Topic: clicks right before start of new track from .ISO (SACD) (Read 5526 times)

AGAWA · « **on:** March 30, 2021, 01:38:13 pm »

As in subject.
I get click just before new track starts. It occurs when playing directly form .ISO (rip from SACD).
FLAC MCH files play with no click at all. (just tested 6ch Abbey Road)
It's particularly annoying on classical music.

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #1 on:** March 30, 2021, 02:44:56 pm »

Does it happen with sequential tracks, or when playing tracks from different albums, or when playing DSD after immediately playing PCM? Or all the time regardless?

If you hear the click when playing DSD immediately after playing PCM, that's probably from the DAC. It's a known quirk with some/most DACs that happen when switching from PCM to DSD or DSD to PCM. It can even happen if you're switching sample rates on PCM with some DACs. In addition if you're converting DSD to PCM (or PCM to DSD), you'll likely notice issues like this as well. If it's happening all the time, even with sequential tracks, that *shouldn't* happen so if that's the case you might need to describe your setup and settings with as much detail as possible.

Now, if you're DSD bitstreaming, sequential tracks *should* play fine without a pop/click. But if you're using DSP Studio > Output Format and have Output Encoding set to DSD, you're converting everything to DSD and you will hear clicks/pops when doing this.

AGAWA · « **Reply #2 on:** March 31, 2021, 03:28:05 am »

I have longer experience playing music files through Apogee Duet with Macbook and I'm familiar with all sort of situations when click can be expected.

Macbook Pro Catalina (latest)
JRiver MC 26 Mac
Apogee Duet : used in two configs, 2ch and 4ch (I use 4 speaker setup)
Core Audio - no changes to default
Bitstreaming - none (has to be set like this, setting bitstreaming to DSD gives funny noise)
DSP - set accordingly to 2 ch or mch.

In this particular case I played ISO (rip from SACD) - 2 ch Bach Piano Concertos vol.2 , Sony. This is 2ch only SACD.
So DSP set to2 speakers, 2 ch, no SUB. No downmixing, but this is not relevant here.
Right before each track there is a click, album played as a whole, full playing list of all tracks.

I did not hear any clicks while testing MC , on different formats, and I was surprised to find them on SACD ISO.

Immediately after I went to play BR rip of Abbey Road (full sequence) and no clicks whatsoever.

Just checked in MC27 on Windows, through headphones directly from Windows audio, same thing, clicks just before start of the track.

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #3 on:** March 31, 2021, 03:52:00 am »

Quote from: AGAWA on March 31, 2021, 03:28:05 am

Bitstreaming - none (has to be set like this, setting bitstreaming to DSD gives funny noise)
DSP - set accordingly to 2 ch or mch.

This is probably why you're getting pops and clicks. Because the Apogee Duet doesn't support DSD playback at all (so DSD bitstreaming isn't possible) MC has to convert DSD to PCM, which is a lossy conversion, to playback the SACD ISOs. There's a known quirk that when doing DSD to PCM conversions in MC that pops/clicks are usually introduced. For example with my Topping D50s, if I set MC to convert DSD to PCM instead of using DSD bitstreaming, there's always a pop/click at the beginning of each track. And with certain content (like the two Pink Floyd SACD rips) this can be jarring where the audio tracks are supposed to seamlessly segue with each other.

Now this could be argued whether or not this is a bug in MC as there is also a longstanding issue in MC where pops/clicks are introduced at the beginning of tracks when using MC to convert either tracks from a SACD ISO or PCM to DSF files (that also resembles an old issue in sacd_extract where the very same thing would happen) whereas converting to DFF files doesn't result in pops/clicks at the beginning of tracks.

Some things you might try are pre-converting your SACD ISOs to separate FLAC files but you may still encounter the issue. You could also try using an app outside of MC, like dbPoweramp, to convert SACD/DSD files to FLAC files and see if the pops/clicks are still present. If they are, maybe it's an issue with the SACD ISOs? Nonetheless, if you had a DSD-capable DAC and could use DSD bitstreaming, you probably wouldn't have this issue at all.

