complete backup of all your ripped files, so you can recover the untouched files. Right?

I'd be surprised if MC was still writing tags to files if you had the "Update tags when file info changes." unchecked. That is a global setting and applies to all tags.

I would be astounded if MC was writing tags to files if you had turned off every field from writing tags in "Options > Library & Folders > Manage Library Fields". Maybe you missed some, if the Date Modified on the files is still changing. Open the "Manage Library Fields" dialogue and in the top left corner, select "Only shows fields saved in tags" from the drop-down list. There should be no fields displayed, if you have turned tagging off for all fields.

But are you sure something else isn't writing tags to the files? Positive? Are you still running iTunes on the PC, or any of its Services? Some other tagging software? Because MC just doesn't do that.

MC also doesn't change files from Read-Only to Read-Write, even if running under an Admin user. Of course, if the admin user has Read-Write access, then MC isn't changing it. You are allowing it.


As you are talking about audio files, and have already set tagging to "Save in Sidecar only", then there is one more setting you should set correctly, "Options > General > Importing & Tagging > Create external sidecar files for media types:". That is a unique sort of drop-down list. You need to tick Audio in addition to the default Video, and any other file types you want to create Sidecars for.

That setting shouldn't make a difference between whether tags are written to an audio file or not. If Sidecars are allowed to be created for Audio files, and tags aren't allowed to be written to the Audio files, then MC just wouldn't write tags, saving the values only in its Library.


If you feel that MC is still writing tags to Audio files, and have tested that in a controlled way to be sure, could you provide a list of six fields/tags that you believe MC is writing to the files with the above settings? Then we could test. Wer loves testing. 

[wer]

As you are talking about audio files, and have already set tagging to "Save in Sidecar only", then there is one more setting you should set correctly, "Options > General > Importing & Tagging > Create external sidecar files for media types:". That is a unique sort of drop-down list. You need to tick Audio in addition to the default Video, and any other file types you want to create Sidecars for.

.......

Wer loves testing. 

Thanks Rod, I'd forgotten about that, as I've never wanted sidecars for taggable files.

As for testing, logan, if you will just say you're Australian, Roderick will be glad to do all the testing you like.  And he'll make a how to video for you.  And probably cook dinner for you.

[RoderickGI]

As for testing, logan, if you will just say you're Australian, Roderick will be glad to do all the testing you like.  And he'll make a how to video for you.  And probably cook dinner for you.

 

I got a chuckle out of that. Touché !

[blgentry]

Regarding whether or not to have MC write tags to your music files:

I most frequently see people that do NOT want tags written when they really aren't using MC for their main music system.  They are testing MC or using it for something really special and they use something else for most of their music listening, tagging, syncing, etc.

If you really are using MC for your music needs, then you should ask yourself some questions:  Are your tags perfect now?  Are you going to update any fields inside of MC, ever?  If your tags are not perfect and you *will*, at some point, update tag values inside of MC, then you probably want them to be written back to the files too.

That way, if you copy or move your music files to another system, the correct tag values will go with the files.  Sidecars are neat, but what reads the side cars?  MC only.  So how does that help you?  Tags in files are (mostly) universal.  MC makes library backups which contain all of the metadata about the files anyway.  So the sidecars don't do anything new in terms of metadata recovery, or transfer from MC to MC.

If you are gun shy about MC writing to your files, because another program in the past has butchered your tags, that's understandable.  But know this:  MC is on it's 25th major version now, with hundreds of sub versions per major version.  It's tag handling is world class.  I've never had an issue with it writing to FLAC or MP3 files.  SACDs are a different story, but they aren't very common.

You can pretty much trust MC to do the right thing with tag writing to files.  ...and then you won't need to mess with all of these esoteric settings.

Brian.

