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[curiousMonkey]

I have been using JRiver MC26 for quite some time. I have a variety of blu-ray and DVD files stored on a NAS that I view on a 4K projector. Recently I upgraded my Sony projector to a newer JVC model and I started noticing motion artifacts and dropped frames, particularly when I play DVD files with JRiver. I had been using Red October Standard so I changed to HQ with hardware assist.

After making that change, there don't seem to be any problems with blu-ray files but they were already fairly uncommon. However the DVD files remain unplayable because of the high number of dropped frames. I played around with all of the motion settings on my new JVC projector but nothing seems to have any effect. I also noticed that when I played the same file from DVD, the video was flawless but there were lip sync issues. I don't see any problems with 4K media, even at 60 FPS.

Any ideas why changing the projector has introduced the problem or how to fix the problem?

[tij]

What resolution and frame rate you playing ...

if you using RO HQ ... press ctr+j to bring MadVR stats ... take a screenshot and post here ... so can have idea whats going on

EDIT: if new to MadVR ... read this for basic understanding ... https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,124136.0.html

[curiousMonkey]

Here is a screenshot showing the MadVR settings.

[JimH]

Try Red October HQ without modifying madVR.

[curiousMonkey]

I don't know how to modify MadVR. All I did was choose Red October HQ and select the hardware assist check box in MC26.

[JimH]

I don't know how to modify MadVR. All I did was choose Red October HQ and select the hardware assist check box in MC26.

Try unchecking it.

[curiousMonkey]

Here is what I have tried so far:

1) Red October Standard - 3 years with Sony projector (no problems) then 1 week with new JVC projector (dropped frames).
2) Red October HQ with JVC (dropped frames)
3) Red October HQ + hardware assist with JVC (dropped frames)

[tij]

Your rendering times are within a limit of your 24fps. Buy you have lots of dropped frame, which is strange (unless you been fast farwarding a lot before you took screen shot ... it takes a second after fast farwarding for movie to play smooth)

Dropped framed you may be perceiving might be be because you playing 29.97fps movie at 24fps

[Movieman]

I'm guessing when you installed the new projector, the PC saw a new device and reset its video settings.
The movie shows a refresh rate of 29.97 which is standard for DVD even if the film is encoded at 23.976.   Your video card refresh rate is set to 24 (which in itself is incorrect as Blurays are actually encoded at the 23.976 fps rate. First, set the video card refresh to 23 or 29 on your PC. Then let's see where we are.

[Hendrik]

The DVD might actually be truely 29.97 fps, which would look rather bad when played on 24 Hz, as it would need to drop a lot of frames.

[curiousMonkey]

The DVD is a TV show (NYPD Blue).

Here is the data from 23Hz.

[tij]

Use MC to switch to correct refresh rate

options->video->display setting->display setting automatic change mode: ON

PS. if its TV show ... very likely its actually 29.97 (especially so old show) ... i bet it is still jumpy at 23fps

[wer]

The dropped frames are happening because you are playing something madvr thinks is 29.97fps with your display set to 24fps.

Actually, a lot of TV shows are shot on film, and are put on DVD at their original framerate, but with duplicated frames to pad the framerate to 29.97fps. The X-Files and Magnum PI are this way: they are natively 23.976. Not sure about NYPD Blue.

There are two ways to fix this, the easy way and the good way.

Easy way: Set the display rate to 29.97.  The dropped frames will stop. (You may see the occasional stutter because of repeated frames).  If you then see "Repeated Frames" constantly increasing in your MadVR display, switch to the good way:

Good way: If you check the video with MediaInfo, it may report the frame rate as 23.976 or 24fps, or it may explicitly say the video is progressive.  Another way to tell is if the video shows constantly increasing "repeated frames" when played at 29.97.  To fix this, set the "FPS" tag in MC to be the same as the frame rate indicated in media info, either 23.976 or 24.  If your display rate is set to the same rate, you will get perfect playback with no dropped frames. You will see the content as originally shot with no stuttering.

Occasionally you may need to force FILM mode if you see any artifacts in the picture. Google madvr film mode.  You can do this by adding DEINT=FILM to the filename of the video, or by using MadVR profile rules.

Almost all MOVIES on DVD require 23.976/24 fps playback to display perfectly. I have only a handful that are hard-interlaced and require 29.97. For TV shows on DVD, it's more of a mixed bag. A lot use 23.976/24, but a significant number are hard interlaced and require 29.97 since they were shot on video. You have to test to be sure.

I've dealt with this issue a lot, but this is a more complete answer to your issue, if you're willing to but a bit of extra effort in to get perfect playback.