AGAWA · « **Reply #4 on:** March 31, 2021, 04:19:59 am »

but what will you say about MC27 in Windows doing the same thing? I'm not using external DAC.
Just plain Windows.
I will later check playback of DSF album and report.

AGAWA · « **Reply #5 on:** March 31, 2021, 04:24:17 am »

for example, Audirvana sets DoP for DSD files being sent to Apogee Duet.
I will argue with clicks being result of conversion to PCM,
Clicks are a symptom of switching to new track with change of format, while there is no change of format between the tracks,

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #6 on:** March 31, 2021, 04:27:53 am »

The OS doesn't matter, whether it be Windows, macOS, Linux, etc. It'll still do it. Also from all the stuff I read, the Duet doesn't support DSD or DoP, it only supports up to 24-bit/192 kHz, unless I'm missing something here?

Also even though clicks/pops happen when changing sample rates with DACs for example, if I don't DSD bitstream with my DAC it'll always pop/click with every track no matter what on all OSes.

AGAWA · « **Reply #7 on:** March 31, 2021, 08:47:22 am »

BTW,
searching for info on Duet I've come across some interesting reading:
pls find the link:
https://www.h-ear.audio/2018/12/05/apogee-unfiltered-and-straight-from-the-source/

Will test DSF album and advise, and what I see perhaps I have to look for DSD capable DAC.
But Duet give so much joy?

AGAWA · « **Reply #8 on:** March 31, 2021, 10:55:11 am »

Just listening to MCH DSf album ( converted from ISO),
Only initial click( as one expects), when system sets , and no clicks between the tracks.
Listening in two scenarios : 1. with JRSS mixing
2. no down or up mixing
Album is Vivaldi Opus 111 in 4.0
ANTONIO VIVALDI - VIVALDI Vespri per l'assunzione di maria vergine

No clicks between tracks.
I will argue your standing.

There is a problem in JRiver MC how it treats consecutive tracks in ISO album.
Each track is treated as new entity and resets DAC and hence click.

Once we are inside the ISO , there should be no change in DAC setup.
There should be constant flow of new tracks with the same parameters.

AGAWA · « **Reply #9 on:** March 31, 2021, 11:31:30 am »

Imported the same Vivaldi , but ISO now.
No audible clicks.
There are very short or almost no pauses between the tracks.

Bach, as described yesterday has long pauses between the tracks and there is always the click.

And this is possibly the only explanation of the problem. But handling of ISO files by MC has something to do with clicks.

MC is very flexible and I'm close to deciding that this will by my way forward, but trying to solve all and any issues before I switch from silver discs to computer audio.
I'm hard to satisfy with anything else than my now old Sony SACD player.
Would like to see MCH DAC on similar level of SQ at reasonable price. Still old Sony has no competition.

AGAWA · « **Reply #10 on:** March 31, 2021, 01:28:51 pm »

another interesting reading:
https://www.kenrockwell.com/audio/apogee/duet-2.htm
am I right that it employs the same DACs as famous MCh DAC with the 28 number in name?

AGAWA · « **Reply #11 on:** April 01, 2021, 02:59:21 am »

apologies for off topic entries.

Considering all my tests how can you explain different behavior on different albums?
Bach - clicks,
Vivaldi - no clics.
Same system, same DAC.
ISO files.

Maybe there are differences in authoring of the album and MC is good on some and gives clicks on other albums?
It should be matter of investigation and possible correction.
I see no reason why MC should behave differently on different albums. Simply saying, MC should be able to cope with different scenarios (probably of slightly different formats on SACD).

AGAWA · « **Reply #12 on:** April 01, 2021, 02:51:30 pm »

I wonder if JRiver lost interest in solving this issue?
Shall we stay with popular misconcepts?

