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[DeaneG]

I realize this is an early question, as ATSC 3.0 TV broadcasts are just starting in selected US markets, but was wondering if you folks have started to think about support for it yet. I just "bought" Silicondust's new ATSC3.0 almost-quad tuner on kickstarter.

Silicondust claims that to the first order, it's a drop in replacement for their ATSC 1.0 tuners, except for the requirement for an HEVC/h.265 decoder.

[tzr916]

Ordered one from kickstarter as well. HEVC shouldn't be a problem, just playing around with some sample files, they all play fine on my laptop (nvidia MX250) with MC and ZoomPlayer both using madvr. They say files will be TS format, same as current tuners.

[DeaneG]

I'm wondering how a Media Center configuration would work when some tuners in the pool can only receive ATSC 1, but other tuners in the pool can receive both ATSC 1 and ATSC3.

[tzr916]

I think all four tuners can do ATSC 1, only two of the four can do ATSC 3. But, you're right, if NBC is ATSC 3, MC will have to force tuning only to tuner 1 or 2. How's that gonna work?

[Yaobing]

I will have to add some manual configuration to flag ATSC3 tuners.  We currently do this for DVB2.

[DeaneG]

I will have to add some manual configuration to flag ATSC3 tuners.  We currently do this for DVB2.

Thank you.

[DeaneG]

I just got shipment tracking info for Silicondust's ATSC3.0 tuner from their kickstarter. Unfortunately there are no ATSC3 broadcasts yet in my area (SF bay California), due to work delays from COVID.

[tzr916]

Mine's all hooked up and running in MC. Kinda odd how the device streams the entire 19Mb station (all subchannels) to the PC regardless of which subchannel is being viewed/recorded in MC. So if I were to record and/or watch all four tuners, roughly 80Mbps of network traffic are going into the PC, but a significantly lower number is actually being used by MC / written to disc. This gets even more important, when watching channels from this device on a MC Client!

When using the Win10 SiliconDust HDHR App, the device only sends the subchannel's stream to the PC, not the entire 19Mbps. Results in a lot less network traffic.

https://forum.silicondust.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=133&t=74309&p=364234#p364234

[KeeterJ]

I generally use Hauppauge PCIe cards for TV tuners for MC, but I now have 3 SiliconDust HDHomeRun tuners on my network - one of which is the new 4K ATSC3 model.  It works, but they are still releasing firmware tweaks for the ATSC3 stuff. 

The big problem is that the audio in ATSC3 is typically Dolby AC-4 (not the older AC-3).  So far there do not seem to be any freely available AC-4 codecs for Windows, unless a development company is working with Dolby.  Hopefully that will change when 3rd-party organizations figure out how to write one.  Until then, I'm not sure what JR can do to provide a complete ATSC3 solution for MC.

For me, ATSC3 is currently an experiment.  I have to use the HDHomeRun Windows app if I want to watch an ATSC3 channel.  I guess they worked with Dolby to use an embedded AC-4 codec.  It works, but it's certainly not a full-featured MC product like we all want.

I'm near Portland, Oregon, which has several online ATSC3 stations.  They are not yet ready with 4K broadcasts, but I am eagerly waiting.

[tzr916]

Northern California channels are up, ATSC 3.0 working in SiliconDust App but NOT in JRiver MC. Just did a channel scan and MC finds the ATSC 1.0 channels but none of the ATSC 3.0 channels are found.

[DeaneG]

Northern California channels are up...

In the San Francisco bay area? Which stations?

[tzr916]

The Sacramento ATSC 3.0 stations in the Tuner Lineup page are the ones that say HEVC:

[curiousMonkey]

Northern California channels are up, ATSC 3.0 working in SiliconDust App but NOT in JRiver MC. Just did a channel scan and MC finds the ATSC 1.0 channels but none of the ATSC 3.0 channels are found.

I am finding two sets of channels. What is the difference between the ones found with "standard" channel numbers and those in the 100+ channel number range? I see that MC assigns the recording to both numbers that correspond to a particular channel when I select a program to record from the guide.

[tzr916]

The ATSC 3.0 channels are assigned 100+ channel numbers by the SiliconDust tuner.... I cannot even get MC to find the 100+ channels at all. Performed OTA rescan in MC twice.

[curiousMonkey]

The ATSC 3.0 channels are showing up out here in Roseville. Playback of the live feed is a little erratic. When it starts I get a split second of green video and then MC locks up (spinning circle) briefly before the program plays.

 I am going to record some of the Olympic trials tonight and see how it looks. I was getting some mixed results with ATSC 1.0 occasionally over the last few years. Most of the time the reception is good but I do see dropouts and pixelation from time to time.