[logan9778]

Hey guys, thanks for all the replies.  Seems this program always writes to the tags as well as the sidecar files.  What I am trying to do is to manually update the tags using "Update tags from library", but it writes to the tags as well as the sidecars, and there is no way to tell it to write to sidecar files only.  Setting my files to read only doesn't work, as the program writes to them anyway ( changes the setting back to writeable ).

Would you please include an option to write to sidecar files only, and NOT to the original file?

Thanks.  I would like tags, but only in sidecar files.

[wer]

I pointed you to a solution which will work in any case, no matter what MC does, which is to enforce your file system permissions by setting them correctly and not running MC under an administrator account.  Do some research on NTFS permissions and user accounts, and you will be able to implement it.  Start by googling "run as different user in windows".  Or, you could just wait and see if JRiver ever addresses your request.

Good luck to you.

[logan9778]

Yeah, thanks for the solution.  I'm running two accounts now, one user which I use as my regular account, and then the built-in admin account I use for mass changing things.

MC is running under the User account with the standard User Privileges.

The problem is, MC 25 still changes the read only attribute at times.  At first, your solution seemed to work.  I just got errors when it tried to change the tags in the file, and it wrote to the .xml files which I left as writable.  But then I noticed today, MC started changing the read only attributes back to writeable again, and writing the tags to the files.  At user level, I of course can change these attributes, and thus, so can the program.  And it seems to  be doing just that.  I know this is not another program interfering with things, because I'm at the start of rebuilding my computer, have a fresh install of windows, and just MC and a few other programs loaded right now.

EDIT: Well, 2:30 AM here.  Got to get some sleep before I drop! :p  Be back tommorow.

[wer]

Then you've set up your privileges incorrectly.

If your account has write privileges to the files, and you run MC as your account, then MC has the privileges.  Do you see that this is not what you want?

You must deny write privileges to the account MC is running as.  If you want your personal account to have those privileges, then create a third account for MC to run under.  Deny the write privileges to that third account.  Disable permission inheritance on the folder.  Google ntfs permissions and inheritance.

If you'll use the Administrator account to change the files, then logon as Administrator, and deny your own account the write privileges

No matter what you imagine might be happening, MC cannot override NTFS permissions.  Based on your description, you have not denied it write access, so of course it can write to the files.  If you setup your accounts and permissions correctly, MC won't be able to write to the files, nor change the permissions on them.  Period.

And then you must make sure that you ONLY run MC under the limited account.  Google the runas command.

If any computer program is behaving a way you don't want, and you want to be able to control it, you need to learn how to control and configure the system to enforce what you want.

Good luck.

[logan9778]

I need write privileges so I can write to the directory.

I need modify privileges so I write to the xml sidecar files.

What I REALLY need is for MC 25 to RESPECT the Read Only attributes on the .flac, .mp3, and .jpg files I have.

Which it is not.  It is changing them. And writing to them.  I can see the Date Modified change, and the Read Only attribute disappear on the file, every time I try to "Update Tags from Library".  In "General", I have "update tags when file info changes" unticked, and under it, save to sidecar only.  It still ignores the Read Only attribute and writes to the original file.  Save to Sidecar only, should mean Save to sidecar only.

Only thing I can see to do now is to write a script file, using ICACLS, to turn off the modify permission on Authenticated Users for every non .xml file in the directory.

It's just going to take me a long time to figure this out, and be very tedious.

So, if your reading this JRiver, PLEASE give us the option to write to sidecar files only, or make your program respect the Read - Only attribute on files.

[wer]

Only thing I can see to do now is to write a script file, using ICACLS, to turn off the modify permission on Authenticated Users for every non .xml file in the directory.

As I said, create a another account to run MC under, with lesser permissions than your own account.

[logan9778]

As far as I can see, that won't work.  It would be the same as changing write and modify permissions under User, etc for the directories.  Which also doesn't work, because you are changing permissions in mass for every file, INCLUDING the .xml files.  Which are the ones I do want the program to be able to modify.

I see complaints in the forums about .tiff files and such not taking in tags correctly, so having an option to write just sidecar solves that problem as well.