AGAWA · « **Reply #13 on:** April 01, 2021, 03:35:47 pm »

decided to verify your various speculations by listening through headphones.
2ch from ISO - clicks on Bach and no clicks on Vivaldi. (Core Audio - standard Mac OS audio)
Exactly the same as through Duet.
Hope it helps to see that there is a problem somewhere and it is not in Apogee Duet.

JimH · « **Reply #14 on:** April 01, 2021, 04:00:17 pm »

Quote from: AGAWA on April 01, 2021, 02:51:30 pm

I wonder if JRiver lost interest in solving this issue?
Shall we stay with popular misconcepts?

It's not clear yet if there is a JRiver issue to solve.

AGAWA · « **Reply #15 on:** April 02, 2021, 01:01:16 am »

JimH,
thank you for letting me know that you are on the case.
I will not judge where the fault is but I see that there is a problem.

SW player should behave similarly to HW player.
SACD player is a mix of HW and SW, most part is SW like for example JRiver.
SACD player does not convert ISO to DSF, so I do not accept argument - convert to ISO and you will be good.

Perhaps initial click (when starting to play first track) and proceeding starts are being muted so no clicks are heard form SACD player.
I expect the same form SW player.

Let me summarize : ( I am not taking popular opinions into consideration, want to stick to the facts rather then "somebody soewhere heard something)

1. Click are not OS dependent ( I would say OS and HW )
I ran two tests :
- Windows MC27, ordinary Windows audio, straight to headphones
- Macbook , Catalina, MC26, core audio straight to headphones
the same results: Bach - cliks in both cases
Vivaldi - no clicks in both cases.

I wanted to exclude popular misconcept of DACs producing clicks, this misconcept is being applied to all scenarios and allows to disregard the problem. Yes, I know that clicks are produced by DACs when switching the audio standard, but this should not be extrapolated to all situations.
Problem here, contrary to SACD HW player, is that SACD player can internally control DAC, while SW player has less power to control external DAC. Mute is the cure.

I was surprised initially, when I found that one ISO gives clicks and another one does not. And I started my investigation, playing ISOs, FLACS, DSF converted from the same ISO.

I guess this is all.

Both PC and Mac produce the same results in MC. If this is a problem with both types of computers then MC should take it it into consideration and provide nice solution, like for example muting of audio in short transition period from one track to another. Similarly initial Click when DAC is changing standard could be eliminated at the same time.

Just my thinking,
thank you

ThierryNK · « **Reply #16 on:** April 02, 2021, 11:29:52 am »

Clicks come from sample rates changes in the DAC, depending on DAC and on how the tracks are separated on the ISO.

7 years ago it was the main reason for me to no longer use ISO but only DSF files, with also the reason of tagging that is not included in the file and lost when you change player, and also the heavy usage of DST lossless compression on multichannel ISO that is CPU intensive and lead to dropouts when you use Wifi.

Regards

AGAWA · « **Reply #17 on:** April 03, 2021, 01:07:59 am »

Thierry,
please read carefully before you comment.
There are no changes in standard for DAC between the tracks.
And how will you explain the fact that one album clicks and another not?
I want to dig deeper and find the fault rather than accept popular knowledge.
According to your explanation DSF should also click in some unknown situations.
SACD players do not produce clicks on the said albums and this should be the goal for the software player
cheers

ThierryNK · « **Reply #18 on:** April 03, 2021, 04:54:55 am »

There are a lot of possible reasons of pops and clicks apart sampling change playing ISO. Silence cannot be represented in DSD. SACD are not mastered the same way depending on how this silence is represented (PCM, or not full silence DSD), a lot of SACD players do not decode DSD but convert it to PCM before DAC.

https://dsp.stackexchange.com/questions/35850/how-does-dsd-silence-looks-like
https://patchwork.kernel.org/project/alsa-devel/patch/1481565178-2199-1-git-send-email-nob77413@gmail.com/
http://bitperfectsound.com/?p=250
https://www.avforums.com/threads/do-all-sacd-players-convert-dsd-to-pcm-philips-963sa.238607/
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/universal-players-that-do-not-convert-dsd-to-pcm

I understand very well that you expect JRiver to avoid clicks playing ISO.

