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Author Topic: Loudness causing clicks and occasional loud crack  (Read 2031 times)

milsdrewbulch

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Loudness causing clicks and occasional loud crack
« on: September 11, 2019, 04:21:44 am »

Since loudness was introduced some versions back I've been using it and it EQs quite well, but it seems to introduce a serious issue that could damage the speakers.  Firstly and not such an issue but nonetheless obvious and perhaps related is that on commencement of play with loudness activated there is a very soft click from the speakers.  Uncheck loudness and the click is no longer evident.  It's only at the commencement of play from a stopped state (not on track transitions) and I hear it on 4 different installs with different hardware.  All MC25 64 bit on Windows 10 Pro.  Turn loudness off and problem vanishes.

But the big issue with loudness activated and a Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 Gen 2 USB with the latest (and earlier) ASIO drivers installed there can be an occasional and almighty crack like a fire cracker from the left speaker some time (usually a minute or so) into play on any track.  Just once and then for the rest of the day not again. Again turn loudness off and the problem does not present itself.

I've adjusted buffers and pre-buffering to no avail.  Any ideas?
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JimH

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Re: Loudness causing clicks and occasional loud crack
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2019, 06:26:22 am »

Try using the 32 bit version of MC.  It's possible there is a driver problem.

Or try using WASAPI or DirectSound, just to test.  That would help isolate whether the driver is at fault.
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milsdrewbulch

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Re: Loudness causing clicks and occasional loud crack
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2019, 06:37:07 pm »

Thank you Jim. Trying the easiest first on the 18i20 system. WASAPI makes no difference to the little click on commencement of play with loudness activated. Just like with ASIO, deactivate loudness with WASAPI and the click doesn't occur.  I don't believe it's a driver issue as I hear the consistent click behaviour with the Windows default direct sound at my desktop PC's mini speakers with loudness activated too. I'm reluctant to try 32 bit version again as I seem to recall the same click some years ago when loudness was first introduced with the 32 bit version installed at the time.

I really do believe that there may be a glitch in the loudness implementation on MC since these things only occur with loudness activated and never occur when it is deactivated.  The little click is no big deal, but it might be a precursor or indicator to that occasional "fire cracker" that randomly occurs later in a track and can be quite frighening.

To assist in any debugging I will list a few of my non-standard MC settings:

SoX on
Upsampling all standard (FLAC) files to the same bitrate - either 88.2kHz (one system) or 176.4kHz (other systems)
Memory playback on (loading decoded files to memory) - just for network optimization - not "sound quality"
Numerous PEQ cut filters in DSP Studio's Parametric Equaliser to linearise FR
Volume levelling on

Thanks again.
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stewart_pk

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Re: Loudness causing clicks and occasional loud crack
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2019, 08:22:51 pm »

Try up-sampling everything to same bitrate in JRiver MC that you have set in the Focusrite software in an attempt to avoid any sample rate switch.
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milsdrewbulch

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Re: Loudness causing clicks and occasional loud crack
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2019, 10:09:15 pm »

It is and indeed it has to be because Focusrite hardware (in the system with the "fire cracker") cannot auto switch and MC will issue a "something went wrong with playback" warning otherwise. The two examples in my earlier post were set by "Set all to..." under Output Format to match that wanted by the hardware, but on different systems.  It works better this way anyway.  For example Switch tracks: Cross-fade (smooth)" works properly no matter the source rate of the tracks being switched.  The click I think you are alluding to is a different one that occurs with auto-switching hardware.

The problem that I am raising here is apparent ONLY with Loudness on.
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stewart_pk

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Re: Loudness causing clicks and occasional loud crack
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2019, 01:47:39 am »

The problem that I am raising here is apparent ONLY with Loudness on.

I have a Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 V2 and use Loudness all the time and I don't experience the issue you're referring to.
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milsdrewbulch

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Re: Loudness causing clicks and occasional loud crack
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2019, 01:58:13 am »

That's not really helpful.  I can reproduce the slight clicks on play start from idle even with the Windows default audio device (direct sound).  Try it with earbuds.  Turning Loudness off always clears it.
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milsdrewbulch

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Re: Loudness causing clicks and occasional loud crack
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2019, 03:07:39 am »

I have found a solution to the play from idle soft click with Loudness activated using the Windows Default Audio Device (Direct Sound) and earbuds.

Loudness affects the required buffer size!


Test to confirm as follows with Loudness on:

Slide the buffer slider to far right 0.05 seconds and all playback is accompanied by "static".
Slide it to the left to say 0.5 seconds, no static but a click sound happens (randomly) on play from idle.
Find a sweet spot (in my case 0.1 seconds) - no static and no click sound on play from idle.

The test is 99% repeatable, but not repeatable at all with Loudness off.

I'll try to repeat with Focusrite ASIO.

