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Author Topic: DSD multichannel file play through DLNA Renderer problem  (Read 4741 times)

vcastceo

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DSD multichannel file play through DLNA Renderer problem
« on: February 18, 2021, 06:02:11 am »

I use OPPO 203 as DLNA renderer. It has special DoP board which can send DSD stream to stereo DAC directly through Coaxial, with DoP signal, also it can play multichannel DSD file through HDMI.
Today I use .dsf stereo files and multichannel files (3CH / 5.1CH) and play it through MC 27 (Windows and Linux), with OPPO 203.
Stereo files is no problem at all. It can play both DAC and HDMI.
Multichannel does not. It can play through DAC without all other channels but only left/right.
But when I change to HDMI, it does not play any sound at all.

I was curious, that I save files on USB stick and play it directly on OPPO 203, Stereo/Multichannel both works without any problem.

My DLNA settings on MC27 network section set to No convert .dsf and sacd files, and also keep original channel so MC will not down/upmix any file.

I found this problem first since I use DLNA feature, like 6 months period. I never try to play multichannel file through DLNA.
Is there any solution for fix this? Or, very unlikely, did I miss something or get wrong setting my DLNA DSP studio?  ?
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HaWi

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Re: DSD multichannel file play through DLNA Renderer problem
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2021, 01:19:46 pm »

I used to try to do the same thing, i.e. playing multi channel audio via DLNA and could not get it to work. I came to the belief that DLNA cannot render mch audio but two channels only. The only way I found to play mch audio from my iMac or my RPi4 to my Marantz SR-7007 was through HDMI. However, if you do find a DLNA renderer that can do mch I'd love to hear about it.
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RPi4/8GB, Bullseye (Plasma) on SSD | JRMark (31.0.80 64 bit): 1583 (OC=2GHz, OV=6)
MacBookPro (2013), 2.6 GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7, MacOS 11.7.10 | JRMark (version 31.0.80 64 bit): 3692
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vcastceo

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Re: DSD multichannel file play through DLNA Renderer problem
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2021, 06:53:59 pm »

I used to try to do the same thing, i.e. playing multi channel audio via DLNA and could not get it to work. I came to the belief that DLNA cannot render mch audio but two channels only. The only way I found to play mch audio from my iMac or my RPi4 to my Marantz SR-7007 was through HDMI. However, if you do find a DLNA renderer that can do mch I'd love to hear about it.

Glad to hear from someone who have same headache like mine.  ;D
I tested again, with DLNA and without DLNA.
There is actually 3 ways to do play audio through network on my OPPO 203 (Renderer).

1. Use JRiver on Raspberrypi / PC to push stream to Renderer -> stereo : work, mch : not work
2. Use OPPO network play menu -> Select Raspberrypi / PC DLNA -> stereo : work, mch : not work
3. USE OPPO network play menu -> Select SMB (Shared Drive) -> browse files and play -> stereo : work, mch: work

According to this result, DLNA also should be work, since DLNA don't convert anything but original DSD format send bitstream to renderer.
What I have doubt, result 1) and 2), is that both methods uses JRiver as streamer should have some problem or bug.

I am waiting, JRiver will respond this issue whatever answer - possible or impossible.  :P
Hope to fix this soon.
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wer

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Re: DSD multichannel file play through DLNA Renderer problem
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2021, 07:26:45 pm »

According to this result, DLNA also should be work, since DLNA don't convert anything but original DSD format send bitstream to renderer.

That's not a valid assumption. There are lots of receivers that do multichannel DSD when they can directly open the file (like on a USB stick or NAS) but not via DLNA; they're restricted to 2-channel only via DLNA. For example, the results you described above are exactly the results you'd get from a Marantz receiver or processor.

Moreover, if you haven't configured any conversion into the DLNA server, it is not sending a bitstream, it is sending the file. If the file is multichannel, the Oppo gets a multichannel file. What it does with that file is up to the Oppo.

Incidentally, a simple google search (not restricted to JRiver) reveals a lot of people complaining they can't get their Oppo to do multichannel DSD over DLNA.  I see no one saying they got it to work.

Contact Oppo tech support and get accurate information about your device's capabilities.

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whoareyou

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Re: DSD multichannel file play through DLNA Renderer problem
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2021, 09:07:09 pm »

I used my Oppo 205 for quite some time - just like this.  Multichannel DSD over network. So did a couple of friends.  The audio section is different from 203, but I thought 203 / 205 support same audio formats over network.   Does manual say 203 supports this  (I did not check manual)?

