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[FenceFurniture]

G'day

I have recently added a Schiit Jotunheim Headphone amp and a pair of balanced headphones to my system.
I also use a Harman Kardon Studio 2 from the PC, with a Cambridge Audio DacMagic in between. The HK S2 has it's own amp, can be run on Bluetooth, but I use it exclusively via a 3.5mm jack in order to carry the bandwidth of hi res tracks.

I am thoroughly confused about what to choose for sound output, from the PC, and how to get there easily. There seems to be numerous controls I have to change (on the PC) to change the sound output device (from a desktop speaker though a separate small DAC, to the headphones out of the Jotunheim.

There are times when the volume is what it should be (either of the above systems) and there are other times when the volume is miserable. There also seems to be several controls for the volume, and I never know what levels they should be set at. That is, should everything but the Headphone amp be at max volume or other other settings recommended.

I'll try to clarify this, and will refer to the attachments below:
Just now, in JRiver, I selected the Schiit (Direct Sound) using System Volume, and the volume was woeful. Tried Application Sound - no change.
Went to the Windows Sound Settings, chose the Schiit, Device Properties, Advanced Device Properties, and it was somehow set to 32bit, 48kHz. So I changed that to 32bit/192kHz but that didn't give any extra volume, as expected.
Then I noticed that the Master Volume was only on 8 (/100). This MAY, or may not have been where it was set for using the HK S2 speaker previously (but not out of JRiver).

That can all be seen in the attached jpeg.

Have I got those Windows setting correct? I think I have, but why do I have to keep on correcting the 48kHz to 192 kHz, when I never ever change it downwards?

To avoid confusion, I'll continue with a separate post.
In the Sound Settings for the PC, it was set to the CA DacMagic

[FenceFurniture]

Ok, the volume is now back to where it should be. I really don't know why I can't just turn the volume up from the keyboard or the Speaker icon in the tray. (sometimes I can, sometimes I can't)

And so now to the settings in JRiver. As can be seen from the attachment, I have set the volume to System Volume. Is that correct?

There are 16 output devices to choose from! I have previously been advised (on here) to use direct sound for the best quality. Of those audio devices:
U2868 (WASAPI & Direct) or the worse than useless speakers in the screen - I never use them for anything.
LAPTOP (WASAPI & Direct) are what you would expect them to be, and I do very occasionally use them.
Disk Writer and Null output are never referred to by me.
That leaves another 8 devices.
I do not know what the Default Audio Device [Direct Sound] is for.
I do not know what ASIO for Generic USB Device [ASIO] is for
Then there are 4 Cambridge Audio devices:
CA USBAudio ASIO Driver [ASIO] which I never use
CA DacMagic XS [WASAPI] which I never use
CA CA Audio 2.0 Output [Kernel Streaming] which I never use
CA DacMagic XS [Direct Sound] which I ALWAYS use for the Harman Kardon Studio 2 (which has the CA DacMagic before it)
Schiit USB Audio Gen 2 [WASAPI] which I never use
Schiit USB Audio Gen 2 [Direct Sound] which I ALWAYS use for the Schiit Jotunheim/Stellia Headphones

So, do I have those settings correct or are there things that need adjusting please?

Can I somehow delete some of those audio devices to make things simpler? I'm thinking U2868 (x2), LAPTOP (x2) because I will never use them for JRiver (but will need the LAPTOP speakers for the laptop, on occasion. Same for all the ASIO and WASAPI versions, and Kernel streaming. In JRiver I really only need a choice of
Schiit USB Audio Gen 2 [Direct Sound]
or
CA DacMagic XS [Direct Sound]

[FenceFurniture]

Another thing that confounds me is that sometimes I have music from JRiver on one of those two preferred choices, and the regular computer sounds come out of another device (which is my preferred option). Other times, like now, all sounds come out of whatever I have selected in JRiver.

So at the moment, I have JRiver through the Schiit/Headphones and so are the regular computer sounds. During the course of these posts, and trying to work it out it has chnged from JRiver - Schiit/Headphones and computer sounds through the CA DacMagic/Harman Kardon.

