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[xexets]

Hello!
So I have a large collection of classical music in my JRiver. In the past, not sure why, I used to rip my CDs to CUE+APE and then to CUE+FLAC. No problem having them in JRiver of course. However yesterday I moved the library to a new HD and... wonderful surprise, I lost all tagging done in JRiver for everything that was CUE+FLAC or CUE+APE. HURRAY! (I have sidecar on, but it does not work for cue rips???).
In order to avoid this in the future, I thought I might bite the bullet and just split all CUE+FLAC and convert the  CUE+APE track FLAC.
JRiver makes it very simple: I can just bulk convert and replace the files in library so I should not even notice it once it's done.

My question is about whether these operations are lossless:

1) Converting cue+Flac into track flac (since there no real option to SPLIT the flac in JRiver): is it lossless? Should I rather do it with cuetools?
2) Converting Cue+APE into track flac: is it lossless? Should I use another software?

3) instead of converting is there another way? - i.e. why don't sidecar files work for me - shouldn't they work with cue+flac/ape since internal tagging is not supported in this case?

Many thanks!

[w_axlrose1]

1) It should be. I've not used Cuetools but have used Medieval Cue Splitter and the result is lossless.
2) It's lossless.

[Awesome Donkey]

If you're ever trying to decide using either Medieval Cue Splitter or CUETools, Medieval Cue Splitter should be avoided because it introduces sector boundary errors (or SBEs) when splitting files, and CUETools does not.

Otherwise, yes, it should be lossless.

[xexets]

Thanks, so I can just use JRiver to 'split' the cue+flac and it'll be lossless, same thing with cue+ape.
My understanding is that it won't 'split' the flac into tracks but it'll convert it to PCM, and then back to flac split in tracks, but the whole operation is, since it's flac, lossless.
Thank you!

[tij]

Flacs are pcm ... raw pcm usually are in wav files. Flac contain those pcm in compressed form.

Analogy would be flac is like a zip that compresses wav files. Zip have a higher compression ratio ... but zip need to be complettely unzip to access what inside. Flac can play and seek pcm they contain without completely uncompressing what they contain.

[xexets]

Yes indeed thanks. And also APE is PCM right?

[tij]

Yes indeed thanks. And also APE is PCM right?

Yup APE is compression algorith that contains  PCM too.

In fact all audio formats are PCM ... except DSD.

APE and FLAC are similar to zip in that they do not alter what they are compressing. What differentiate them from zip is that they allow access to part of what they contain without "unzipping" whole file.

MP3 and AAC on the other hand petmanantly alter PCM they encode inorder to save space.

[xexets]

Perfect many thanks! Then basically if I stay away from lossy formats every ‘transcoding’ done in JRiver is lossless a part from anything involving DSD (including DSD iso to DSF) because that would imply a conversion to PCM (though I might not notice)?

[tij]

Not exactly ... PCM is characterised by bit deapth and sampling
1. reducing those is lossy process
2. increasing bit deapth is lossless but pointless ... just padding zeroes at the end and increasing storage space
3. increasing sampling frequency is also lossy process (even if done in multiples of 2 ... someone correct me here if i am wrong)

It is important to understand what lossless is. It means you do something to your audio file, and then later can revert back to original quality.

It does not mean best quality. It just mean you preserve the original quality of your source material.

if you just splitting large flac/ape without altering bit depth and frequency correctly its a lossless process. Meaning that if you combine split files back to one large one in correct order ... you will end up with exactly same audio you started with.

Someone correct me if i am wrong here again ... but my understanding is because of the nature DSD is encoded ... you cannot losslessly split DSD audio.

[xexets]

Yes indeed, thanks for  clarifying. Of course FLAC/APE to flac can be lossless if sample rate is not changed, it is not automatically lossless.
As for DSD, my understanding is that with SACD_EXTRACT you can get DSF out of ISOs without any re-enconding. But I might be wrong

[tij]

i use cueTools to split files. The reason beeing it can check your rip againsht other ppl rips and give indication whether your rip is bit perfect. It can also repair minor glitches in your rip (maybe due to small scratches) by comparing your rip to other ppl rip.

[Awesome Donkey]

Someone correct me if i am wrong here again ... but my understanding is because of the nature DSD is encoded ... you cannot losslessly split DSD audio.

You can take a SACD ISO and use sacd_extract to "extract" individual files (in DFF or DSF format for example), and it should be a 'lossless' process doing so because there's no resampling or dithering involved.

I've done it at least 60 times, and the results have been perfect.

[xexets]

Yes, that was my understanding

[Frobozz]

I've never used JRiver Media Center to split a CUE+APE or CUE+FLAC. I don't know exactly how MC would do it, but I would expect it would do it fully lossless and do things the right way.

What I would do to confirm would be to first use CueTools to verify a CUE+FLAC and make sure that rip matches with AccurateRip and CTDB.
Then have MC split it.
Then have CueTools verify the split files to make sure they match up with the same AccurateRip and CTDB findings as before.

If it passes that, and I expect it will, then you're good to go to have MC split all of your CUE rips and import them into your library.

[joshhuggins]

I've never used JRiver Media Center to split a CUE+APE or CUE+FLAC. I don't know exactly how MC would do it, but I would expect it would do it fully lossless and do things the right way.

What I would do to confirm would be to first use CueTools to verify a CUE+FLAC and make sure that rip matches with AccurateRip and CTDB.
Then have MC split it.
Then have CueTools verify the split files to make sure they match up with the same AccurateRip and CTDB findings as before.

If it passes that, and I expect it will, then you're good to go to have MC split all of your CUE rips and import them into your library.

I just did this just using the Convert Format function in Media Center and I think worked great. All the tracks I used JRMC to separate the CUE+FLAC into individual track files show Accurate Rip matches except some of the really obscure stuff I had that I am guessing is not in the CTDB.

[dtc]

dff and dsf are the two common two DSD formats. Neither of them is compressed. dff does not store metadata and is thus analogous to wav. dsf has a metadata section using id3 format. Converting between the two should simply change the header, leaving the uncompressed data the same.

DSD files have traditionally been uncompressed, although there is no reason they cannot be compressed. Wavpack does have a lossless dsd compression format and stores it is a  .wv file. Wavpack can then decompress the .wv format losslessly to the original data. They claim to be able to compress up to 60%. I have never tried this format.

MC does support wavpack, but I have never tried it for DSD files.

https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/digital/pc-software/compressing-dsd-files-with-wavpack-5/

EDIT:

Looks like playing  wavpack compressed DSD has been implemented since V23.

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=110703.0

[MikeO]

I have used CUETools for years with no issues

Just try say Dark side of the moon , your question will be answered  😉