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[stewart_pk]

If I play the TOOL Fear Inoculum CD vs the HD Tracks 24/96 version the latter is played back louder.
I presume this is because of the three extra interlude tracks on the latter.

I propose the development of a way to exclude the audio analysis of some tracks within an album.
In this example I would want to exclude the three interlude tracks of the HD Tracks 24/96 version.

[yukibarr]

How would the volume levelling manage to distinguish - unless you are proposing to do this manually - between the tracks that one would want to include or exclude

[AlanDistro]

While we're making Volume Leveling requests, I would like to once again ask that Volume Leveling be set on a Disc basis, not Album basis, as many MANY reissues have a lot of volume differences between the main album and the discs of bonus tracks. Any box set where Disc 1 is the main album and Disc 2 is a bonus live concert usually suffer from large volume differences, same goes for bonus discs that are full of demos or rehearsals/outtakes.

[BigSpider]

If you append the disc number to the album name then they will be treated as individual discs.

I thought that audio analysis of silent tracks causing problems with volume levelling was dealt with by Matt in version 39 or 40.

[stewart_pk]

How would the volume levelling manage to distinguish - unless you are proposing to do this manually - between the tracks that one would want to include or exclude

I propose that we get to decide (override by turning it off per track) manually.
Or maybe there could be a database in the cloud. 

[DJLegba]

If I play the TOOL Fear Inoculum CD vs the HD Tracks 24/96 version the latter is played back louder.
I presume this is because of the three extra interlude tracks on the latter.

I propose the development of a way to exclude the audio analysis of some tracks within an album.
In this example I would want to exclude the three interlude tracks of the HD Tracks 24/96 version.

How do the DR values compare? Perhaps the 24/96 download is actually more compressed than the CD. In my (limited) experience with volume leveling, compressed albums still sound louder (which is the goal of compression in the first place).

[stewart_pk]

How do the DR values compare? Perhaps the 24/96 download is actually more compressed than the CD. In my (limited) experience with volume leveling, compressed albums still sound louder (which is the goal of compression in the first place).

Absoultely not. The same compression has been applied to all versions. It's just that the CD lacks three tracks that download versions have.

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=TOOL&album=Fear+Inoculum

[blgentry]

So the album with the 3 bonus tracks plays with the volume adjustment turned down more.  Which means that the 3 bonus tracks have a higher average loudness than the rest of the album.  MC is doing it's job to keep the volume relatively constant across tracks and keep the target at the target value.

You're proposing to override that and make the target loudness higher by ignoring those tracks.  So they would play loud enough to be above the target value.  Do you want that?  For those bonus tracks to play louder than the target?  Or do you not want to play those tracks? 

If you don't want to play them, or you think they aren't part of the album proper, then you might just re-tag them with an album name that's something like "Inoculum CD Bonus Tracks".  That way they are a separate entity.  They won't play with the main album and they won't be part of the average loudness calculation for the album.

Brian.

[stewart_pk]

So the album with the 3 bonus tracks plays with the volume adjustment turned down more.  Which means that the 3 bonus tracks have a higher average loudness than the rest of the album.

No, that's not correct.
The three extra tracks on the download version(s) have lower average loudness than the rest of the album.
This means they ends up playing louder than the CD.
MC is doing what it's programmed to do at the moment, yes.

You're proposing to override that and make the target loudness higher by ignoring those tracks.  So they would play loud enough to be above the target value.  Do you want that?  For those bonus tracks to play louder than the target?  Or do you not want to play those tracks? 

I want MC to ignore the 3 bonus tracks so the album plays at the same level as the CD.
I understand some manual intervention would be required.
I would need to mark those 3 tracks to be ignored regarding Volumn Leveling when playing the album.

If you don't want to play them, or you think they aren't part of the album proper, then you might just re-tag them with an album name that's something like "Inoculum CD Bonus Tracks".  That way they are a separate entity.  They won't play with the main album and they won't be part of the average loudness calculation for the album.

I do want to play them and they are part of the album proper.
The reason they are not on the CD is that a single CD is not large enough to store them.
So the CD is not the album proper.
TOOL have offered them as a separate MP3 download with a download code.
They are not bonus tracks as they are scattered throughout the album; they are not the last 3 tracks on the album.