But I understand also that it may not be a top level priority as people having the right Playstation to rip SACD (I have 2 of them) are able to rip SACD to separate tracks, but so many people having SACD ISO have illegally downloaded them and do not know how to extract tracks from their ISO.

I know I am not really helping you. Sorry. I will not post anything more on this subject.

Regards

AGAWA · « **Reply #19 on:** April 03, 2021, 11:18:17 am »

nothing illegal;
I own close to thousand SACDs and I'm afraid that sooner or later I will not be able to play them. My player does not convert them to PCM. Good PCM is also very good. I have to take decision if to backup my disks or find another solution.
It will be very difficult to match SQ of my player.

regards, all the best

henning65 · « **Reply #20 on:** April 05, 2021, 07:43:39 am »

Dear @Agawa

I do not own an Apogee Duet. But if @Awesome Donkey points to the fact, that the DAC doesn't support DSD playback - I tent to double check before I vote this down. So I visited the homepage https://apogeedigital.com/products/duet/specifications: There is no mentioning of DSD capacity! To me this is a clear proof, that the DAC does not support direct DSD playback.

If you start from this baseline, I assume you have to rethink your conclusions. And maybe you may consider changing your hardware....

AGAWA · « **Reply #21 on:** April 05, 2021, 12:47:37 pm »

Once again, please read carefully. It has nothing to do with DSD capacity.
I ran the tests without external DAC, just plain audio , in both Windows 10 PC and Macbook pro.
Exactly the same behavior.

I'm currently digging in the field of DACs, but I use 4 channel setup with channel management and this is done in PCM.
Thinking about adding center speaker, and then only DSD capable DAC will make sense. But at what cost? And I doubt it will be much better than humble Apogee. Tested several expensive DACs and none of them came close.

But people here use pro MOTO and are rather happy with results. PCM only.

Anyway, thanks for good word.

ThierryNK · « **Reply #22 on:** April 05, 2021, 12:57:13 pm »

You necessarily have a DAC (or a fully digital amplifier) between any digital track and the speakers.
Even in a computer.
Regards

henning65 · « **Reply #23 on:** April 05, 2021, 01:46:33 pm »

@AGAWA

I'm not a technician nor an expert for audio equipment.
But - I do believe that .iso and the capability to play DSD / .iso most likely has an impact:

Szenario a - your new setup
=> SACD-audio files on computer => .iso with DSD quality
=> computer [JRiver as software] --USB-cable-->DAC--CHINCH-->amplifier-->speakers
The files on your computer have to be transferred to be accepted by your DAC, as your DAC doesn't play DSD (as is). You hear (with some .iso) a ping / beap ...

Szenario b - your "old" setup
=> SACD player--??-->Apogee Duet DAC--CHINCH-->amplifier-->speaker
IF this is your "old" setup and IF your DAC doesn't process DSD files: I guess you simply didn't listend to DSD-qualitiy!

I do believe it might be helpful to first decide, if you want to listen to DSD quality - if yes: another DAC is unavoidable.

I for myself try to decide which DAC to buy. I don't want to spent more than 500€ and I try to avoid "made in China" (but that's me). You may have a look here: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,128850.0.html

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #24 on:** April 05, 2021, 01:51:26 pm »

Multichannel DSD DACs are a different beast altogether. You might want to visit this topic for more info on multichannel DACs: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,126507.0.html

As for the glitches/pops/clicks issue, I still think it's caused by the DSD to PCM conversion and quite possibly the DAC, as it's a known quirk that happens sometimes.