205 only shortcoming for me was lack of gapless playback over DLNA.  Otherwise plays everything over network flawlessly.

So try the following:
Turn off the bitstreaming (does DoP even support multichannel?),  You just need to send the file to the Oppo.  If I remember correctly, bitstreaming is not the correct setting for this and you should not be sending DoP.

First try seting format to "original" and make no output changes.  See if that works.   Again, I'm not positive, but I thought the 203 supports pretty much any format out there.

Most likely, no need to convert anything to / from a different format unless you know there is something that Oppo does not support.

PS - This was from a windows machine.  Not sure if there is difference with Linux.

Good luck
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vcastceo

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Re: DSD multichannel file play through DLNA Renderer problem
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2021, 09:21:52 pm »

That's not a valid assumption. There are lots of receivers that do multichannel DSD when they can directly open the file (like on a USB stick or NAS) but not via DLNA; they're restricted to 2-channel only via DLNA. For example, the results you described above are exactly the results you'd get from a Marantz receiver or processor.

Ok, maybe OPPO also has those kind of restrictions. However according to your explanation on below, JRiver will send "FILE" if I do not convert anything.

Moreover, if you haven't configured any conversion into the DLNA server, it is not sending a bitstream, it is sending the file. If the file is multichannel, the Oppo gets a multichannel file. What it does with that file is up to the Oppo.

When I get file from my network disk through SMB protocol, it plays mutichannel without any problem. So USB stick is out of question.
If JRiver send just "File" as you explain, it should be same "File" which I get via SMB protocol, right?
Then it will play multichannel without problem, too. That I don't understand...

As you can see "whoareyou" post, OPPO 205 can play multichannel via DLNA. 203 has exactly same capabilities like 205...

I used my Oppo 205 for quite some time - just like this.  Multichannel DSD over network. So did a couple of friends.  The audio section is different from 203, but I thought 203 / 205 support same audio formats over network.   Does manual say 203 supports this  (I did not check manual)?

205 only shortcoming for me was lack of gapless playback over DLNA.  Otherwise plays everything over network flawlessly.

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wer

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Re: DSD multichannel file play through DLNA Renderer problem
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2021, 09:22:37 pm »

I found a site that said different Oppo models supported different formats. The 205 supported the most.  But that site was silent on this exact issue.

https://help.nativedsd.com/en/articles/94445-playing-dsd-on-oppo-machines-explained

But it did say this:
Quote
"The Oppo 203 will play DSD64 Stereo and Multichannel, and also DSD128 Stereo as maximum, and only from a USB storage drive connected to the unit. "

Not very well written.

So again, I suggest contacting Oppo to be sure, rather than spending a lot of time chasing something that might not exist.

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vcastceo

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Re: DSD multichannel file play through DLNA Renderer problem
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2021, 09:28:51 pm »

I used my Oppo 205 for quite some time - just like this.  Multichannel DSD over network. So did a couple of friends.  The audio section is different from 203, but I thought 203 / 205 support same audio formats over network.   Does manual say 203 supports this  (I did not check manual)?

205 only shortcoming for me was lack of gapless playback over DLNA.  Otherwise plays everything over network flawlessly.

So try the following:
Turn off the bitstreaming (does DoP even support multichannel?),  You just need to send the file to the Oppo.  If I remember correctly, bitstreaming is not the correct setting for this and you should not be sending DoP.

First try seting format to "original" and make no output changes.  See if that works.   Again, I'm not positive, but I thought the 203 supports pretty much any format out there.

Most likely, no need to convert anything to / from a different format unless you know there is something that Oppo does not support.

PS - This was from a windows machine.  Not sure if there is difference with Linux.

Good luck

Thanks for your confirmation that 205 can play multichannel audio via DLNA but not gapless playback.
I don't think that gapless playback is possible because JRiver send each file to file when play is start. So there need time to send and receive through network, so gapless play is impossible (that I believe because of this flow).

Yes, 203 / 205 has same capabilities for play "file" no matter it is came from USB stick or External Drive or Network Drive through SMB.
According to wer, 203 must play multichannel through DLNA / HDMI if JRiver is sending "File" to OPPO.

Moreover, if you haven't configured any conversion into the DLNA server, it is not sending a bitstream, it is sending the file. If the file is multichannel, the Oppo gets a multichannel file. What it does with that file is up to the Oppo.