[JimH]

A better antenna can make a big difference.

[tzr916]

I don't understand why I cannot get my MC to find the ATSC 3.0 stations at all. Antenna is not my issue, ATSC 1.0 signals are 100%, and ATSC 3.0 stations do play in SiliconDust Apps. Where's Yoabing?

The ATSC 3.0 channels are showing up out here in Roseville. Playback of the live feed is a little erratic...

Can you show me what your MC channel scan looks like? Do the ATSC 3.0 stations show up as 100+ numbers in MC? Is MC actually playing AC-4 audio? because that is what ATSC 3.0 channels are supposed to be transmitting

[curiousMonkey]

I recorded the Olympic trials on 103 last night.
It looks and sounds fine to me. The only issue is that there is noticeable pixelation when I use +60 to advance through commercials. I verified that the pixelation does not occur on the programming I recorded two days ago with my ATSC 1.0 tuner.

[tzr916]

I'm still stumped, and not getting the ATSC 3.0 channels at all in MC... Does MC depend on guide data for OTA scanning? My guide service is not providing anything for ATSC 3.0 (yet), is that why ATSC 3.0 stations are missing from MC scanning? I've also tried using the option to "get from broadcast", but still nothing.... Is there some way I can "create" these stations in MC or in my guide data so that MC will pick them up in a scan?

[JimH]

I'm still stumped, and not getting the ATSC 3.0 channels at all in MC... Does MC depend on guide data for OTA scanning? My guide service is not providing anything for ATSC 3.0 (yet), is that why ATSC 3.0 stations are missing from MC scanning? I've also tried using the option to "get from broadcast", but still nothing.... Is there some way I can "create" these stations in MC or in my guide data so that MC will pick them up in a scan?

It is possible to add channels manually.  I'm not sure if it will work for ATSC 3.0.  Yaobing might know.

[Yaobing]

Sorry, I have not had a chance to look into ATSC 3.0 yet.

@curiousMonkey, are you saying you are able to tune to a 3.0 channel using MC?

@tzr916, what are the parameters of such channels in HDHomeRun software?  In particular, physical channel number?

[tzr916]

Raw scan using HDHR setup command line:

Code: [Select]

SCANNING: 527000000 (us-bcast:23)
LOCK: atsc3 (ss=100 snq=100 seq=100)
PROGRAM 1: 103.1 NBC
PROGRAM 2: 158.1 My58
PROGRAM 3: 113.1 CBS
PROGRAM 4: 140.1 FOX
PROGRAM 5: 110.1 ABC
Someone in the SiliconDust forum posted channel info:

Code: [Select]

General
ID                                       : 1 (0x1)
Complete name                            : C:\Users\bigron\Downloads\v113.mpeg
Format                                   : MPEG-TS
File size                                : 51.5 MiB
Duration                                 : 2 min 0 s
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 3 587 kb/s
FileExtension_Invalid                    : ts m2t m2s m4t m4s tmf ts tp trp ty

Video
ID                                       : 49 (0x31)
Menu ID                                  : 3 (0x3)
Format                                   : HEVC
Format/Info                              : High Efficiency Video Coding
Format profile                           : Main@L4.1@Main
Codec ID                                 : 36
Duration                                 : 2 min 0 s
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate                               : 59.940 (60000/1001) FPS
Standard                                 : Component
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0 (Type 0)
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Color range                              : Limited
Color primaries                          : BT.709
Transfer characteristics                 : BT.709
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709

Audio #1
ID                                       : 50 (0x32)
Menu ID                                  : 3 (0x3)
Format                                   : AC-4
Format/Info                              : Audio Coding 4
Commercial name                          : Dolby AC-4
Format version                           : Version 2
Codec ID                                 : 6
Duration                                 : 1 min 58 s
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 29.970 FPS (1601.6 SPF)
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Delay relative to video                  : 2 s 32 ms
Language                                 : Spanish
I-Frame interval                         : 8 frames
Number of presentations                  : 1
Number of substreams                     : 1
Presentation #1                          : Stereo Main
 Dialogue normalization                  : -24.00
 Loudness                                : Yes
  Integrated loudness (speech gated)     : -24.8 LKFS (Automated C or L+R)
  Integrated loudness (level gated)      : -24.5 LKFS
  Audio Loudness Standard                : Manual
  Realtime loudness corrected            : Yes
  Dialogue corrected                     : Yes (Automated C or L+R)
 Dynamic Range Control                   : Yes
 Group #s                                : 1
Group #1                                 : Main
 Content classifier                      : Main
 Channel coded                           : Yes
 Number of substreams                    : 1
 Substream #s                            : 1
Substream #1                             : Stereo
 Channel mode                            : Stereo
 Channel layout                          : L R
 Preprocessing                           : Yes
  Phase 90 Filer Info 2-ch               : Applied
 Dialogue enhancement                    : Yes
  Enabled                                : Yes
  Max gain                               : 9 dB
  Channel configuration                  : L