Back... No with Focusrite ASIO no buffer size can fix the issue.  Only solution is to turn Loudness off.
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JimH

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Re: Loudness causing clicks and occasional loud crack
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2019, 06:34:14 am »

Did you try the option for playing leading silence?
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JimH

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Re: Loudness causing clicks and occasional loud crack
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2019, 06:40:05 am »

Please read this, if you haven't:
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DAC_Settings
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milsdrewbulch

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Re: Loudness causing clicks and occasional loud crack
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2019, 05:47:19 pm »

Leading silence?  I guess you mean "Play silence at startup for hardware synchronisation:".  It's been on 1/4 second, but changing it to "None" doesn't seem to change anything.  I read the DAC settings.

Everything is working brilliantly until Loudness is activated.  My findings re Direct Sound are not 100%.  There is still the occasional click on play from idle after my buffer "optimisation".  It doesn't matter what settings are made, what hardware is used (from several USB DACs to the inbuilt Realtek Audio), Loudness caused intermittent clicks on play from idle and I suspect that the rare but annoying loud crack later during play - again only when Loudness is activated - is related to it.

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BigSpider

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Re: Loudness causing clicks and occasional loud crack
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2019, 06:34:57 pm »

I have been using loudness with no problems on my dacs, although not the one you are using I must confess. You should have Volume set to internal volume and if you haven't changed max volume settings then the loudness function will kick in as you decrease the internal volume below 100% - you can check if loudness is engaged in the drop down see the attached snippet. I apologise if you are already aware of this info.
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milsdrewbulch

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Re: Loudness causing clicks and occasional loud crack
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2019, 08:40:12 pm »

That's OK.  Loudness requires Internal Volume, so I wouldn't be here with this query if that weren't already set. I can see Loudness in the Audio Path when the volume slider is anywhere from 99% down. I have the systems calibrated to the reference level etc. etc. That's the basic stuff.

IMO the problem is not with any of my DACs as I observe consistent starting clicks with 4 different installs of MC on different hardware with different DACs although the loud "crack" is only a problem with one set-up that has an 18i20 Gen 2.  I have two 18i20 Gen 2s and they operate consistently on the system that issues a loud crack part way through play with Loudness activated.  Common factor there is a Lenovo PC that "could" be a factor, but I doubt it because it runs so well with Loudness off. 

The little click on playback start is of no concern of itself.  It is so minor that one might not even hear it. That's why I suggested earbuds to test it, but it is certainly there as a random artefact.  You might have to stop and start play a few times to get it.  It is quite audible on only one of my better active speaker set-ups, but on the PC at my desk it's innocuous unless I use earbuds and I suspect that others simply wouldn't be hearing it.  I have aged ears and can hear it easily.  It's similar in nature to the click in the files of PCM tracks converted with early software from SACD DSD extractions.  I only raise it because I thought it might be related to the more serious loud and frightening crack that can come later in a track with Loudness on - that's a rarity though and I wouldn't expect others to observe it because they won't have that particular combination of gear.

I suspect that it is something that MC is doing "glitchy" with its Loudness implementation because it seems to be happening internally. Again and I keep saying it - the issue is ONLY evident with Loudness activated - which seems logically to exclude my settings and hardware from fault.  With Loudness deactivated MC is extremely sophisticated and runs perfectly on all 4 of my systems.  I would say I'm a reasonably advanced MC user with numerous zones, zone switching rules, EQ tuned to + and - 0.7dB from quasi-anechoic near-field REW measurements using Parametric EQ in DSP Studio etc. etc.  I use JRemote on both Apple and Android to control the servers at fixed IP addresses etc etc.  BTW "App follows Zones" in Android JRemote is bugged as it only follows a zone switch from the server once and then get's stuck in that zone for good. The Apple version is fine though.

Anyway I am not here to debate it.  I have brought it to JRiver's attention and they can investigate it if they like.  I'm 99% certain it's a coding error somewhere.  End of rant.  I'll just turn it off and use my own less-sophisticated 2-dial analogue loudness compensator circuit instead and maybe look at the updates here from time to time to see if it has been addressed.
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stewart_pk

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Re: Loudness causing clicks and occasional loud crack
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2019, 09:01:45 pm »

That's not really helpful.  I can reproduce the slight clicks on play start from idle even with the Windows default audio device (direct sound).  Try it with earbuds.  Turning Loudness off always clears it.

I think it is helpful as it seems you're the only one reporting this issue.
I listen on my work computer too with LOUDNESS on all day and have never heard anything but music.
No clicks, pops, cracks etc so I think the problem is in your setup(s) somewhere and not JRiver MC code.
If the developers can't recreate a potential problem they will have a tough time trying to fix a potential problem.
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milsdrewbulch

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Re: Loudness causing clicks and occasional loud crack
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2019, 10:17:26 pm »

I just repeated the earbud test on a brand new Toshiba Laptop and could only hear the play start click after 10 or so attempts, but it was still there - somewhat quieter on the Toshiba - sometimes right channel but usually left.  As I said it is random.  More often/loud on some systems than others.  Turn Loudness off and 1000 attempts on any of my systems cannot generate the starting click.  The common factor in all of these tests is JRiver's Loudness.