I think my speculation is correct, Anything looks or logically wrong, please pointing me out.  ;)
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wer

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Re: DSD multichannel file play through DLNA Renderer problem
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2021, 09:30:51 pm »

Vcast, again, you're making assumptions based on the belief that if it does one thing it must do another, and that it must be the same as the 205.

The first part is demonstrably false, whether you understand or not. The second part, I don't know about, and you don't know either: you're presuming.

If you won't contact Oppo to confirm, and you're sure you're right, then you should not have any trouble at all finding posts somewhere of someone saying they've done multichannel DSD via DLNA on the 203.

Or even better, since you seem to be saying it's an MC problem, you should not have any trouble getting it to work straightaway with another DLNA server like bubbleupnp.

If you can prove that it works on the 203 but just not with MC, then hopefully JRiver will address it.

Your "according to wer" is wrong. You didn't understand. I said the Oppo would receive a multichannel file, not that it could play it.

The 203 and 205 are different. They have different DACs. For example, the 205 supports MQA, the 203 does not.  I suggest you find out if this is another difference.

Good luck.
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vcastceo

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Re: DSD multichannel file play through DLNA Renderer problem
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2021, 10:27:43 pm »

All right, I will say something in fact.
My oppo can play DSD64 stereo and multichannel via USB stick and network drive.
Network drive is linux or window base, doesnít matter. I now did and enjoy it.
Only 205 and 203 different is DSD128. I donít use DSD128 for test.

So, I not chasing anything which is you said that might not exist.

But my investigation through google said that OPPO 203 also Roon ready, and canít play multichannel DSD through Roon. They are looking for which part is block the playing multichannel DSD and now oppo is out of this business.

Nobody can answer which part has problem, so I just use oppo media app to play multichannel DSD from my network drive, it is no problem.
But I donít want use 2 different app for enjoy music, that is why I post this question at first hand. If I donít use JRiver Remote app and only use OPPO media app, I have no problem at all both stereo and multichannel DSD file through network.

One more thing I need to add:
My OPPO 203 has no internal DAC board. I use Vanity24HD which is capable of send stereo/multichannel DSD format to External DAC with DoP encapsulation through Coaxial cable. It can decode all kind of DSD file. So my 203 capability is not same level of 205.
Actually DSD format will not send any DSD format to external DAC but only through HDMI. It is limitations for all device which is copyright restrictions. Vanity203HD is break this limitations and do the thing way around to archive play DSD file through external DAC.
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whoareyou

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Re: DSD multichannel file play through DLNA Renderer problem
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2021, 08:00:06 am »

Yup.  As @wer said they are different.  I was not trying to imply they were the same, only that the formats they playback are very similar.   Completely different audio sections.

My main points:
 I am pretty sure that the 205 does not support DoP over DLNA, so that bitstreaming option should be off. 
 Try first without converting formats and if that works, add conversions later and see if they break anything.
 The reason why Oppo cannot do gapless over DLNA is related to hardware of the Oppo.  It does not support it.  People constantly asked for it, but it was not possible.

 
Quote
My OPPO 203 has no internal DAC board. I use Vanity24HD ....

Does that mean the Vanity24 replaced the internal board of the Oppo?

Here are some helpful links for the Oppo, but Oppo support is still around.  They should answer you quickly.

http://watershade.net/wmcclain/UDP-203-faq.html
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/official-oppo-udp-203-owners-thread.2676801/#post-48903601


Edit .... Going from the wiki link for oppo
https://www.oppodigital.com/KnowledgeBase.aspx?prodID=UDP-203

Under the 203 supported audio formats

USB Hard Drive and Network (SMB, NFS, and DLNA): Stereo and multi-channel PCM up to 192 kHz. Stereo and multi-channel DSD up to 5.4 MHz (DSD128).

It sure seems as though it should work. 
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vcastceo

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Re: DSD multichannel file play through DLNA Renderer problem
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2021, 07:43:19 pm »

Yup.  As @wer said they are different.  I was not trying to imply they were the same, only that the formats they playback are very similar.   Completely different audio sections.

My main points:
 I am pretty sure that the 205 does not support DoP over DLNA, so that bitstreaming option should be off. 
 Try first without converting formats and if that works, add conversions later and see if they break anything.
 The reason why Oppo cannot do gapless over DLNA is related to hardware of the Oppo.  It does not support it.  People constantly asked for it, but it was not possible.

 
Does that mean the Vanity24 replaced the internal board of the Oppo?

