INTERACT FORUM

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: JR (26) sounds different on Windows and Linux machines  (Read 2443 times)

chrisc

  • Junior Woodchuck
  • **
  • Posts: 91
JR (26) sounds different on Windows and Linux machines
« on: December 25, 2020, 01:37:29 am »

An electronics scientist told me about this.  I did not believe it was possible until I tried it

I have Windows 10 installed on a laptop
So I purchased a 128Gb SSD and installed (at his suggestion) Ubuntu Studio 20.06 on it, plus Strawberry Media Player (again at his suggestion) and JR26 for Linux

Then the SSD was placed into a USB3 enclosure.  This way, using the boot menu, it can be booted into Windows or Linux

Lo and behold, there was a noticeable difference.   More clarity, frequency balance and bass accuracy from the Linux machine. 

Strawberry Media Player and JR didn't make any difference, they reproduced music just the same

To ensure I was not imagining things, or the glass of wine was having an effect, I had two experienced listener friends around and we spent 3 hours listening to a variety of music.  The overall impression was as I described.  They also detected differences in nuance that I had missed

Looking at the Playback options in JRiver, there are 32 different permutations available.  Of these 22 do not work (no sound) and the others appear neither to add nor detract from the reproduction quality

The actual music is stored on a NAS connected via a LAN cable, so both OS retrieve the data from the same source

The DAC and amp I'm using is a Devialet with Eminent Technology planar ribbon speakers

To perform a further check, a folder was created on the local drives with music copied into it and the laptop (a Dell i7 with 16Gb RAM) taken to another friend who has Krell amplification and Martin Logan electrostats.  He has carefully set up his audio system and believes in expensive cables.   The differences were found to be the same

Are we all imaging things?  The two friends who came along initially thought I was having them on, but after a few mins of back and forth comparison, confirmed it. 

To be more transparent, I did not tell them which OS was being used and from where they were sitting, they could not see what I was doing either.  I know people often "want" or expect to hear a difference, even when it is not there
Logged
If music be the food of love, play on

wer

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 2640
Re: JR (26) sounds different on Windows and Linux machines
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2020, 03:39:41 am »

Yours was an interesting post and raises interesting concepts, but there's no way to answer your question. I'll also say countless people have been debating this for years, largely without evidence. Google "audiophile linux vs windows".

There are any number of real factors that could account for real audible differences. They are legion, so I won't bother listing any.

Your overall description, however, is so vague, scientifically speaking, as to be meaningless. It's another anecdote. If you want to make claims that stand up to any kind of scrutiny or analysis, you have to scrupulously document the configuration and control the environment. Since you have mentioned nothing touching on those issues, there are no conclusions to be drawn from your anecdote.

Looking at the Playback options in JRiver, there are 32 different permutations available.  Of these 22 do not work (no sound) and the others appear neither to add nor detract from the reproduction quality

This concerns me though. I'm not sure what "playback options" you refer to. But the over simplification of this statement is troublesome. Because if someone was referring to the MC audio options than control interaction with the audio device and how audio data is formatted, and that someone believed those settings do not affect playback quality, then that someone bluntly doesn't know what they're talking about, at all, and everything they say on the subject has little credibility, and they need expert assistance. Or maybe you were talking about trivialities, like repeat, which indeed have no effect on playback quality. You didn't specify.

But as I said, there are any number of real factors that could cause real, non-imaginary, audible differences. You might have the systems configured differently without knowing it; your DAC might be highly susceptible to jitter differences (some are, some aren't); a badly engineered component might be spewing or receiving RF leakage that is causing data corruption; a badly designed driver might be resampling audio when it shouldn't.... The list is endless.

But if there are real differences, that is easy to assess. If there is an audible difference, it can be measured.

With the aid of your "electronics scientist" get an audio analyzer, and measure the audio data coming out of both Operating Systems. They will either have differences, or they will be identical. If they are different, then those differences can be analyzed and hopefully explained. If they are identical, then the audible differences you hear are either caused by a downstream component, or they are unreal.

It is often thought that any perceived differences in sound that are unreal, in that they do not actually exist as real-world forces, are imaginary (expectation bias, placebo effect, etc). But this is not true. Often ignored is the complicated physical interface that exists between the real (the sound waves hitting your eardrum) and the perceived (what you hear). And that is the brain and nervous system. The human brain is a lump of jello. Nothing is repeatable: the neurons fire differently every time something happens, guaranteed, even if the stimulus is identical. The perceived frequency response of your ears changes with your blood pressure, your mood, your physical position, the temperature, the time of day, whether you have the sniffles, your medication, everything. Including what you're listening to. And that's just for starters.

The concept is easily demonstrated in a way not subject to debate: someone who squirts water into their ear canal will experience a definite alteration in what they hear, not an imaginary one. And yet, the sound coming out of their speakers will be exactly the same.