What I would like to be able to do:
When using JRiver/Schiit/Headphones, have the computer sounds through CA DacMagic/Harman Kardon
When using JRiver/CA DacMagic/Harman Kardon, have the computer sounds through the LAPTOP speakers.

[RD James]

1. DirectSound is a shared output.
That means all audio is resampled by Windows to match the device settings, so that it can be mixed together with other system sounds; e.g. 192kHz output when playing a 44.1kHz track (or any other).
 
WASAPI is an exclusive output.
That means it prevents other applications from playing sounds on that device while MC is playing, MC can take control of the volume level, and MC can switch the sample rate to match the track being played; e.g. 44.1kHz output for a 44.1kHz track, 192kHz output for a 192kHz track.
 
ASIO may be exclusive or shared (though MC makes the assumption it is exclusive).
I generally don't recommend using it unless your device has issues playing certain audio formats via WASAPI (typically native DSD rather than DoP).
 
2. If you want system sounds playing to one device, and MC audio playing to another, make sure that the default playback device in Windows is set to something other than the playback device in MC.
For example: set Windows to play audio on the "Laptop" device, and MC to play to the "Schiit USB Audio Gen 2" device.
The default sound device in Windows can be changed by clicking the speaker icon on the taskbar/system tray.
Note: the default may change automatically when you connect a new USB audio device.
 
3. If your playback device has its own volume control, I recommend that you set MC's volume control to "Disabled".
Combined with a WASAPI output, which bypasses Windows' volume control, this will play back tracks at 100% volume level, with volume only being controlled by your device.
If you want to control volume via MC, I recommend using the "Internal Volume" control and making sure that dither is set to "TPDF" (note: you can search in the options window to find settings like these).
 
4. Though it will cut down the output level a bit, I generally recommend that you let Media Center analyze your library's music tracks and then enable Volume Leveling in DSP Studio.
Once the tracks are analyzed, Volume Leveling should play them back at a consistent level, so that you are not reaching for the volume control all the time.
 
5. I recommend that you setup different Zones in Media Center for each audio device that you are playing back to, since it sounds like you have different devices for speakers/headphones.

[FenceFurniture]

Thank you very much for that very detailed reply. I will have to digest it tomorrow (dinner duties right now).

Yes, I have analysed all the tracks and enabled Volume Levelling.

[JimH]

There are 16 output devices to choose from! I have previously been advised (on here) to use direct sound for the best quality.

We don't recommend Direct Sound unless you're having trouble with WASAPI or ASIO.

https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Setup

[FenceFurniture]

Thanks Jim. Yes, I was having trouble with ASIO at the time. The Toshiba laptop is only capable of 24 bit 48kHz, even though it's only 4 years old. I went through an exhaustive process with Roderick GI trying to work out what the sound card was capable of, and we came to that conclusion. That is why I added the CA DacMagic so that I could get 96kHz and above.

[JimH]

ASIO drivers are provided by the device manufacturers.  Occasionally they don't work as advertised.  Sometimes they are 32 bit drivers that only with the 32 bit version of MC.

[FenceFurniture]

1. DirectSound is a shared output.
That means all audio is resampled by Windows to match the device settings, so that it can be mixed together with other system sounds; e.g. 192kHz output when playing a 44.1kHz track (or any other).
 
WASAPI is an exclusive output.
That means it prevents other applications from playing sounds on that device while MC is playing, MC can take control of the volume level, and MC can switch the sample rate to match the track being played; e.g. 44.1kHz output for a 44.1kHz track, 192kHz output for a 192kHz track.
 
ASIO may be exclusive or shared (though MC makes the assumption it is exclusive).
I generally don't recommend using it unless your device has issues playing certain audio formats via WASAPI (typically native DSD rather than DoP).
 
2. If you want system sounds playing to one device, and MC audio playing to another, make sure that the default playback device in Windows is set to something other than the playback device in MC.
For example: set Windows to play audio on the "Laptop" device, and MC to play to the "Schiit USB Audio Gen 2" device.
The default sound device in Windows can be changed by clicking the speaker icon on the taskbar/system tray.
Note: the default may change automatically when you connect a new USB audio device.
 