AGAWA · « **Reply #25 on:** April 06, 2021, 01:33:48 am »

we are going in circles.
This is not about DSD, DACs etc.
People heard about some workaround to clicks , appending zeroes or similar sort of actions when converting ISO to DSF.

I've come across SACD ISO that has clicks and another with no clicks at all.
And I'm curious to know and possibly JRiver to find a real cure. JRiver could be the only people who took this seriously and provided solution within MC.

As I said before, I do not see why HW players produce no clicks and SW players do, but only on some SACDs.

Click is there, in the contents of the recording (ISO in this case) and SACD players take care of this.
Why then SW couldn't do the same?

And ISO is not something unusual (that would require earlier conversion and extraction of the file), it can be processed on the fly without the need to extract beforehand. And this is how it was designed to be.

I take your advise seriously, but please try to follow my thinking and maybe JRiver will be the first to cope with the problem.
Just small tweaks in software.

AGAWA · « **Reply #26 on:** April 06, 2021, 02:03:59 am »

And now, let's be serious.
I only hope that the whole discussion will result in product improvement, as it was my only goal in opening this topic.
Please stop giving me lessons as I know exactly what I'm doing.

And now to business:

How I see potential solution;

1. Monitor the file, while it is being pulled from ISO, check for possible differences to the norm in both intro and end of the file. If there are discrepencies, adjust accordingly; this should remove any causes of clicks.
I do not know if clicks are just before the track begins or right at the end of the track.

2. Mute before and at the end; monitoring of the file (point 1 above) should allow to exactly time the mute space.

Just my ideas.

Perhaps this is a problem of initial SACD disks, ISO that does not give clicks was issued several years after Bach.

AGAWA · « **Reply #27 on:** April 06, 2021, 03:38:20 am »

Quote from: Awesome Donkey on April 05, 2021, 01:51:26 pm

Multichannel DSD DACs are a different beast altogether. You might want to visit this topic for more info on multichannel DACs: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,126507.0.html

As for the glitches/pops/clicks issue, I still think it's caused by the DSD to PCM conversion and quite possibly the DAC, as it's a known quirk that happens sometimes.

Awesome Donkey,
It also happens inside PC and MAC, if you read carefully. Not just external DAC.

Known quirk - it looks like this popular knowledge is sufficient to explain everything?

I'm always digging deeper, not taking for granted popular explanations.
My only goal is to work together to improve the product.

If you assume befoerhand that you know what the problem is it will lead nowhere.

So the question now is : will JRiver look into this or should I forget and not bother anymore?
Will appreciate your answer.
cheers,

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #28 on:** April 06, 2021, 04:09:56 am »

Quote from: AGAWA on April 06, 2021, 03:38:20 am

Awesome Donkey,
It also happens inside PC and MAC, if you read carefully. Not just external DAC.

Like I said before, the operating system doesn't matter, it'll happen on all of them whether it be Windows, macOS, Linux, etc.

AGAWA · « **Reply #29 on:** April 06, 2021, 04:54:17 am »

so it's time to act and something about it. In MC.

AGAWA · « **Reply #30 on:** April 08, 2021, 01:40:58 am »

no further activity here?

SACD HW (spinners) players have this problem sorted out. They play from ISO structure and do not allow clicks and pops to arrive at their outputs.
it must have been a design goal, (to fight "the known quirk"), otherwise SACD players wouldn't be sellable.

One can expect similar approach to SW players.

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #31 on:** April 08, 2021, 04:26:40 am »

Well, you're converting DSD to PCM, so there's bound to be quirks and issues, one of which being random pops and clicks at the beginning of tracks, depending on the DAC. SACD discs players are a completely different thing here. For one, they actually support DSD and can play it without converting it to PCM. What you're currently doing is different since you have to convert it so your Duet can play it.

I'll try to explain all of this stuff better with a follow up post...

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #32 on:** April 08, 2021, 05:03:51 am »

Okay, I'll try to explain it the best I can.