Audio #2
ID                                       : 51 (0x33)
Menu ID                                  : 3 (0x3)
[b]Format                                   : AC-4
Format/Info                              : Audio Coding 4
Commercial name                          : Dolby AC-4[/b]
Format version                           : Version 2
Codec ID                                 : 6
Duration                                 : 1 min 58 s
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 29.970 FPS (1601.6 SPF)
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Delay relative to video                  : 2 s 21 ms
Language                                 : English
I-Frame interval                         : 8 frames
Number of presentations                  : 1
Number of substreams                     : 1
Presentation #1                          : 5.1 Main
 Dialogue normalization                  : -24.00
 Loudness                                : Yes
  Integrated loudness (speech gated)     : -24.0 LKFS (Automated individual front channels)
  Integrated loudness (level gated)      : -23.3 LKFS
  Audio Loudness Standard                : Manual
  Realtime loudness corrected            : Yes
  Dialogue corrected                     : Yes (Automated individual front channels)
 Dynamic Range Control                   : Yes
 Downmix                                 : Yes
  LoRo center mix gain                   : -3.0 dB
  LoRo surround mix gain                 : -3.0 dB
  LtRt center mix gain                   : -3.0 dB
  LtRt surround mix gain                 : -3.0 dB
  LFE mix gain                           : -3 dB
  Preferred downmix                      : LtRt
 Group #s                                : 1
Group #1                                 : Main
 Content classifier                      : Main
 Channel coded                           : Yes
 Number of substreams                    : 1
 Substream #s                            : 1
Substream #1                             : 5.1
 Channel mode                            : 5.1
 Channel layout                          : L R C LFE Ls Rs
 Preprocessing                           : Yes
  Phase 90 filter info                   : Not applied
  Surround attenuation known             : No
  LFE attenuation known                  : No
 Dialogue enhancement                    : Yes
  Enabled                                : Yes
  Max gain                               : 9 dB
  Channel configuration                  : C


Is my suspicion correct that guide data is needed in order for MC to see the stations during OTA scanning?
All this might be moot when the stations change to ATSC 3.0 broadcast standard AC-4 audio, if MC cannot play it.

[JimH]

I don't think that guide data would be needed in order to find channels when scanning.

[tzr916]

Same failure in MC on my laptop as my Server. Scanning for channels finds all ATSC 1.0 stations, but none of the ATSC 3.0 stations. On the laptop, I choose "over the air" guide provider (not my paid subscription service like on the Server).

The ATSC 3.0 channels are showing up out here in Roseville.

curiousMonkey, are you using SiliconDust guide service in MC as you guide data provider?

[Yaobing]

Channel scanning is independent of guide choice.

[tzr916]

Channel scanning is independent of guide choice.

I have uninstalled HDHR software config drivers, rebooted, reinstalled, rebooted, scanning in their software clearly shows the ATSC 3.0 stations and they do play in the HDHR windows 10 app. Meanwhile no ATSC 3.0 stations in MC channel scan.
What else can I try? Would a log file help? Any special level of log file?

[Yaobing]

I am not sure.

I would like to hear from curiousMonkey that he was able to get ATSC 3 channel in MC, or maybe he was using DMS channels.

Unfortunately I don't think ATSC 3 channels are available in my area yet.

[Yaobing]

Did you select an ATSC 3 capable tuner during scan?  I assume the answer is yes, but I ask just in case you did not.

[tzr916]

Did you select an ATSC 3 capable tuner during scan?  I assume the answer is yes, but I ask just in case you did not.

Ya, I tried choosing "tuner 0", clicked on use the highlighted tuner to perform scan. Then tried it again choosing "tuner 1".

There's a post in my local OTA section on AVS Forum showing that our ATSC 3.0 stations are NOT including a call sign in the PSIP, or a valid TSID. Perhaps MC depends on valid PSIP and TSID for scanning?

Code: [Select]

"23" : {
"tsid" : "",
"modulation" : "atsc3",
"symbol_err" : "100",
"sig_noise" : "100",
"virtual" : {
"1" : {
"name" : "NBC",
"channel" : "103.1"
},
"4" : {
"name" : "FOX",
"channel" : "140.1"
},
"2" : {
"channel" : "158.1",
"name" : "My58"
},
"5" : {
"name" : "ABC",
"channel" : "110.1"
},
"6" : {
"channel" : "119.1",
"name" : "Uni"
},
"3" : {
"channel" : "113.1",
"name" : "CBS"
}
},
"strength" : "100"
},

[Yaobing]

Please send me a log file logging you running channel scan.