Should be a simple change to the program.  Tagging Option: Write to Sidecar files only.  Do not write to original files.

[wer]

Should be a simple change to the program.  Tagging Option: Write to Sidecar files only.  Do not write to original files.

There is already such an option.  Are you sure you have the "sidecar tagging mode" option set correctly?  But you said in your first post it doesn't work.

As far as I can see, that won't work.

Because you don't understand how accounts and NTFS permissions work.  If you try learning about it, you'll find it will work and you have a way to get out from under this issue, even if your feature change is not granted.

[Yaobing]

I can not reproduce the issue.  It works for me.  I set my settings as follows:

General > Importing & Tagging > Sidecar tagging mode: Save in sidecar only
General > Importing & Tagging > Create external sidecar files for media types: Audio; Video

Then I change tags of an audio file (WMA) in MC25 and run Update tags (from library).  The changes are written into a sidecar file, and the wma file was not written to.

[wer]

You know what would be cool, Yaobing?  If by right-clicking on an option in the Options dialog, you could copy that option (or all options) to the clipboard (with their path and setting), so that people wouldn't have to type out all those options in the forum the way you just did!  What a great way that would be to make helping people in the forums easier...

[Yaobing]

Good idea!

[wer]

That'll be great if you can add that!  It'll save Roderick at least an hour a week.

[logan9778]

Well, I've done a few hours more in experiments now, and I still can't get it to work.

With "update tags when file info changes" checked, it sometimes writes only to the .xml's except for the .jpg's.  It always writes to the .jpg's.

Most of the time, it ignores the "write to sidecar only" mode, and writes to the original files.

Without "update tags when file info changes" checked, it always writes to the original files.

I give up.  It's an obvious bug.  I hope you guys can fix it.

Also, no matter which permissions I deny my account, to the point where even I can't manually change the read-only attribute, the program always does.  It seems to go through the NTFS permissions like they don't exist.  I have no idea how that is even possible.  It changes the read-only attribute on my files back to read / write, even though I can't change it manually, and the program is running on my account.

[Yaobing]

Well, I've done a few hours more in experiments now, and I still can't get it to work.

With "update tags when file info changes" checked, it sometimes writes only to the .xml's except for the .jpg's.  It always writes to the .jpg's.

Most of the time, it ignores the "write to sidecar only" mode, and writes to the original files.

Without "update tags when file info changes" checked, it always writes to the original files.

I give up.  It's an obvious bug.  I hope you guys can fix it.

Also, no matter which permissions I deny my account, to the point where even I can't manually change the read-only attribute, the program always does.  It seems to go through the NTFS permissions like they don't exist.  I have no idea how that is even possible.  It changes the read-only attribute on my files back to read / write, even though I can't change it manually, and the program is running on my account.

"Update tags when file info changes" affects "when the tags are updated", it does not affect "how the tags are updated" (i.e. whether to write to sidecar or the media file).  If the option is OFF, you need to run "Update tags (from library)" manually to cause tag changes to be written to either sidecar or file.

Did you actually instruct MC to create sidecar files for all media types?

[logan9778]

Did you actually instruct MC to create sidecar files for all media types?

Lol, yeah, I did some MAJOR experimenting with your settings and NTFS permissions.  Nothing seems to work.

The problem is, MC 25 ALWAYS wants to write to the original file, no matter the sidecar settings.  I've tried different folder owners and NTFS settings to no avail.

I just wiped my computer about 2 weeks ago, and put on a fresh copy of windows.  So far, MC 25 and a backup program are the only programs installed on Windows right now.  So I doubt if any other program is interfering.

I've noticed that it first makes a new file, I guess with the new tags, and then deletes the original file.  This leaves a file with read / write permissions, when the original file had read-only attributes.  Then it also writes to the sidecar files, which is what I wanted.

