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[RedJ]

[UPDATE] Resolution and additional questions follow original post

I am now repeatedly experiencing behavior from the rename/move/copy tool that I have never seen before. I am attempting to use a relative perfunctory rename and move tracks based on their album, artist, and name. In the move preview, you can see that everything seems like one would expect:


But when the operation is completed, most of the files are not in the folder shown in the preview. After some hunting, I find ALL of the tracks have been moved to a single folder for the first listed track that was moved.

This behavior persists after restart of MC and Windows. Not sure what could be going on here.

[UPDATE] I have discovered the culprit here was the very first option on the move dialog: "Move all non-imported files in folder with selected media files". I have several points of confusion about the way this option worked: 1) Why did the preview show the expected folders but not actually perform the move as advertised? 2) Why were all these tracks non-imported. I dragged them from Explorer into Media Center to get them into their pre-move folder. I would expect that would have imported them. Also, the tracks' origin and destination folders are part of a watched auto-import folder which should have additionally imported these tracks over the many hours/day they have been there. 3) Has the option to move non-imported files into a single folder always been in MC? I've never run across something like this before in all the times I've performed this operation.

[RedJ]

Just ran a manual import of all the folders that were modified as a result of this move operation (and actually quite a few more just to be sure). I had 0 new files out of over 2500 scanned. I am pretty sure all the files that were being placed in the same folder were indeed already imported to the library.

[RoderickGI]

You have to be careful using the "Move all non-imported files in folder with selected media files" setting. Read this post and the thread it is in: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,118352.msg819856.html#msg819856

Question: Specifically, which version of MC are you running? MC25.0.114?

It does look like dragging files into MC is handling importation a little differently. I never drag and drop, but I just did a test to see what happened, and the files were imported correctly. I dragged from Windows Explorer into the main Album View in MC Standard View. How and where from and to, specifically, did you Drag & Drop? Did you check a standard View such as the Album View to see if the files were imported before moving them?

1) Why did the preview show the expected folders but not actually perform the move as advertised?

Dunno. It should have worked. You weren't, by any chance, using the "Drives & Devices > Explorer" Views to Drag & Drop were you? That View imports into a special database, and not the main database, and so is handled differently. If you dragged into the MC Explorer View, then the files weren't actually imported into MC. They were just temporarily imported into a side database for use in that View only. If you did use that method and unticked the "Show only files in library" option, the files you "added" using Drag & Drop would disappear.

2) Why were all these tracks non-imported. I dragged them from Explorer into Media Center to get them into their pre-move folder. I would expect that would have imported them. Also, the tracks' origin and destination folders are part of a watched auto-import folder which should have additionally imported these tracks over the many hours/day they have been there.

As above, if you dragged the files into the "Drives & Devices > Explorer" View then they don't actually get imported into the Main MC database. If Pre-move (X:\Music) folder is actually in the Auto Import configuration, then I would expect them to be imported. But if they were already in the special side database used for the "Drives & Devices > Explorer" View, maybe MC doesn't import them. I wondered if maybe it would see that as a duplicate importation. So I did a test for that, and files visible in the "Drives & Devices > Explorer" View that hadn't been imported, when dragged to a location that is watched by Auto Import using the MC Explorer View, were imported correctly. So that implies your Auto Import isn't working correctly.

Question: Did you check that the files had been imported using a normal View before trying to do the move?
Question: What View were you using when you selected the files to move them? The "Drives & Devices > Explorer" View?

3) Has the option to move non-imported files into a single folder always been in MC? I've never run across something like this before in all the times I've performed this operation.

Yes, but the functionality was changed, as per the thread I linked to above, to improve what it does, and clarify the meaning of the setting.


While turning off that setting in the RM&CF function fixes your issue, it is sometimes a good thing to use. Not so much when you have placed a whole lot of files from different Albums into one directory, and then move them out to their specific directories. But certainly useful when moving single Albums that reside in their own directory, and have additional files next to them that you want to move.

So it would be good if you could answer the questions above. Then if the problem was repeatable, and it was appropriate, JRiver might fix it.