[curiousMonkey]

I changed the video mode to 23.976 FPS and set auto change mode to ON.
Now I can see that the DVD file is played back with a frame rate of just under 60Hz.
The only remaining problems are that it takes the projector about 10 seconds to resync to the new frame rate (audio after 3 seconds) and occasionally the video freezes when I play the first file at 59.94 Hz.

 

[wer]

I changed the video mode to 23.976 FPS and set auto change mode to ON.
Now I can see that the DVD file is played back with a frame rate of just under 60Hz.
The only remaining problems are that it takes the projector about 10 seconds to resync to the new frame rate (audio after 3 seconds) and occasionally the video freezes when I play the first file at 59.94 Hz.

Please take another look at my post.

I changed the video mode to 23.976 FPS

What exactly do you think you did? Because you didn't change the FPS tag of the file.  You shouldn't change your desktop refresh rate; let MC deal with that.  Maybe you were trying tij's experiment.

The line in the MadVR display that ends in "(says source filter)" indicates the file is still tagged as 29.97.
If you change the FPS tag of the file, MadVR will show that value in that line of the display. E.g. "movie 23.976fps (says source filter)"

You need to have "Display Settings Automatic change mode" set to ON to be able to properly play files at different frame rates.  You say you've done that.

Now you need to ensure you set the FPS tag for the file correctly.  If "Repeated Frames" is constantly growing, the file FPS should not be set to 29.97, it should be set to 23.976 or 24.

If MadVR sees a file set at 29.97, as yours currently is, it's normal behavior is to run the display at 59.94 (which is exactly twice the framerate of the file).  That is not a problem.

So, with the settings you now have, are you seeing "repeated frames" constantly increasing or not?
Or are you still seeing "dropped frames" constantly increasing?

[tij]

I havent dealt with DVD for some time ... as most were ripped long ago and were sorted into folders for MadVR profile (similar to what wer do with filenames).

I dont remember ... but wouldnt forcing Film Mode in MadVR force film to be played at 23/24?

As wer said ... to get best quality ... is largely trial/error ... unless you know exactly how DVD was created from original source ... and even then results can be strange.

PS. what format are your DVD stored in ... mkv? iso? or folder structure?

[wer]

I dont remember ... but wouldnt forcing Film Mode in MadVR force film to be played at 23/24?

No, tij.  Forcing film mode turns on decimation, but does not actually change the display/playback rate.  That's why the FPS change is necessary.  If you turn on decimation (film mode) but leave the framerate at 29.97, the results are worse.  This is not a well documented aspect of madvr, so a lot of people are confused about it.

[curiousMonkey]

When I said "changed the video mode", I was referring to the desktop setting in the video card. I made no changes in MadVR or JRiver aside from turning Display Settings Automatic change to ON.

The number of dropped and repeated frames are not changing and the picture is stable. I was just supplying the output to show the final results.
I did not mean to imply that 59.94 was a problem, just the final result from using automatic change.

All of my files are stored in MKV as individual episodes. The directory structure is TV Shows\Show Name\files for all episodes.mkv.

[wer]

The number of dropped and repeated frames are not changing and the picture is stable.

Ok, good job then, you should be set.  Like I said, keep your regular desktop settings (usually 60Hz) and let MC handle mode switching when you play videos.

Keep in mind this result is just valid for NYPD Blue.  If you try another series on DVD at these settings, like X-Files, you may see repeated frames constantly increasing.  That's your sign that you need to set the FPS tag for the episodes of that series to 23.976.

Good luck...

[tij]

No, tij.  Forcing film mode turns on decimation, but does not actually change the display/playback rate.  That's why the FPS change is necessary.  If you turn on decimation (film mode) but leave the framerate at 29.97, the results are worse.  This is not a well documented aspect of madvr, so a lot of people are confused about it.

Darn ... this is not how I understood it ... assuming MadVR/MC was set up correctly to change display refresh rate to match played content ... my understanding was:

DVD comes in basic 3 flavors:

1. Has interlaced video that comes from interlaced source ... MadVR should use "Video Mode" for deinterlacing (without access to LAV settings in MC - I always wondered which deinterlacing technique MC use as default)

2. Has interlaced video that comes from progressive source using telecine (Hard-telecine)  ... MadVR should use "Film Mode" for deinterlacing using IVTC (inverse telecine) that will get 23.976 through frame decimation

3. Has progressive video in original framerate that plays on old TV by doing telecine on fly (Soft-telecine) ... I always assume MC/MadVR played it as is (without doing soft-telecine that is needed for old interlaced TV)

MadVR can get 1 and 2 wrong on Auto mode ... thats why i test both to see which one is correct ... then sort them for MadVR profiling to force either Film or Video mode

Ofcourse ... this world is not perfect ... and there are glitches ... e.g. hard-telecine still got combing effect (likely video was telecined then edited/spliced afterwards with no regards on how it can be IVTC later)


... It seems I might getting this wrong ... darn ... need to research and test some more

EDIT: i think i got what wer was saying ... just tested case (3) and MadVR played it at 29.97 instead of 23.976 ... another headache to solve now :|

[wer]

Sorry tij, I misled you.  Something you said reminded me.