3. If your playback device has its own volume control, I recommend that you set MC's volume control to "Disabled".
Combined with a WASAPI output, which bypasses Windows' volume control, this will play back tracks at 100% volume level, with volume only being controlled by your device.
If you want to control volume via MC, I recommend using the "Internal Volume" control and making sure that dither is set to "TPDF" (note: you can search in the options window to find settings like these).
 
4. Though it will cut down the output level a bit, I generally recommend that you let Media Center analyze your library's music tracks and then enable Volume Leveling in DSP Studio.
Once the tracks are analyzed, Volume Leveling should play them back at a consistent level, so that you are not reaching for the volume control all the time.
 
5. I recommend that you setup different Zones in Media Center for each audio device that you are playing back to, since it sounds like you have different devices for speakers/headphones.

Ok, reading this in depth now.
It sounds like for the JRiver/Schiit/Headphone combination, I should be using:

• Schiit WASAPI which will play back the tracks in whatever sampling they are in.
• Set JRiver volume to "disabled" and use the volume knob on the Jotunheim.
• At the same time I should make the CA DacMagic/Harman Kardon Studio 2 the Default Windows Device.

That will mean I have to change the Def.Win.Device to the LAPTOP when I give the HK S2 to JRiver in WASAPI, unless I want to permanently allocate the LAPTOP speakers to Windows, but they are really very poor and quiet.
However, that should cease to be a problem in a month or so when I will be putting in a pair of studio monitors to run out of the Schiit Jotunheim. At that point I can just let JRiver have permanent exclusive access to the Schiit, and Windows can have the Harman Kardon.

I'll do some research on Zones, as I have not used them before.

Thanks to you and Jim for your assistance.

[FenceFurniture]

I have set up 2 zones, one for the Schiit/Headphones, and one for the CA DacMagic/Harman Kardon Studio 2.

I have looked for info in the Wiki but it all seems to be for more complicated uses of Zones, such as Groups etc. The "Zones - JRiverWiki" page is remarkably brief.

If I understand things correctly I have to drag what I want to play into the Zone, and then delete the tracks when finished. Is that right? I can't seem to find a way of having all the albums in there displayed as albums (by album artist), because it apparently will only display files. That's ok, if that's the way it is, but I just want to make sure I'm on the right track.....or not.... ?

[ferday]

no, that's not right

zones are unrelated to views.  to "select" a zone, you can click the zone first (making it active), then use your normal view to find music (a handy hotkey to switch zones is ctrl-T).  when you push play it will play to the "active" zone.  alternatively, when you select the music you want to play, right click and select   send to > "your zone" > play option.  you can also drag and drop as you have discovered.

the list of albums you see in the "zone screen" is actually Playing Now, which is a powerful view of it's own.  you can't display the Playing Now list as albums, but you can certainly see the album artwork, etc. of the album that is playing

[FenceFurniture]

OK, thanks ferday. That confirms what I thought, and adds a couple of options.

But I do have to delete them from the zone when they're finished playing don't I? Otherwise the tracks will just clog it up unnecessarily?

[RD James]

Zones are your "playlist" for that device. You were already using a single zone before, you just added a second one for your other device.
That lets you play music to either/both without having to reconfigure the outputs each time.
I think the default behavior is that when you hit "play" on an album it will replace the list - either that or I have changed it. If you were not concerned about what was in the default zone before, I wouldn't be concerned about it now.
 
I personally use the "split view" feature of Media Center to have my Zones set up as tabs in one locked view, and my library browsing in the other.

[FenceFurniture]

Using zones has cleared up all those problems. Thanks!

[FenceFurniture]

Using zones has cleared up all those problems. Thanks!

For a while, that was true, but a new and completely perplexing sound problem has emerged without changing any settings.

The Schiit Zone is working just fine.

The HK Studio 2 Zone has developed a problem where the volume cannot be turned under any circumstances. The only way I can turn the volume down is on the speaker itself (it is an active speaker.
In JRiver I have the Audio Device as HK Studio 2 [WASAPI], and the volume mode is System volume.