I know it does this, because when I take off permissions under Authenticated Users for Write Attributes, Write Extended Attributes, Change Permissions, and Take Ownership, I am left with two of the same music files, the original with a (1) appended to the end of the file name, and the original read-only attribute still on it.  I don't have any .wma's, so I'm not sure how it would act on those.  I have .mp3's and .flac's.  And the covers are in .jpg .

I am using "Update Tags (From Library)" manually to update my tags.

The above is what it usually does, at some random times it has deleted all the original files.  It might have something to do with whatever User Function your using to write the files?

I'm looking for a setting that will not write to the original file, and only write to a sidecar file.  I'm just going to use these in case I lose my library file.  Then I can just suck it all back into a new library by the tags.  Which works well, since some video files and such don't take tags anyway.  I also use another computer that is hooked to my TV with a separate copy of MC 25 running, and connected to my network to get files (not running right now, so I know it's not that causing issues).  Then I can just sync it by "Upgrade Library from Tags".

You guys wrote a great program, best I've seen yet!  So far it's just this one irritating bug.

[Yaobing]

Lol, yeah, I did some MAJOR experimenting with your settings and NTFS permissions.  Nothing seems to work.

The reason I asked that question was that you are the first one to report such an issue and I tried with wma and mp3 audio files and could not reproduce.

I'm looking for a setting that will not write to the original file, and only write to a sidecar file.  I'm just going to use these in case I lose my library file.  Then I can just suck it all back into a new library by the tags.  Which works well, since some video files and such don't take tags anyway.  I also use another computer that is hooked to my TV with a separate copy of MC 25 running, and connected to my network to get files (not running right now, so I know it's not that causing issues).  Then I can just sync it by "Upgrade Library from Tags".

The settings for this are the ones that I mentioned in my first post.  On the second one you want to make sure you check all media types, not just Audio and Video as in the example I gave.

I will keep an eye on this issue.  Not being able to reproduce it makes it difficult to track.

[blgentry]

Logan: 

What is your objection to MC writing to your media files?  You've expressed that you want other MC instances to be able to read the tag updates you make.  If MC writes to your media files, then other MC instances will be able to read those.

You talked about backup and restore type cases using sidecars.  MC makes full library backups which can be used to restore all metadata.

So both of those cases are covered.

Is this just general paranoia about your file metadata getting set to weird values?  Or do you have some kind of specific thing going on that makes writing to your files a big problem?

I ask all of this because we've now spent several days discussing this somewhat esoteric feature, which isn't working for you, but the developers can't seem to reproduce.  At this point it seems worth considering why you would want to do this in the first place. 

Thanks,

Brian.

[logan9778]

@bigentry - Well, one, I don't trust programs with my files ( for obvious reasons ), and two, I can't use the library backup from one computer on my other computer because I am using network shares for the files.  i.e. media2 (network share) is not the same as E:\Mymusic\media 2.  The only thing I could do there to use the same library would be to use network share mapping to a drive letter, and then I would have to share the whole drive to get it right, and access the files.

@YaoBing - I just tried writing to the sidecars only on my other computer, which only has a copy of the lastest version of Windows 10, and your Media Center 25.0.95 for 64 bit windows.  Nothing else is on it.  Same thing happened.  Read only attributes on the files were ignored, and both original files and sidecars were written too.  So, yeah, it's a bug on your side.
Update on Tag Changes - unchecked.
Sidecar setting - Write to Sidecar files only.
Make sidecars for Audio and Video.

All files, .flac, .mp3, etc were written to.  Original file with read-only was deleted.  New file was made with read / write attribute and only showing Archive flag set.

EDIT: I'm trying this now on another folder of music, hoping it will work on it.  Maybe there is something wrong with the files themselves, since you say you can't reproduce it on your side.  They are somewhat old.

[wer]

...The only thing I could do there to use the same library would be to use network share mapping to a drive letter, and then I would have to share the whole drive to get it right, and access the files.