MadVR will switch to 23.976 fps for FILM mode, IF you have enabled display rate changing in MadVR.  I have that turned off, because MadVR has problems changing the display back correctly when playback ends, so it's been years since I saw MadVR auto-change the frame rate for film mode, so I was talking about my configuration, sorry.

Regarding your points:

1. This is correct.  Some TV shows are this way, but some TV shows are actually filmed (on film at 24fps).

2. I think Hard-telecined content cannot be "fixed" by IVTC (film mode) because the frames have been altered, so you need video mode for hard-telecined content.  Hard-telecined content has essentially been mangled into interlaced video by the DVD mastering process, so you have to treat it as such.  A small percentage of movies are treated this way. One example is "No Way Out" with Kevin Costner.

3. Soft telecine is exactly what Film-mode is for; it drops the duplicated frames. This essentially results in 29.97fps video having 23.976fps worth of frames.  Almost all movies on DVD are this way.

I've read several times on doom9 that MadVR/LAV will actually never auto-select FILM mode, and that this option in the settings is just misleading. If deinterlacing is automatically activated, it will be video mode, and if you want film mode, you have to force it, either through the file name or through a profile rule.  This is consistent with what I have seen.

Hendrik could probably comment definitively on this since LAV is his...

[wer]

EDIT: i think i got what wer was saying ... just tested case (3) and MadVR played it at 29.97 instead of 23.976 ... another headache to solve now :|

This is easy to fix, actually.

Madshi once said that hard-telecine cannot be detected. (In other words, after the hard-telecine process, it IS interlaced video, so you just need to leave video deinterlacing on and accept it.)

However, soft-telecine can be detected.  MadVR shows this through the "repeated frames" line.  If you play soft-telecined material at a 29.97 (or 59.94) display rate, you will see the "repeated frames" count constantly increasing" (it increases by 6/sec at 29.97, and by 12/sec at 59.94).

So if you see that repeated frames count increasing, that's the tip-off it's soft-telecine. This is what I was trying to explain to the OP.  If you have MadVR doing the display mode changing, forcing FILM mode will turn on decimation and switch to 23.976.  If you have MC doing the display rate changing (as I do), then set the FPS tag to 23.976, and you'll get the correct frame rate in MadVR, although you might still need to force film mode on.

Make sense?

[tij]

2. I think Hard-telecined content cannot be "fixed" by IVTC (film mode) because the frames have been altered, so you need video mode for hard-telecined content.  Hard-telecined content has essentially been mangled into interlaced video by the DVD mastering process, so you have to treat it as such.  A small percentage of movies are treated this way. One example is "No Way Out" with Kevin Costner.

One of the reason I start slow process of replacing DVD with BluRay ... this interlacing stuff is driving me nuts.

IVTC can work on Hard-telecine theoretically ... if video was put on DVD right after telecine, it should work ... problem is that most production start editing on telecined video ... cutting/splicing resulting in loss of key fields

Futurama PAL DVD seems to be example of postproduction on telecined content ... can play that on both video and film mode ... both modes generate artifacts ... video mode generating lots of small artifacts ... film mode generating big artifacts at some scene changes

Futurama NTSC DVD is even stranger ... mixing progressive with hard telecine

Just nightmare ... i prefer if things works at film mode though ... gives me more time to apply better upscaling

EDIT: Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season 1 PAL is Hard-Telecined ... IVTC works great on it (rare example)

[wer]

For the content I've tried, the artifacts after trying to IVTC hard-telecine are more objectionable to me than the ones you get with video mode deinterlacing.  But it's personal taste I guess.

The most annoying TV content I've personally encountered is the Ken Burns series "Baseball".  It intermixes filmed (24fps progressive content) with video-taped TV broadcast material.  There is no single deinterlacing setting for MadVR that works perfectly for the entire episode.   

[tij]

I know exactly what you mean ... whatta mess

and lots of stuff i like is only available on DVD