Here are some helpful links for the Oppo, but Oppo support is still around.  They should answer you quickly.

http://watershade.net/wmcclain/UDP-203-faq.html
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/official-oppo-udp-203-owners-thread.2676801/#post-48903601


Edit .... Going from the wiki link for oppo
https://www.oppodigital.com/KnowledgeBase.aspx?prodID=UDP-203

Under the 203 supported audio formats

USB Hard Drive and Network (SMB, NFS, and DLNA): Stereo and multi-channel PCM up to 192 kHz. Stereo and multi-channel DSD up to 5.4 MHz (DSD128).

It sure seems as though it should work.

Thanks for your info.
AVSforum is the valuable site which I usually check.

I know that the 203 has a bit different then 205; That's why I upgrade my 203, with Linear power, Femto Clock, VanityHD, etc.
Yes, my 203 do not have normal DAC board which has 8 channel RCA Analog output, instead, I have 8 channel Coaxial Digital out which is capable of covert DSD signal to DoP signal.

I don't use DoP bitstream conversion, actually I don't do any conversion but convert to PCM24 for flac, wav, mp3.
.dsf and sacd format files are just send to renderer "as it is".

Now, I don't ask anymore about multichannel DSD playback through DLNA, because I will use OPPO media app for pull files from NAS by SMB protocol. It is OPPO's basic feature, and it solve my problem and I can enjoy listen multichannel DSD.

One thing I did not know was that the gapless playback is caused by hardware limitations of 203...?!!  :o
This is something disturbing information. It is not subject I should mention on this forum though. I will search and look at 203 owner's thread. Thanks for your info, really appreciate.
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whoareyou

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Re: DSD multichannel file play through DLNA Renderer problem
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2021, 09:35:01 pm »

I believe the limitation ss only over DLNA.  I *believe* SMB should be gapless.  You'll find out soon enough :)
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vcastceo

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Re: DSD multichannel file play through DLNA Renderer problem
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2021, 04:55:58 am »

I believe the limitation ss only over DLNA.  I *believe* SMB should be gapless.  You'll find out soon enough :)

According to OPPO knowledge Base, 203/205 has same capabilities concerning network play.
They all support DSD stereo and multichannel through SMB, NSF, DLNA. It should be work then.
But in reality, DSD multichannel is not working with DLNA (I don't know other DLNA server but only JRiver). Who's fault? No one can said any.
Because OPPO 203 is discontinued and nobody there can pinpoint out who's fault. Sad story...  :'(

I found this info from here:
https://www.oppodigital.com/KnowledgeBase.aspx?prodID=UDP-203

Attachment is capture picture, for easy way to see it.
I'll look all the info on 203 owner's thread....
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Dennis in FL

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wer

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Re: DSD multichannel file play through DLNA Renderer problem
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2021, 12:56:34 pm »

...(I don't know other DLNA server but only JRiver)...
Yes you do. I named one, BubbleUPnP, in my earlier post.

Or:
https://tinyurl.com/2aoeu7gx
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stevemac

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Re: DSD multichannel file play through DLNA Renderer problem
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2021, 02:36:33 am »

maybe try AndrewFG's Media Redender Analyser and report back what Oppo is capable of

https://www.whitebear.ch/dmra

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thecrow

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Re: DSD multichannel file play through DLNA Renderer problem
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2021, 02:07:29 pm »

I know this is an old thread.
But for the record I have an Oppo 203 and I am able to stream multichannel PCM and DSD to it over DLNA using JRiver.
The 203 even passes the DSD on to my AV amp as DSD through HDMI.
So both the 203 and JRiver are capable of doing this.
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Dennis in FL

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Re: DSD multichannel file play through DLNA Renderer problem
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2021, 06:55:41 am »

Which AVR receiver do you have?
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thecrow

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Re: DSD multichannel file play through DLNA Renderer problem
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2021, 02:20:47 pm »

I have a Marantz 7012, which will accept DSD from a SACD player over HDMI.
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zender

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Re: DSD multichannel file play through DLNA Renderer problem
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2021, 08:38:00 am »

What are your settings to play DLNA to the 203 via jriver? 'cause I can't seem to get there.
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zender

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Re: DSD multichannel file play through DLNA Renderer problem
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2021, 08:57:10 am »

Ok, just got it. It can play DSF/DFF files but not SACD ISO
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bob

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Re: DSD multichannel file play through DLNA Renderer problem
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2021, 04:45:33 pm »

You can't play an SACD ISO on the Oppo over the network. It doesn't support that (I have one).
You can only play that on a disc or USB stick.
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