Your Apogee Duet doesn't support DSD, it supports PCM up to 24-bit/192kHz. Because of that, all DSD content (including SACD ISOs) need to be converted to PCM to play them back on the Duet but there's a couple things to consider and keep in mind here;

1) DSD to PCM is a lossy conversion, as is PCM to DSD. Both are digital audio formats, but they're different from each other. So any conversion involving DSD goes through PCM and there's data loss involved. This is unavoidable unfortunately, other than obtaining a DSD-capable DAC so no conversion is necessary.

2) Pops and clicks at the beginning of playback can and do happen with many DACs and with some are considered normal, depending on the DAC. This can happen when a DAC changes sample rates (going from 44.1 kHz to 192 kHz). You may be thinking that's it's not switching sample rates here but that's not true. First, it's converting DSD to PCM at the highest sample rate your DAC can handle, which is 192 kHz. Second, it's switching sample rates from whatever the sample rate your system uses by default (which you can check and verify via the Audio MIDI Setup app in macOS) to the max sample rate to playback the DSD to PCM converted file. You can also look at Media Center's audio path (furthest right icon of the three to the right of the seekbar) to verify this. Like for example if you have your macOS default output in the Audio MIDI Setup app set to 2 channel 24-bit 48 kHz that means at idle it'll switch the sample rate (to the highest one available) to playback the converted DSD to PCM content. One thing you could try is setting the Audio MIDI Setup app (and thus your macOS system default) to the max sample rate of your Duet, which is 192kHz, and see if that helps any. The only other potential workaround for this is obtaining a DSD-capable DAC but even then there's no guarantee that'll make the pops and clicks go away, as DACs when switching from PCM to DSD will also pop/click, including mine.

3) Also if you're converting stereo content to multichannel or vice versa, this too can also cause the DAC to pop/click at the beginning, again, depending on the DAC and setup.

4) If pops, clicks and/or playback stops during playback of DSD to PCM content (and not at the beginning), this usually means the hardware isn't powerful enough to handle the DSD to PCM conversion. Media Center converts DSD to PCM on-the-fly, which requires a decently powerful enough PC/Mac to handle it. DSD to PCM conversions, especially multichannel conversions, are some of the most resource intensive tasks Media Center can do, requiring fast enough hardware to handle it. Depending on the Mac and how old it is, you may run into this issue. The only ways around this issue are a) obtaining and using a DSD-capable DAC and avoiding the conversion by DSD bitstreaming or b) pre-convert the music of your SACD ISOs to a format like FLAC, Apple Lossless, APE, etc. and play only the pre-converted files back (and not the SACD ISO itself). Of course, this is a lossy conversion (as mentioned before) but you'll avoid the on-the-fly conversion. And of course, this may not avoid the pops/clicks either, so it's something that'd need tested with your setup.

5) Operating system doesn't matter. It'll happen on Windows, macOS and Linux. And the pops/clicks may not happen all the time either, it can be random. Like if I set Media Center to convert DSD to PCM (instead of bitstreaming it) and I playback the Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon DSF files I have, it'll pop/click at the beginning of playback on the first track, but when letting it play without manually switching tracks it doesn't pop/click when the first track segues into the second track and it's perfectly seamless without any pop/click. But if I manually change tracks to another one, it'll pop/click then. In comparison when DSD bitstreaming it'll pop/click at the beginning of DSD playback (when it switches from PCM to DSD) but unlike when doing the DSD to PCM conversion it doesn't pop/click when manually switching tracks as long as the tracks I'm manually switching to are DSD and not PCM content.

Ultimately, if the pops and clicks, like I suspect, are caused by your DAC switching sample rates, it's not a Media Center issue. In fact all the points above are not Media Center issues at all, so there isn't really anything for JRiver to look at. The easiest way to avoid pops/clicks from DSD to PCM conversions is either avoiding the playback of SACD ISOs completely and finding and playing back only PCM content or getting a DAC that supports DSD so you can enable DSD bitstreaming but even then like I said there's no guarantees as even with my Topping DAC switching from PCM to bitstreamed DSD also results in a pop/click when it's switching modes (just when switching from PCM to DSD, not when manually switching tracks as long as I don't switch back to PCM).