If I look at the Sound Setings "Additional Device Preoperties" Advanced tab, it is showing
24 Bit, 192000Hz (Studio Quality) which is correct
and under Exclusive Mode, both boxes are checked (Allow apps to take exclusive control, and give exclusive mode apps priority)

So that part is as it should be, I think.

If I click on the Speaker icon in the tray, I can slide the volume up and down and the System sounds vary accordingly. As it should.
However, at the moment I cannot change the volume or mute from the Keyboard, which I normally can.
That will change at some seemingly random point and I will be able to use the keyboard.
At the same time the volume is deafening when I play JRiver - 100%, even though the slider is on 3% (and system noises are working properly at 3%  volume). The JRiver slider move up and down as I adjust the slider in the tray.

It doesn't seem to matter what I set the JRiver volume in Options to: App Vol, System Vol, Disabled vol, ...it is always the same 100% volume. If I set it to Internal Vol (which I have never used I don't think) I can vary the volume with the JRiver slider, but NOT the slider in the tray. But here's the really weird thing: the mute in the tray works!Tray slider no, tray mute yes. How can that be?

What drives me to distraction is that is has been working perfectly for a few weeks, and without changing anything has now fallen apart.

Before I posted that the Schiit Zone was working OK I thought "I better just check that". And no, it actually wasn't. I could only get massively distorted dirt out of it. Stopped play, unplugged the Amp (USB), replugged and restarted play, and it's ok again.

I have added a screenshot that shows the Internal Vol settings (the only way I can control the sound now). The max vol is 100 and the internal vol ref level is also 100. I've never adjusted those before because I've never used Internal before.

The Schiit Zone Volume Mode is System Volume.

[RoderickGI]

If I set it to Internal Vol (which I have never used I don't think) I can vary the volume with the JRiver slider, but NOT the slider in the tray. But here's the really weird thing: the mute in the tray works!Tray slider no, tray mute yes. How can that be?

This is all normal and good. It works that way by design. Internal Volume is best. Particularly now that you have the new equipment and are using the HK Studio 2 connected with a 3.5mm jack. You were advised to use Direct Sound because you were using a Bluetooth connection to the HK Studio 2, if memory serves, and you wanted to hear System Sounds. So you needed the Windows Mixer to transcode all audio to the same format.

The slider in the Windows System Tray doesn't need to move. In fact you should have "Options > Audio > Audio Device > Device Settings > Maximise device volume during playback" ticked, to get the best sound and let MC control the volume using Internal Volume. However, that may be an issue if you are playing system sounds to the same device directly, and still using Direct Sound. Using the WDM Driver in MC can get around that, but I find the latency of System Sounds when doing that annoying.

Personally, on my Workstation, which is not my primary listening PC, I set the System Volume to 50% and use the volume knob on my active speakers to set the System Sounds to the correct level. Then I use Internal Volume to control the MC volume, using WASAPI. So if I am playing anything through MC then System Sounds are lost, and I don't care. If I play something through MC, then MC sets the System Volume to 100% which gives me the correct listening level for MC audio, and then when I stop playback MC resets the System Volume back to what it was before. In my case, 50%.


Also, it is possible that a MC or Windows update has caused a bit of a glitch with those settings. Read this thread: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,125615.0.html Then try changing the settings stevehughes changed, saving them, then changing them back. That may fix all your current issues anyway.

[FenceFurniture]

Thank you for your response Roderick - I'll try that a little later.

The HK is only coming out of the 3.5mm jack on the Cambridge Audio DacMagic, which comes out of a USB from the puta. The 3.5mm jack on the puta is now unused.

I don't think it's an update problem because I had to do updates today, and it's been playing up since Monday night. The updates today didn't change anything that is going wrong - still just as wrong as it was.

[FenceFurniture]

Ok, tweaks done as suggested and it's all back under control. Vol can now be adjusted from the keyboard, and it all works as you specified. Thank you!

Blessed if I know why it went out of whack - if it had been after a Win update I could understand it, but not before, and persisting afterwards.