The click is not an all-day play problem, but an initial click on start from idle.  And once again it is not an issue of itself but a possible indicator that there is a glitch in the code which might be causing the terrible "fire cracker sound" on one of my systems some minutes after play is started and that has never happened while loudness is off.
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stewart_pk

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Re: Loudness causing clicks and occasional loud crack
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2019, 01:42:54 am »

I've really tried to recreate the error as you've described and I think I might have stopped and started 30 odd times but it doesn't happen for me.
If it has I have not detected it.
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milsdrewbulch

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Re: Loudness causing clicks and occasional loud crack
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2019, 03:50:33 am »

Unless you share your set-up and settings, your good fortune or cloth ears are just frustrating. LOL  ;D

Seriously though thanks for your trouble, but I joined the forum to seek answers and leave a trail that others experiencing the same problem might find later, or that might prompt a debug - not to be doubted.  The issue is REAL, very obvious and easily repeatable.  Why would anyone invent such a thing? The only test I knowingly haven't tried is to roll back to a 32 bit build, but that seems quite drastic (especially considering the Windows Defender "Taming" that would have to be changed!) and it hasn't been explained why such should achieve anything anyway.  It would seem "unscientific" because clearly the drivers are working.
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JimH

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Re: Loudness causing clicks and occasional loud crack
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2019, 06:52:51 am »

Upsampling all standard (FLAC) files to the same bitrate - either 88.2kHz (one system) or 176.4kHz (other systems)
Memory playback on (loading decoded files to memory) - just for network optimization - not "sound quality"
Numerous PEQ cut filters in DSP Studio's Parametric Equaliser to linearise FR
Volume levelling on
Try without upsampling, all at 44.1/16.

Try without any DSP.

The single pop on one channel suggests it may be coming from the DAC.

Please run a benchmark under Help and paste the result here.
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Matt

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Re: Loudness causing clicks and occasional loud crack
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2019, 07:49:43 am »

I was able to reproduce a subtle tick starting playback again (after the first play).

It will be fixed in the next build.

Thanks for the help.
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milsdrewbulch

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Re: Loudness causing clicks and occasional loud crack
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2019, 06:41:44 pm »

Benchmark results.  This is on an older HP Z230 tower where I can reproduced the ticks at random - either first play or after play, stop and play again just with Default Audio (Direct Sound) - standard Realtek HD audio in the PC:

=== Running Benchmarks (please do not interrupt) ===

Running 'Math' benchmark...
    Single-threaded integer math... 3.736 seconds
    Single-threaded floating point math... 2.303 seconds
    Multi-threaded integer math... 1.163 seconds
    Multi-threaded mixed math... 0.825 seconds
Score: 2367

Running 'Image' benchmark...
    Image creation / destruction... 0.345 seconds
    Flood filling... 0.310 seconds
    Direct copying... 0.475 seconds
    Small renders... 0.938 seconds
    Bilinear rendering... 0.682 seconds
    Bicubic rendering... 0.412 seconds
Score: 6959

Running 'Database' benchmark...
    Create database... 0.131 seconds
    Populate database... 0.738 seconds
    Save database... 0.125 seconds
    Reload database... 0.083 seconds
    Search database... 1.147 seconds
    Sort database... 1.083 seconds
    Group database... 0.819 seconds
Score: 5212

JRMark (version 25.0.98 64 bit): 4846

If it's a DAC issue then its on every DAC in my house.

Thank you Matt - especially for listening and believing!
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Matt

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Re: Loudness causing clicks and occasional loud crack
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2019, 07:07:50 pm »

If it's just a tick as playback starts, I'm almost sure it will be fixed next build.  If it ticks in the middle of playback, maybe you could try increasing your buffer settings?  Thanks.
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milsdrewbulch

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Re: Loudness causing clicks and occasional loud crack
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2019, 07:27:40 pm »

Thank you Matt.  The tick is never mid-play.  Only at start.  The big mid-play "crack" may be unrelated - just I never got it with loudness off. :)

BTW (forgot - sorry): upsampling or not doesn't seem to affect it.  DSP settings don't seem to affect it.

Addendum:

I may have found the cause of the loud crack part way through a track and it could be a result of user-stupidity on my part.  It has to do with the application of a very small PEQ boost filter (just 1dB) at a particular frequency (preceded by a precautionary overall equivalent attenuation) in DSP Studio.  I'll start another thread to help others if further testing over time confirms this now that I have applied new EQ settings devoid of any boost filter.  It could be that such a mild boost accompanied by Loudness caused some kind of digital clipping.
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milsdrewbulch

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Re: Loudness causing clicks and occasional loud crack
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2019, 07:06:34 pm »

Thanks again Matt.  I just installed Build 101 and having done around 20 minutes of stop-play-stop-play testing it seems you have nailed it.  The only play start clicks that I hear now are not Loudness-related (they happen with Loudness off too), but are clicks known to be present in multi-channel FLAC files converted some time ago from SACD rips.
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Matt

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Re: Loudness causing clicks and occasional loud crack
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2019, 07:31:16 pm »

Good news.  Thanks so much.
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