I really hope this helps.

AGAWA · « **Reply #33 on:** April 08, 2021, 06:15:51 am »

thank you for extensive explanation.
I'm more than aware of everything you are raising here.

As I mentioned before, I was surprised to hear one album - Bach Piano Concertos, Perahia, Sony - 2ch only to have clicks a moment before the new track starts and another one , Vivaldi 4.0 without any clicks onside the album.
No changes to the standard happen during playback in both cases, once set to 352.8 stays for the duration of play.
Hence Vivaldi, I suspect authored correctly, plays without clicks, and Bach, that is much older clicks with every track.

Nothing to do with DSD to PCM conversion, no switching happening, nothing to do with my external DAC.

To prove the point I did the same tests without Apogee, only straight to plain audio in both Mac and Windows with exactly same results. Bach clicks, Vivaldi doesn't.

I appreciate your help with regard how should I play, what formats etc., already know what and how to do. I use somewhat tricky setup - 4.0 to get splendid sound at reasonable cost. JRiver is the only, as far as I know player that does all I need . And playing from SACD ISO files without the need to make any conversions beforehand is wonderful achievement. With my close to thousand SACDs I would have to build monstrous NAS. I want to avoid this and play directly from ISO structure, just how SACD spinners do.
I'm afraid that soon there will be no decent multichannel player available and the only way will be to use universal player with HT processor. This will not guarantee the quality I expect from SACD playback. This is why I decided to move to files stored on NAS and played by software player , like JRiver MC.
It is hard to substitute my aging MCH SACD player with excellent converters. Nothing, at reasonable price comes close. You will not believe how this very small Apogee Duet (and other Apogee stuff) sounds and at what cost. I have tested many DACs, also in rather expensive range, and no luck so far in finding the one I like. With MCH DACs it is more difficult, almost nothing to choose from for DSD MCH.
Apogee was recommended to me by recording engineer whom I value very much, he hears music like me. Some people here say that they listen to DSD or whatever. I'm listening to music, being myself trained violinst and electronics , computer engineer. One of forum members also gently suggested that many people download illegal ISO and not know how to play the, really kind of this person. Rather than supporting me they for I do not know what reason , try to convince me that I am wrong and should not meddle.
My only idea was to share my finding with the goal of improving the product - MC for the benefit of all.

Just wanted to advise you with my findings (quite unusual) hoping that this will get attention and maybe something can be fixed here. I also suggested how fix could be applied. SACD spinners software corrects this problem, probably by muting audio in transition periods. The same could be built into software player like JRiver MC to the benefit of listeners and JRiver.
This would serve with all formats that are supported by MC.

Don't get me wrong, MC is a great achievement and I will be happy to use it, also as it is.
But removing some quirks would make it even better.

AGAWA · « **Reply #34 on:** April 10, 2021, 11:08:23 am »

Awesome Donkey,

Decided to further investigate.
My rips were from about 2 years ago.
So this time I used fork SACD extract.
Problem stays with ISO, but this fork does magic, no clicks inside the album.
Only silent click when starting to buffer, several second before actual play.

At this stage I want to backup my collection of SACDs. Just in case there are no decent MCH players (at reasonable cost) available anymore.
My SACD player beats everything I know and when it dies I will consider converting ISO to DSF.
Did not want to build monstrous NAS to store everything if I do not need it now.

Unless JRiver will mute transitions. Easy to implement.

Finished my investigation, at least I know where I stand.

Cheers

AGAWA · « **Reply #35 on:** April 11, 2021, 02:08:10 am »

Now - my last post in this conversation.