[FenceFurniture]

Vol can now be adjusted from the keyboard,

In JRiver I can adjust or mute the volume from the keyboard, but not for other sounds - that is, the keyboard only changes the volume in JRiver, nothing else.

[wer]

Well if you changed to internal volume as Rod suggested, that's what you should expect.

System sounds go through system volume.  Internal volume is MC only.

You could control both simultaneously if you had MC set to system volume, but Rod is quite correct that internal volume is preferred.

[RoderickGI]

Well, that is a consequence of using MC Internal Volume, the setting "Options > General > Advanced > Media key mode", and whether MC is running or not.

Try the different modes and see if any meet your requirements. But if you are expecting the MC Volume to be adjusted (while MC is running) at the same time as the volume in Windows, you may not get what you want with Internal Volume.

Have you read these?
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Volume
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/General_Settings


Plus what Wer says. 

[FenceFurniture]

I was thinking I might be able to get it back to how it was a couple of days ago, when it was:
on System Volume in the HK Studio 2 zone
the keyboard adjusted the vol in System sounds and in JRiver when it was being played (I have JR open all the time)
the slider could also be used to adjust the volume for JR and System (they were tied together).

However, when that turned into JR having unadjustable volume at 100% all the time I had to seek another solution, which you provided. Still don't know how that 100% vol came about without changing anything.

Media Key options: (with Internal Volume, HK Studio 2 zone, Systems sounds coming from Laptop speakers)
Auto - JR uses keyboard buttons for its vol control. Tray Vol slider stays on 100. System sounds volume doesn't change, and can't be changed (or can't be changed easily)
Disabled - KB buttons don't work for JR (but mute does work), and System Sounds do not get affected (but the slider can be seen to be going up and down)
App commands - seems to be identical to Disabled
Hot Keys - JR uses keyboard buttons for its vol control. Tray Vol slider does not move. System sounds do not change. Appears to be almost identical to Auto, except that the slider stays on whatever vol it was on (stays on 100 with Auto).

The upshot of this is that using Internal Volume I do not have any way of controlling system sounds volume, either with the keyboard or the sliders (EDIT:) WHEN JR IS PLAYING. I'd prefer it to be the other way around because I have already (months ago) set up JR vol commands:
Ctrl and ▲ or ▼ changes vol in 5% steps, and using Alt instead of Ctrl changes it in 15% steps.

Reading those links:
Not much is said about System volume -
"System Volume controls the master volume of the entire system. It is equivalent to clicking the volume system icon and adjusting the slider. "
Not any more! Only ever yields 100% volume for JRiver.

I'm still trying to understand why the JR vol is 100% since two days ago, when the sound mixer looks like the screenshot attached to this post.


It seems to me that there is something very odd happening. In the course of writing the above I tested many different settings. The last thing I have just tested was going back to System Volume just to see if anything had changed (referring to Doof's comments in t'other thread about change and change back sometimes seems to clear things).

The JR volume was still 100%, and so I took the screenshot of the mixer.

I am not sure if I changed to Internal volume before the following happened (things are getting a little blurred now):
Then, I couldn't get any sound out of anything (Windows or JR) until I unplugged the USB from the computer going to the DacMagic (which goes to the HK Studio 2). Now it is back to what I might call the new normal (Internal vol selected, JR volume is controllable, System sounds can't be changed and go the Laptop speakers when JR is playing).

[RoderickGI]

Devices and their drivers have different features, but when I use Internal Volume, at least for my output device, there is a setting at "Options > Audio > Audio Device > Device Settings" which says "Maximise volume during playback". If that is ticked, MC will set the volume of the device, which is the System Volume, to 100%. That could be what you are seeing, but when I do that I can change the System Volume and it change both the System Sounds and the volume of MC playback.

Does your DacMagic USB DAC have that setting? Try turning it off.

With the Media Keys, what you have installed on your PC can change behaviour. For example, I'm using a Logitech G15 keyboard that uses a Logitech driver. When I set the Media Keys to "App Commands" I would expect only MC volume to be adjusted by the keyboard Media Keys, when MC is in focus. But the System Volume is always adjusted with that setting. That's why you have to try each setting and see if it does what you want. Because on your system it may behave differently.