[lepa]

There is a one bug with non-imported files which has been there now some time. MC doesn't rename those files but just copies them to pointed folder. Preview is showing destination as renamed. I have reported step by step instructions to duplicate this couple of times.

[RedJ]

Question: Specifically, which version of MC are you running? MC25.0.114?

Yes, this is the version I am using.

You weren't, by any chance, using the "Drives & Devices > Explorer" Views to Drag & Drop were you?

Actually, I was using this view. It seems intuitive to me that, if I want to move files that are not currently in the database, it would make sense to drag them into the MC interface in order to have MC instantly know their location. It makes zero sense to me, as an end user, that it wouldn't work that way.

So that implies your Auto Import isn't working correctly.

I agree, it does imply that Auto-Import isn't working right for me, yet Auto-Import has worked as expected up to now. Here are the settings for the Music folder:


None of the files in question were previously in my library.

Then if the problem was repeatable, and it was appropriate, JRiver might fix it.

I am not sure if this behavior is due to a logic defect or is somehow working as intended for a purpose that I can't discern. I certainly would like the option to have any file dragged into the MC interface be automatically imported, even if the Drives and Devices view. I would not have any alternative reason to perform file operations through MC.

[RoderickGI]

By dragging to the "Drives & Devices > Explorer" View, you are trying to import files into MC in the one area where MC deliberately doesn't import files. If MC did import files it found using the "Drives & Devices > Explorer" View, or which were dragged in there, users could quite possibly end up importing everything on their computer. That would be bad, and unexpected.

The solution is to just open one tab in an audio View, and Drag & Drop files in there. Then on another tab have the "Drives & Devices > Explorer" View open and move them around as you wish.

BTW you didn't answer this question:

Question: Did you check that the files had been imported using a normal View before trying to do the move?

You really should use a normal View, not the "Drives & Devices > Explorer" View, to check if files have actually been imported. Or check the "Recently Imported" Smartlist, if you added them recently. Or do this in the "Drives & Devices > Explorer" View:

If you did use that method and unticked the "Show only files in library" option, the files you "added" using Drag & Drop would disappear.

You forgot to add the settings for the Music folder, which I assume were an image. Auto Import should import an files moved to a watched folder, so that part of your process should have worked. It did for me.

[RoderickGI]

There is a one bug with non-imported files which has been there now some time. MC doesn't rename those files but just copies them to pointed folder. Preview is showing destination as renamed. I have reported step by step instructions to duplicate this couple of times.

Yep, I confirmed that. Same result. The original files were not imported, and were being viewed in the "Drives & Devices > Explorer" View.

Using RM&CF the files are moved, directories are renamed or created with new names, but the files themselves weren't renamed, even though the preview did show them renamed. See attached image JRiver.

I agree that the file renaming should have worked, even from the "Drives & Devices > Explorer" View, even though the files aren't imported, and are not being managed by MC. So that is a functional deficiency. It could have been done deliberately to avoid renaming system files or something. But if the files are moved using the RM&CF function, then I can't see why they wouldn't be renamed.


Interestingly, if the files have been imported, RM&CF will rename the files correctly, even from the "Drives & Devices > Explorer" View.

[Matt]

I'm not sure I can reproduce this.

I copied an APE file to C:\Temporary\Rename.

Then I found the file with Explorer in Media Center.

After that I picked the file and did a rename, and the new name went through fine.

Any tips to reproduce?  Thanks.

[RoderickGI]

I did basically the same you did, and while the files were moved, they weren't renamed.

I copied a whole Album directory to a new directory at F:\AAA, so the path was F:\AAA\The Hard Road\files.flac
I created a new directory at F:\BBB
Using the "Drives & Devices > Explorer" View, I selected all the files in the Album.
Then I used F6, changed the Base Path to F:\BBB, with directory and filename rules so that both would change, selected all flac files, checked the Preview which looked fine, and executed the move.

I tried it with and without directory name changes, testing both or just file name changes. The file name never got changed.


HOWEVER:
I just restarted MC after some time away from it and repeated the test with just one file name change, and it worked.

I used Ctrl+Z to undo the changes in MC.

When I pressed F6 to open RM&CF this time, the Directories checkbox was not ticked, as I had left it that way.
Again I repeated the test with just one file, a new Base Path and directories rule, and a file name change. It worked.