My very important question to all of you who are convinced that need to teach me basics:
Is .ISO file that is produced by SACD Extract (old and fork) an exact copy of .ISO on the disc?
Please remember that this is simple file transfer from the SACD disc player to computer.

SACD players (spinners) play from .ISO structure and do cope with all kind of weird things buried in .ISO.
Perhaps they just mute transitions and hence play without any clicks.

Having tested several .ISO files from various periods of SACD discs manufacturing times I intend to think that with introduction of MCH discs there were improvements to MCH side of things. 2ch left as it was.

Will do more testing as I progress with backup of my collection.

Fork SACD Extract is just nice workaround and it produces DSF that play without clicks, but I would like to see problem caught at source , and not requiring workarounds.
Implementation of MUTE of transitions is an easy task and could be applied to all formats. But I also understand that this is a matter of priorities .
MUTE would make the solution elegant and this is what we expect from software.

There is some interesting reading (you know it perhaps):
https://samplerateconverter.com/iso-converter/manual#extract-iso-remove-pause-begin-first-tracks

As I said , this is my last post in this matter, unless you would like to proceed further.

AGAWA · « **Reply #36 on:** April 14, 2021, 04:03:51 am »

Older SACDs have ver. 1.01
Newer SACDs have ver. 1.20 for both 2ch and MCH areas.
Tested another 1.20 SACD ISO - no clicks.

AGAWA · « **Reply #37 on:** April 25, 2021, 02:16:20 am »

I see no further interest to fix this problem.
I have read that some makers of MCH DAC , when reviewer discovered clicks on switching, made a correction to avoid any clicking.
ISO playback is supported by MC, with advice - better convert to DSF and it will be clickless.

AGAWA · « **Reply #38 on:** April 28, 2021, 02:39:06 am »

Is there an option in MC to extract DSF files on the fly from ISO container?
Extract track after track and play them as DSF extracted on the fly from ISO?
This process would buffer the full track and have tracks ready for play one after another.

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #39 on:** April 28, 2021, 04:23:09 am »

No there isn't. MC can convert them, but that conversion goes through a PCM stage in the middle so it's a lossy conversion. To do this correctly you'd have to use one of the forks of sacd_extract from the command line (or GUI if you can find a frontend) to extract DSF files from a SACD ISO.

https://github.com/EuFlo/sacd-ripper

AGAWA · « **Reply #40 on:** April 28, 2021, 06:10:10 am »

it was just maybe not so crazy idea to have fork Sacd-extract as an engine in MC to do it on a fly.
Thanks for the link, I've been using this excellent tool to my satisfaction

HaWi · « **Reply #41 on:** April 28, 2021, 10:11:04 am »

On the Mac I'm using TRAX (http://bytewizard.eu/trax-audio-sacd-extractor) for that. It's payware, though.

AGAWA · « **Reply #42 on:** April 30, 2021, 02:47:51 pm »

Quote from: Awesome Donkey on April 28, 2021, 04:23:09 am

No there isn't. MC can convert them, but that conversion goes through a PCM stage in the middle so it's a lossy conversion. To do this correctly you'd have to use one of the forks of sacd_extract from the command line (or GUI if you can find a frontend) to extract DSF files from a SACD ISO.

https://github.com/EuFlo/sacd-ripper

It makes me think if above mentioned sacd-ripper goes through PCM during DSF extract from ISO?
Interesting. Can you enlighten me pls?

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #43 on:** April 30, 2021, 06:42:09 pm »

No, sacd_extract doesn't do any sort of conversion. In a nutshell it extracts the raw data for each track from the ISO and packs it into a DSF (or DFF) file without doing any conversion. If you use Media Center to do any sort of DSD conversion (e.g. DSD to PCM, DSF to DFF or vice versa, DSD64 to DSD128, etc.) it will go through a PCM stage in the middle.

INTERACT FORUM

Author Topic: clicks right before start of new track from .ISO (SACD) (Read 5526 times)