Not correct.  JRiver supports UNC paths, so you don't need to map a drive letter at all.  And if you do want to map a drive letter, you do not need to share an entire drive; you can share just a folder on a drive, so if all your media files are ultimately under one folder you can share just that folder instead of the whole drive, and mount that share as a drive letter.

[RoderickGI]

That'll be great if you can add that!  It'll save Roderick at least an hour a week.

Such a thoughtful fellow Wer. 

The only thing I could do there to use the same library would be to use network share mapping to a drive letter, and then I would have to share the whole drive to get it right, and access the files.

A network share doesn't have to share a whole drive. Share the folder you want, and then map it to a drive letter, say M: for music, and then map the same network share on the other PC to M: as well.

EDIT: Wer beat me on that one.

Make sidecars for Audio and Video.

As Yaobing said, if you are going to test against JPGs as well, select all media types in that setting.

All files, .flac, .mp3, etc were written to.  Original file with read-only was deleted.  New file was made with read / write attribute and only showing Archive flag set.

So what you are saying is that when you change tags for a FLAC file, and that FLAC file is read-only, then the FLAC file is copied to a new file of the same name, tags are written to it, and the original file is deleted. Hmmm. Possible. Maybe even MC might be doing it. I might have seen or read about something like that before. If you were just using the Read-only Attribute on the file, and not the file Permissions settings. If I would have to test what you are trying to do. But no time now.

[wer]

Such a thoughtful fellow Wer. 

Hey, I'm always looking out for you...        -Will

[logan9778]

Well, I just tested on some new folders/files in another directory.

Out of 9 folders, 3 actually came out like they were supposed to.  The original files were not touched, and only the sidecar files were changed.  I tried updating the tags in them multiple times with the same results.

I can't find any difference between the folders permission wise or in any other sense but the filenames.  They all look the same.  All consisted of .flac's and .jpg covers.  .jpg was not changed in any of the folders.  I even tried changing some of the filenames to resemble the ones in the folders that did right.  That didn't work.

"Update Tags when file info changes" is unchecked.
Mode set to "Save in Sidecar Files Only".
Make sidecar files for Audio;Video.
File permissions are default windows permissions for a folder.

I get the feeling the software is not even seeing the Read-Only attribute.

It has to be a bug in the software.  Hope you get some time to look at it soon.

Thanks.

[blgentry]

@bigentry - Well, one, I don't trust programs with my files ( for obvious reasons ),

What obvious reason do you have for not trusting MC to write tags with the values that you put in?  I understand if some whacky software has butchered your tags in the past.  If ITunes was one of them, that would make lots of sense because it does a lot of automated stuff that a lot of people like us don't expect and don't want.

But MC is a highly mature product with excellent tag handling.  I'm not sure what you're worried about other than the tag Boogie Man.  I don't mean to be so blunt, but your stance on this doesn't make a lot of sense if you intend to use MC long term.  It's good software.

and two, I can't use the library backup from one computer on my other computer because I am using network shares for the files.  i.e. media2 (network share) is not the same as E:\Mymusic\media 2. 

I've transferred library backups between computers with rather different drive paths.  It's all easy to fix using the Rename, Move, and Copy files tool.  RM&C has a mode which allows you to change the DATABASE ONLY.  So if you import a bunch of files from E:\Music and they are actually on \\mybigserver\data\music, you can easily do a replace operation to replace one with the other.  This is one of MC's most powerful and awesome features.  RM&C is a very cool part of MC.

Brian.

[logan9778]

Ahh, thanks!  I hadn't thought about the RM&C tool.

That, and as Wer was saying, I guess I could just change my local address in the database to network shares.  Just music and movies, so no huge speed needed.

Then I could share the database between my computers.

Maybe I'll trust the software one day, but yeah, you can see the bug right now.  However, you guys are are best Media Center I've found in years of looking. 

I've recommended your software to a lot of people.

[wer]

Brian and I and everyone else here trying to help you are just customers.  Yaobing is the only one that works for JRiver.  So it's not our software.