Again, I repeated the test with three files, a new Base Path and directories rule, and a file name change. It worked.

The only other difference from my first tests was that I had turned off the setting "Move all non-imported files in folder with selected media files". So I checked that box again.
I ran the last test again, with three files, a new Base Path and directories rule, and a file name change. This time it failed, with all files in the directory being moved, but none of them renamed. I expected all to be moved and the selected three files to be renamed. It even moved all files when I responded "No" to the confirmation box asking if I wanted to save changes to the three files.

Interestingly, in this last failed test, in the "Drives & Devices > Explorer" View, the three selected files were shown as moved and renamed, while all the additional files were left untouched, in the source directory. However, when I refreshed that view the display was consistent with what I was seeing in Windows Explorer. In previous tests the display in the "Drives & Devices > Explorer" View change as soon as OK was clicked in the RM&CF function, even before I clicked "yes" on the confirmation box. In previous tests when I clicked "No' on the confirmation box no files were moved and the display in the "Drives & Devices > Explorer" View was returned to its original state immediately.

Also interestingly, I couldn't undo the changes with a Ctrl+Z. Ctrl+Z just changed the display in the "Drives & Devices > Explorer" View, but did not move any files back.

So the problem occurs when the "Move all non-imported files in folder with selected media files" setting is checked, and involves update of the "Drives & Devices > Explorer" View, the Undo capability, as well as renaming the files.

[blgentry]

There are 3 somewhat related aspects of MC that cause a huge number of problem reports:

Windows Explorer Integration
Drag and Drop of anything into MC
Drives and Devices

All three bypass MC's normal operating paradigms.  For whatever reason they are the source of many many points of confusion, actual bugs, and lots of inconsistent "weird" behavior.  If I was advising a new MC user, I would loudly and strongly tell them to stay away from all 3 of these areas.

I understand that lots of people like these features and use them frequently.  I'm saying that if you don't need to use these features, that your MC experience will be more consistent and more trouble free.

Brian.

[RoderickGI]

That is pretty much true Brian.

I rarely use Windows Explorer Integration, except when testing what other people are doing! Although I do double click on media files to play them in MC pretty often, and that works fine. I just don't use the menus in Explorer much, though they seem to work for me.

I never use Drag & Drop for my daily activities, except when building Playlists, which works. Even then, I mostly use the right-click menus in MC. Never for importing, except when testing what other people are doing!

I do use Drive & Devices because I have to use it for Handheld Sync. I have started using the MC Explorer capability to show all files, or only imported files, more recently. A user really needs to understand how the MC Explorer works to use it reliably. It isn't obvious what it is doing unless you know.

There are alternatives in MC to everything except Handheld Sync. But I wouldn't want to see the other functions removed, just "fixed". 

[JimH]

I can't agree on that, Brian. 

[RedJ]

BTW you didn't answer this question:
You really should use a normal View, not the "Drives & Devices > Explorer" View, to check if files have actually been imported. Or check the "Recently Imported" Smartlist, if you added them recently. Or do this in the "Drives & Devices > Explorer" View:

I didn't answer because I thought it was mute once it was established that I shouldn't expect Drives and Devices to import my tracks. I wrestled with this for awhile and did at various points locate files via locate on disk inside Media Center, which I also would have assumed was showing imported files but, since is also a D&D view, apparently does not.

You forgot to add the settings for the Music folder, which I assume were an image. Auto Import should import an files moved to a watched folder, so that part of your process should have worked. It did for me.

I don't understand. My screenshot is for the Music folder auto-import settings. If you mean you want to see the specific file types I import, the Music folder is (and has been for many years) to import audio files:

There are 3 somewhat related aspects of MC that cause a huge number of problem reports:

Windows Explorer Integration
Drag and Drop of anything into MC
Drives and Devices

All three bypass MC's normal operating paradigms.  For whatever reason they are the source of many many points of confusion, actual bugs, and lots of inconsistent "weird" behavior.
Brian.

