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[michael123]

Never been vaccinated in my life, had the flu and tonsilitis many times in my youth, but found the cause was dairy milk, so cut that out and never had flu or sickness of any kind for the past 55 years, except for the odd cold. Eat little meat, mainly fresh homegrown fruit and veg, low carb, no pharma drugs (except for a tooth extraction) no antibiotics, plenty of exercises in gardening, cycling and hiking, lots of sun, injuries treated with natural remedies herbs, tinctures, poultices and homoeopathy, 1 to 3-week maintenance detox fast a couple of times a year, herbal tea, wine or homebrew IPA beer:) No arthritis or any other degenerative diseases, no aches or pains, eyesight better than in my youth when I had to wear glasses, everything works great, so I'm just keeping to this path.

Vaccination is not for you, nobody cares about you.

It's about protecting those that are weak and/or cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons. And protecting the public Healthcare system from collapsing.

[JimH]

I'm 76 now.  Amazing.  Anyone less than 70 probably has no memory of Polio.  Read a little about why it's not a major threat now.

Jonas Salk invented the Salk Vaccine, introduced in 1955.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonas_Salk

He may have saved my life.  My cousin had polio around that time.

[syndromeofadown]

Vaccination is not for you, nobody cares about you.

I care. His family and friends care.

It's about protecting those that are weak and/or cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons.

Is the only way to protect these people to demand that everyone else take an experimental injection with no long term safety testing? Are lock downs and the closure of small businesses protecting them too?

If you are supporting segregation, bullying, loss of freedoms, loss of privacy, loss of human rights for perceived collective good you are on the wrong side of history. The day will come when people in support of the current medical tyranny will hang their head in shame. Remember coercion is illegal, choice is the backbone of human rights. Everyone is essential.

[zybex]

And these are the guys calling the other side "snowflakes" 

You need to read about the Spanish flu and how it was back then. You also need to get out of your echo chamber.

I care. His family and friends care.

I don't doubt this. But if they really want to protect each other, they would stop whining and just take the vaccine and follow the recommendations in order to minimize risk.

[Awesome Donkey]

To be honest I'm pretty much convinced (and jaded) to the point to think we're all screwed now, probably couldn't stop the spread at this point even if everyone wanted to.

[zybex]

Nah, it's just Natural Selection at work. Plenty of Darwin Awards to give out.

[michael123]

I care. His family and friends care.
Is the only way to protect these people to demand that everyone else take an experimental injection with no long term safety testing? Are lock downs and the closure of small businesses protecting them too?

If you are supporting segregation, bullying, loss of freedoms, loss of privacy, loss of human rights for perceived collective good you are on the wrong side of history. The day will come when people in support of the current medical tyranny will hang their head in shame. Remember coercion is illegal, choice is the backbone of human rights. Everyone is essential.

Among the unnvaccinated spread rate of the the virus is 6.5 times than of (fully) vaccinated, if referring to current Pfizer vaccine

[emmee]

You also need to get out of your echo chamber.

Pot calling the kettle black

[zybex]

Pot calling the kettle black

There's always that danger. But as a non-US person I enjoy a more distanced view than most of you over there and can read from both sides without much bias since I don't have any horse in the race. I also value expert opinion and research more than what TV personalities and politicians say (for ratings and votes), so there's that... when 99% of scientists say the same, and 50% of politics say something else, you can guess who's likely to be wrong.

[emmee]

There's always that danger.

Can't agree with this. The writer is always in full control of the keyboard

  when 99% of scientists say the same 

Source???

[zybex]

"There's always that danger." -> I meant, there's always the danger of being biased without knowing it (that what a bias is after all). You said that I was also in an echo chamber, implying that I also have a skewed view; that is a possibility. In fact, everyone has a bias towards some side, as it's not possible for a human to be completely objective. Scientists recognize this, hence the scientific method is all about discussing and proving results not only to others, but to oneself. So I don't deal in absolutes, I recognize that my opinions might be flawed and read a lot from both sides to get to a conclusion; this is what I don't see the antivaxx, anti-5g, flat-earthers, election-deniers, and oh-so-many-other-conspiracy-nuts doing.