But regardless, I think the digital download version(s) of TOOL - Fear Inoculum play too loud because of the 3 extra tracks.
They don't match up well with other music that has been mastered to a similar loudness level e.g. the CD version of TOOL - Fear Inoculum.
And further to this because they're playing too loud that has an affect on the JRiver MC LOUDNESS compensation.
So not only do the download versions of TOOL - Fear Inoculum play louder than the CD version they also play with more JRiver MC LOUDNESS applied. 

[mattkhan]

It seems like a pretty niche requirement, is it the only such album with this issue? the simplest solution would be to adjust the gain in the tracks themselves manually and then re analyse the album.

[JimH]

You could probably use zones and set one without volume leveling.  Ctrl-T toggles between your zones.  The wiki has more information.

[wer]

Stewart, I think you have four options:

1. Use per file DSP to use different DSP settings for the files during playback, either disabling volume leveling or making a volume adjustment.  I would not recommend this because the was MC still has per file DSP implemented, namely without a default, is clunky and makes it a pain to use.

2. Use Zoneswitch and some tag based rule to send some files to a different zone and thus with different DSP, same as above. This trades the problems of per file DSP for the need to maintain a second zone.

3. Trick volume leveling.  You can modify the [Volume Level (R128)] tag, and that will change the volume adjustment MC applies at playback.  It works.  I've done it.

4. Modify the files.  I think you said they were mp3.  Convert them to flac (the conversion will be lossless) and during the conversion apply a DSP volume adjustment.  Technically applying the volume adjustment will not be lossless, but practically it will be and here's why: the volume adjustment just throws away bits, and on a 24bit track you're already not using all the bits; if you were it would deafen you.  So you can shift by a certain amount of headroom and lose nothing.

Good luck...

-Will

[fitbrit]

You could probably use zones and set one without volume leveling.  Ctrl-T toggles between your zones.  The wiki has more information.

Zone switch is just so powerful. Invaluable feature for me.

[stewart_pk]

It seems like a pretty niche requirement, is it the only such album with this issue?

Well JRiver MC is a pretty niche product.  Yes it is the only album I have a problem with at the moment but I could see this as being a problem in the future. I was the guy who started the TOOL - Undertow thread to get all those silent tracks at the end automatically ignored.

[stewart_pk]

You could probably use zones and set one without volume leveling.  Ctrl-T toggles between your zones.  The wiki has more information.

Incredibly clunky, especially as I play this with my HTPC controlling it with a universal remote rather than a keyboard.

[stewart_pk]

3. Trick volume leveling.  You can modify the [Volume Level (R128)] tag, and that will change the volume adjustment MC applies at playback.  It works.  I've done it.

4. Modify the files.  I think you said they were mp3.  Convert them to flac (the conversion will be lossless) and during the conversion apply a DSP volume adjustment.  Technically applying the volume adjustment will not be lossless, but practically it will be and here's why: the volume adjustment just throws away bits, and on a 24bit track you're already not using all the bits; if you were it would deafen you.  So you can shift by a certain amount of headroom and lose nothing.

3. This is the least bad option I read so far. I'd have to somehow work out what value(s) to apply. I would rather an option developed to completely ignore files that I want to ignore but I haven't seen an enthusiastic embrace of the idea.

4. The files are actually FLAC 24/96 from HD Tracks.

Thanks for the suggestions.

[fitbrit]

Incredibly clunky, especially as I play this with my HTPC controlling it with a universal remote rather than a keyboard.

Create a zone that has the properties you want to play this album to your liking. For the same of illustration, call it the TOOL zone
Then use Zone Switch, to specify under which conditions that zone becomes the active one. For example, it could be that if the [Album] tag equals any one of the affected album titles, switch over to the TOOL zone. Voila. It will be an automatic switch if you select that album to be played. No need to step away from your universal remote, except to "program" Zone Switch.

[wer]

4. The files are actually FLAC 24/96 from HD Tracks.

That's fine, option 4 still holds.  You can convert from FLAC to FLAC and apply the DSP during conversion.  The virtue of this approach is that it's permanent and doesn't rely on a tag or external algorithm, as the volume will be physically adjusted in the files.

In terms of sound quality, options 3 and 4 are bit-equivalent. 4 just hardcodes exactly what 3 would do on the fly, assuming you get the adjustment correct.