While I may not be the most super-advanced MC user, believe it or not, I've been using this product since Media Jukebox 5 or so and I never realized this was how the product behaves in Drives and Devices, so I can definitely see why the inconsistency in behavior would tend to be confusing for new users. I'm sure you could do some real damage in Drives & Devices, but I don't know why that couldn't be mitigated by warnings for operations on large numbers of files and give the option to turn on importing of files are dragged to MC in that mode. For now, I guess it's a lesson learned through experience and, somehow I've avoided that experience for well over a decade of using MC.

[RoderickGI]

I don't understand. My screenshot is for the Music folder auto-import settings.

You forgot to actually add the screenshot to that specific post. I just wanted to see the first auto Import dialogue showing which folders you import. Particularly the Pre and Post-move folders.

It is also a moot point now. As per the edit on your initial post, the "Move all non-imported files in folder with selected media files" setting is the problem, as it has a bug or two. You probably didn't have that newish setting ticked previously, and that is why it always worked fine. Plus its functionality was changed recently.

All your other points are valid. You can do a lot of damage with the MC Explorer function.

Enjoy the music! 

[lepa]

Rename bug which I reported occurs if file is not imported AND it is not in MC's temporary database. If I drag same files again to MC's playing now and do another RMC for these then MC will also rename the files instead just replacing them. I suspect that is because these files are noe known to MC i.e. they exist in some MC temp table.

[Matt]

I'll make this change to a coming MC26:
Changed: The option to "Move all non-imported files in folder with selected media files" only runs if the file is imported (so it won't engage on files from the Explorer view, etc.).

Let me know if there's anything else we should do.  Thanks.

[RedJ]

I'll make this change to a coming MC26:
Changed: The option to "Move all non-imported files in folder with selected media files" only runs if the file is imported (so it won't engage on files from the Explorer view, etc.).

Let me know if there's anything else we should do.  Thanks.

I would recommend, assuming it's not part of the above change, to also make sure the file copy/move/rename preview results accurately reflect the actual destination of the operation. The fact that the preview showed the (my) expected destination folder and name, but all files ended up in a different folder, was the source of a lot of my initial confusion.

[RoderickGI]

The fact that the preview showed the (my) expected destination folder and name, but all files ended up in a different folder, was the source of a lot of my initial confusion.

The files only ended up in a different folder because the "Move all non-imported files in folder with selected media files" was ticked, and all files in the folder were moved when the first file was moved. So they were moved to the target folder for the first file.

I'll make this change to a coming MC26:
Changed: The option to "Move all non-imported files in folder with selected media files" only runs if the file is imported (so it won't engage on files from the Explorer view, etc.).

Let me know if there's anything else we should do.  Thanks.

I thought about asking for it to work the same way as in Views. But it can't, because the files aren't imported. Even if you made it do what it does in Views, by treating files that are in the temporary database the same way as files that have been imported, it still won't work the way it does in Views, because all files in a folder are in the temporary database, so ancillary files would be treated as imported files.

I also agree with RedJ that what is shown in the Preview is what should happen, but with this setting disabled, that should be the case.

So I guess disabling the function in MC Explorer is best. Please force an untick of the option, and/or make it visually obvious, so a user sees the change.

EDIT:
Actually, I've thought about it some more. It sounds like you intend to disengage the function on a file by file basis. What would happen if you had a mix of imported and non-imported files selected in the MC Explorer? So when the first imported file is processed, it and all non-imported files in the folder would be moved, which may include other media files. Unusual, yes, but could happen.

Maybe a slight change to the function, and hence just a change to the description:

Changed: In the MC Explorer, the option to "Move all non-imported files in folder with selected media files" is disabled.

This would still work, because if a user is displaying non-imported files they could just select them to be moved at the same time as the imported files... except then they would be renamed as per the RM&CF function. That might be bad.

I can't think of a solution that is all around good. I think disabling the function in the MC Explorer is best, rather than applying it on a file by file basis.

[lepa]

I should also add that this has been working before. My use case has been that i have lossless files + art files in the playing now. I'll tag those files convert to lossy for daily usage and RMC these playing now files (lossless +art - these are not imported) to my archive disk. I would prefer that I could still do that so that I can move and rename non-imported files still/again.

This got broken couple of months ago.