I don't have two audio outputs on my PCs set up, so I can't replicate exactly what you are doing. Well, I do sort of on my HTPC. I might try that later.


Anyway, the behaviour you get is a combination of several settings, as you have seen. Which is why testing is required, particularly as everybody's environment is different, and so are their requirements.

However, when using Internal Volume with just one audio output device, MC's slider should control only MC's volume.
Media Keys set to "Automatic" will probably act as if they are set to "Hot Keys", so choose either one you want. Then the Media Keys should control only MC's volume.
Media Keys set to "Disabled", "App Commands", or "Hot Keys (ignore volume)" should leave the Media keys controlling the Windows System Volume.
Even with the "Maximise volume during playback" setting selected, so that MC sets the System Volume to 100% when it is playing, you should still be able to adjust the overall volume using the Windows Volume Slider. When you do adjust that volume, it should adjust both MC's volume, and any System Sounds volume.

If you are outputting to two separate Audio Devices, as you are, I would expect Internal Volume, and the Media Keys, if they are tied to MC, to control the Audio Device MC is set to. I would then expect the Windows System Volume slider to control the volume of the Audio Device that Windows is set to play to. i.e. The Windows Default Audio Device, which in your case should be the laptop speakers.


Bottom line:
You should be able to adjust the volume using the Windows Volume Slider, always. I don't know why that isn't working for you. Be sure to stop playback in MC between adjusting settings. Some settings take immediate effect, such as Media Keys, but better to be sure.
If in doubt, shutdown and restart MC.
If you disconnect the USB DAC, restart MC before testing.
If what is happening still doesn't make sense, reboot the PC.

Also, it's quite possible that your "Ctrl and ▲ or ▼ changes vol in 5% steps, and using Alt instead of Ctrl changes it in 15% steps" is interfering with an existing Windows hotkey or something, particularly when MC isn't in focus. But that is another issue, and may be fine.

[FenceFurniture]

"Options > Audio > Audio Device > Device Settings" which says "Maximise volume during playback"

Yes, that was and is ticked.

Does your DacMagic USB DAC have that setting? Try turning it off.

As above, but I only just turned that on a day or two ago when you suggested to use Maximise Vol during playback - in other words that is not the cause of the 100% volume when I use System Volume because it was happening before that change you recommended.

You should be able to adjust the volume using the Windows Volume Slider, always.
If what is happening still doesn't make sense, reboot the PC.

I always used to be able to use the slider, but the keyboard buttons would stop sometimes lately, and then start working again after a little rest. Have done a stack of restarts yesterday due to doing the updates. No difference I'm afraid.

I really don't think that
"Ctrl and ▲ or ▼ changes vol in 5% steps"
is making this weird behaviour happen. I set that up six months ago or more. There was a sudden change to 100% unadjustable vol using System Volume a couple of days ago.
Before that, all was good after setting up the zones.

Your help is very much appreciated Roderick.

[MusicBringer]

@RD James, so helpful, esp post number 3.
It sorted me out. I can now control volume with MC. I am very happy now 😊 The wife is even happier 👵 👍
thanks,

[pacdpm]

Thank you FenceFurniture for asking.  Thank You RD James for concise explanation.  Thank you RoderickGI for additional info.  I spend WAY too much time on these forums trying to figure things out. (just exactly what IS a sidecar?) I think JRiver is one of the greatest programs I've ever found (in 22+ years) and most important--IT'S FUN!!! but, again, JRiver for Dummies would be a bestseller.

[JimH]

I spend WAY too much time on these forums trying to figure things out. (just exactly what IS a sidecar?) I think JRiver is one of the greatest programs I've ever found (in 22+ years) and most important--IT'S FUN!!! but, again, JRiver for Dummies would be a bestseller.

Here's a topic on how to search:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,124361.0.html

If you ask Google what is a sidecar and add jriver, you get the right answer.

https://www.google.com/search?q=what+is+a+sidecar+jriver&rlz=1CACCBQ_enUS896US896&oq=what+is+a+sidecar+jriver