[tzr916]

Log sent.
Thanks
Screenshot of tuner status when HDHR windows 10 App is playing an ATSC 3.0 station:

[tzr916]

Well, I took a chance and setup tuner 0 and Tuner 1 as "Tuner Stream", and it does then find the ATSC 3.0 stations. Mapped (copied) the guide data from the corresponding ATSC 1.0 stations, and was able to record and play live tv (on the Server). However, live tv CPU usage was incredibly high at 75% (probably due to HEVC + madVR 1080->4k). Playing back a recorded show was somewhat less at 50% CPU. Normal tv playback (mpeg2 + madVR 1080->4k) is around 25% for me.

Playing live tv on a MC client PC is a disaster, I can see the tuner starts streaming by viewing the HDHR web utility (and a network monitor app on the server), but the client never actually starts playing audio or video, and just appears to be unresponsive. After pressing stop a few times and then closing MC on the client, the Server shows the tuner status as "Initializing" and I have to manually reboot the tuner and restart MC on the Server to get it back to "Idle". Playing the ATSC 3.0 recorded show works, CPU is normal because no madVR, but I get no audio (AC-4 issue).

[Yaobing]

The client-server setup for DMS channels is not implemented due to the fact that our original client-server design uses a JTV file, which is available on Windows only and we needed to support Mac and Linux.  So for now, the only way to let clients play such channels is to enable the respective tuners on the clients and let them be accessed by clients directly.

[tzr916]

Recorded some ATSC 3.0 stuff last night. Playback works except:
- playback has no sound when audio is AC-4
- madVR makes CPU go to 75% or higher
- comskip seems to hang when processing files with AC-4 audio
- when audio is AC-3 comskip creates the edl file with what appears to be normal markers, but no markers show up at all during playback so no commercial skipping

Anyone at JRiver want to be the first to get ffmpeg AC-4 working

[Hendrik]

The AC-4 decoder is still incomplete, but we are definitely keeping taps on that.

[Yaobing]

Log sent.
Thanks
Screenshot of tuner status when HDHR windows 10 App is playing an ATSC 3.0 station:

The screen shot shows a frequency of 527 Mhz, which seems to correspond to physical channel 23.  In your log, that band did not produce any signal lock.  I have to figure out if there are something special that I need to do before attempting to scan.

[tzr916]

T...for now, the only way to let clients play such channels is to enable the respective tuners on the clients and let them be accessed by clients directly.

This is exactly what I did, enabled DMS on the client. Video/Audio playback never started, then tuner status stuck in "Initializing".

[curiousMonkey]

Sorry, I have not had a chance to look into ATSC 3.0 yet.

@curiousMonkey, are you saying you are able to tune to a 3.0 channel using MC?

@tzr916, what are the parameters of such channels in HDHomeRun software?  In particular, physical channel number?

Yes, I am able to tune 3.0 channels, but there is no audio.
Any idea when a new MFT that supports AC-4 will be available?

[curiousMonkey]

Bump.

[JimH]

We're interested.  We just don't have a way to test.  Yet.

[DocLotus]

We're interested.  We just don't have a way to test.  Yet.

Any progress on this?

If not, I'm going to have to return my HD Homerun Flex 4K ASTC 3.0 back to Amazon as I only have sound in the HD HomeRun app & not MC.

[tzr916]

Other third party tv software users have been testing ATSC3.0 with ffmpeg AC-4 for months...
https://forums.nextpvr.com/showthread.php?tid=63481
https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=358104&page=2

[DocLotus]

Thanks for the input.

Not sure if Kodi for Windows helps me or not.

That article is the second time I've read that ATSC 3.0 implementations is years away (the Antenna Man from PA. even suggested 5-10 years).

Think I'll simply return the Flex 4K ASTC 3.0 back to Amazon & get another HD HomeRun Connect Quatro.

[tzr916]

My links were more geared at giving a carrot on a stick to MC development. We already know ATSC 3.0 dms tuning and video works in Windows MC. Still waiting on MC to say something positive about getting AC-4 audio working.

[Yaobing]

Sorry, but I still don't have more today about it.  I still don't have a TV station in my area that I can test.  I think the main obstacle is still AC-4 audio.

[JimH]

Maybe Silicondust could help?

https://forum.silicondust.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=74323

[tzr916]

A viable AC-4 windows "decoder/codec" needs to be created. Seems like ffmpeg could take years.

SiliconDust set up a real time transcoding service, but it only works with their software.

Where does MC stand on creating it's own solution for AC-4 audio?