[stewart_pk]

Create a zone that has the properties you want to play this album to your liking. For the same of illustration, call it the TOOL zone
Then use Zone Switch, to specify under which conditions that zone becomes the active one. For example, it could be that if the [Album] tag equals any one of the affected album titles, switch over to the TOOL zone. Voila. It will be an automatic switch if you select that album to be played. No need to step away from your universal remote, except to "program" Zone Switch.

OK that's fine, but it still won't be volume leveled. This is a step back IMO not forward.
To re-iterate MC already has code to ignore files which would have exceptionally large DR values - see the TOOL Undertow thread.
I'm still hoping to build on that enhancement that some tracks on some albums are corner cases and should be ignored during the playback of the album.
Then albums like TOOL - Fear Inoculum on CD and Download would play at very precisily the same level. Like They Should.

[DJLegba]

I want MC to ignore the 3 bonus tracks so the album plays at the same level as the CD.
I understand some manual intervention would be required.
I would need to mark those 3 tracks to be ignored regarding Volumn Leveling when playing the album.

As per Brian's suggestion, manually mark those three tracks as a separate album (by adding _pk to the album title, for example) when performing analysis. After analyzing both the "album minus three" and the "three separate", make them part of the entire album again (by removing _pk from the album title). Analysis won't be redone, and you'll have achieved your goal.

[stewart_pk]

As per Brian's suggestion, manually mark those three tracks as a separate album (by adding _pk to the album title, for example) when performing analysis. After analyzing both the "album minus three" and the "three separate", make them part of the entire album again (by removing _pk from the album title). Analysis won't be redone, and you'll have achieved your goal.

I don't see how this would work at all.

Option 3 would require me to manually override the DR/Loudness values.
But override with what?
The values of track 1 might work but I still doubt it would make the Download version(s) match up with the CD perfectly.

[stewart_pk]

Regardless of the CD version I think the Download version(s) playback too loud with Volume Levelling because of the corner case tracks.
Track 10 especially with a DR rating of 15 is much higher than all of the other tracks on the album with an average of about 8.
I think if MC was made to ignore the odd track that has a DR value much higher than the rest of the album (average) then everyone's music collection would playback at a more appropriate volume; Volume Leveling would be improved.

[ferday]

are you aware that this is a standard? (EBU R128)

It's easy to understand that this affects you personally, but the fact that you've underlined everyone is a good sign it's time for you to drop this.  I'm not the only one that isn't interested in being spoken for.

The EBU is a public organisation https://www.ebu.ch/home

[pschelbert]

EBU R128 works fine in JRiver.

Switch off Volume Leveling, switch on R128.

R128 keeps volume differences in an album and does psychoacoustic volume overall. Tracks with huge level differences sound same loud.
If you need to measure, do it with JRiver R128 gain. You can then adjust individual files if you need to.according the measured values.

[stewart_pk]

It's easy to understand that this affects you personally, but the fact that you've underlined everyone is a good sign it's time for you to drop this.  I'm not the only one that isn't interested in being spoken for.

You sound like you're having a whinge; I'm not interested in hearing it.
I've put my case forward; what happens now then so be it.

[RoderickGI]

Switch off Volume Leveling, switch on R128.

Sorry for the interruption, but this comment confuses me.

Audio Analysis in MC sets all the various audio measurement in tags. But I thought that didn't do anything unless Volume Leveling was turned on.

How do you turn off Volume Leveling, and switch on R128?

[stewart_pk]

Sorry for the interruption, but this comment confuses me.

Audio Analysis in MC sets all the various audio measurement in tags. But I thought that didn't do anything unless Volume Leveling was turned on.

How do you turn off Volume Leveling, and switch on R128?

Yep, I'm confused about this one too.

[pschelbert]

sorry I mixed up: adaptive volume and volume leveling

volume leveling on: uses R128 gain
volume leveling off: no gain adjust.

anyway: keep"Adapive volume" off

See also here:
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Volume_Leveling

and here:
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Adaptive_Volume

The audio analyssis tags are calculated and shown. However only used when you switch R128 on (volume leveling)

You can try it if you have tow times the same track.
One you edit to have lets say a 20dB lower volume. If you have "volume leveling off" then you hear a significant vlume difference.
If you o to "volume levleing on" then both have have the same volume.
You see in JRiver audio analysis a 20dB gain difference.