Audiophiles often claim "everything makes a difference". They think that if they hear it, it is real, and it must be due to some external component, like a green marker on a CD, or a rock, because they believe their own perception to be invariant. But it is not: their own perception is highly variable (you at least partially recognize this, in your reference to a glass of wine). That doesn't mean all the differences they hear are unreal, but it means some of them are: they are differences in perception only, not in external reality.

I don't know what you heard, or think you heard.  Try measuring it. If it is as consistent as you say, you will be able to measure a difference somewhere. Then analyze it, and contribute to the community by explaining it.

Contrary to how it might sound, I actually have zero interest in debating with people things that they think make their system sound better, whether that's cables, or DACs, or amps, or green felt markers; people should please themselves. But if you can actually demonstrate and quantify output differences between operating systems over the same hardware when both claim bit perfect reproduction, that would be very interesting indeed.
Logged

marko

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 8933
Re: JR (26) sounds different on Windows and Linux machines
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2020, 04:40:59 am »

Quote
The perceived frequency response of your ears changes with your blood pressure, your mood, your physical position, the temperature, the time of day, whether you have the sniffles, your medication, everything. Including what you're listening to. And that's just for starters.

'tis true. Happens a lot when you're applying ratings to tracks, then later on, different day, month, whatever, the track comes on and you ask yourself what is that track doing in this rating group... It's really weird, in an interesting kind of way, and why I've moved to a genre based way of random track playback rather than rating. Took me three years plus to sort out the genre tags, but the experience is infinitely better for it.

nathanCFD

  • Recent member
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Re: JR (26) sounds different on Windows and Linux machines
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2020, 03:04:17 pm »

Looking at the Playback options in JRiver, there are 32 different permutations available.  Of these 22 do not work (no sound) and the others appear neither to add nor detract from the reproduction quality

Hi Chrisc; do you mean the driver device options; if so, then yes - the Linux Audio breaks devices up differently than Windows audio; I've been messing around with mine for days on a Linux Mint HTPC.  I think I may post a topic on that as well and ask for help :) 
Logged

Awesome Donkey

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 7359
  • The color of Spring...
Re: JR (26) sounds different on Windows and Linux machines
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2020, 03:09:19 pm »

MC on Windows (using WASAPI Exclusive, which is direct) and MC on Arch Linux (using ALSA via hw: output, which is direct) sound exactly the same to me. Which is exactly what I'd expect because both are outputting bit-perfect audio.

If it sounds different, make sure one or the other isn't going through the system mixer and resampling. On Linux make sure you're using the hw: or front: output for your DAC.
Logged
I don't work for JRiver... I help keep the forums safe from Viagra and other sources of sketchy pharmaceuticals.

Windows 11 2023 Update (23H2) 64-bit + Ubuntu 23.10 Mantic Minotaur 64-bit | Windows 11 2023 Update (23H2) 64-bit (Intel N305 Fanless NUC 16GB RAM/256GB NVMe SSD)
JRiver Media Center 32 (Windows + Linux) | Topping D50s DAC | Edifier R2000DB Bookshelf Speakers

chrisc

  • Junior Woodchuck
  • **
  • Posts: 91
Re: JR (26) sounds different on Windows and Linux machines
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2020, 03:20:19 am »

I see I am dodging bullets here, so will rather stay away

Apologies for stepping on some toes
Logged
If music be the food of love, play on

Ianmac

  • Recent member
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: JR (26) sounds different on Windows and Linux machines
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2020, 04:01:41 am »

Dont stay away.

I came across your post as I am thinking of trying Linux. I have used MC for some time and am a very happy with what it provides for me. A few years ago I rebuilt my audio system and moved to a build close to the CAPS 3 unit on the Computer audiophile forum. Fitted an aftermarket USB card and run Motherboard USB and SSD from individual Linear supplies. Running JRiver, the resulting audio SQ was very good.

Some time later I started to read about software packages that claimed to improve the "audio " performance of Windows. I bought one and was very surprised to find an improvement in my system.

The package I bought claimed to reduce the unnecessary activity that was going on inside the Windows software.

Is there a possibility that there is much less unnecessary activity in  Linux ?  From what I read I would assume so - I'm far from being a software expert.

I am not a fan of the Bit Perfect explanation relating to audio SQ. The final signal processing from digital bits takes place in the DAC. Its when it decides when the "bit perfect" signal its presented with is a 1 or a 0. A digital signal is an analogue signal  switching between two voltage levels. The important parameters are the accuracy of the risetime edge on the move from the low to the high voltage level and the accuracy of the period between each successive edge. 

Electronic noise can affect both. The more electronic activity the more noise. The more processing the more electronic activity.  Is this a reason one can hear a difference?

I have since built a Renderer and using JRiver and my old Caps 3 motherboard as a Server. Im currently using W10 and am interested in trying Linux, my reason for visiting this part of the forum.

I'm not a computer expert and wary of the "Coding" required to use Linux when things go wrong but I'm warming towards giving it a try.
Logged

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 71328
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: JR (26) sounds different on Windows and Linux machines
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2020, 06:44:24 am »

Closing this now to slow the spread of misinformation.
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up