Source???

Not Fox News.

[tij]

Never been vaccinated in my life, had the flu and tonsilitis many times in my youth, but found the cause was dairy milk, so cut that out and never had flu or sickness of any kind for the past 55 years, except for the odd cold. Eat little meat, mainly fresh homegrown fruit and veg, low carb, no pharma drugs (except for a tooth extraction) no antibiotics, plenty of exercises in gardening, cycling and hiking, lots of sun, injuries treated with natural remedies herbs, tinctures, poultices and homoeopathy, 1 to 3-week maintenance detox fast a couple of times a year, herbal tea, wine or homebrew IPA beer:) No arthritis or any other degenerative diseases, no aches or pains, eyesight better than in my youth when I had to wear glasses, everything works great, so I'm just keeping to this path.

There are vaccines administered to new born (polio, TB, hepatitis ... just to name few). Unless your parents deliberately kept you from vaccination, you should have got those ... but dont recall it.

You are indeed lucky to be blessed with good health and never get in contact with deadly decease. I too never had flu shots ... until I got one ... it was certainly not fun being nailed to the bed for a week ... something i would like to avoid, hence now I am taking flu shots.

Plus if you ever been beaten by animal ... rabies vaccine is a must ... unless you want to bet your life on it ... rabies is 100% fatal once symptoms shows (there are maybe 1 or 2 documented survival).

And as other mentioned ... it not just about me ... its about my family and friends too ... do i want to be burden to them when virus strike me down ... or worst, pass that virus to them

[zybex]

It's all about risk management. Is the vaccine risk-free? No. Does it have severe/fatal reactions in some cases? Yes. That's the same with ANY vaccine! However, the benefits FAR outweigh the risk.

When I was taking the COVID shots (and others, I've already had a tetanus shot afterwards), I was aware that there was a non-zero chance that I might have a negative reaction and might die 1 hour later. Same when I took my son there, I know the same can happen to him... however, this is STILL the safest option, by far. The risk of dying by COVID or causing others to die or having a prolonged hospital stay is MUCH higher, as the numbers are showing.

This is true not only for COVID, but of many other diseases for which there are vaccines that pretty much eradicated them in most of the world. People don't remember how it was before vaccines. Suddenly this vaccine is somehow worse than the others, even though medicinal technology has progressed by leaps and bounds over the last few decades, leading to lower mortality rates and higher life expectancy. That is not a coincidence.

[syndromeofadown]

There are vaccines administered to new born (polio, TB, hepatitis ... just to name few). Unless your parents deliberately kept you from vaccination, you should have got those ... but dont recall it.

This really started with the 1986 law absolving Vaccine Manufacturers from liability. Look into infant mortality rate in the US compared to other developed countries. It is the highest. Do babies need a hep B vaccine? Are they doing a lot of party drugs in their first year? Remember when kids were healthy and and didn't have autoimmune diseases? Autoimmune diseases have increased 7 percent per year for the last 30 years. I got all of my childhood vax's just before 86, there was just a couple of them. I, and all my friends, got along just fine without the 72 that kids now get by the time they are 18.

That's the same with ANY vaccine! However, the benefits FAR outweigh the risk.

6 months in this can not be known. Can you tell me how many kids have had heart inflammation from taking a vax for a virus they have basically zero risk from? Any is too many. Look at the pharmaceutical companies own studies on this, the adverse reactions for kids are way too high. How will this new one react with the 72 other ones they received?

Suddenly this vaccine is somehow worse than the others

Yes. Long term effects aren't known. Animal trials of similar vax's went horribly bad. There have been many vaccines that have killed so many people they needed pulled. They aren't all God's gift to mankind. Just because they repeated the mantra of safe and effective for 6 months doesn't make it true. It doesn't look to be too effective in Israel.

I hope that people look into where they are getting their information from. Get your information from people and organizations without an unprecedented history of fraud and corruption. There are scientists, doctors, and nurses risking their lives, reputations, and livelihood to share their information that paints a different picture than that of the mainstream media. Look for truth instead of a scapegoat. Even if you use all of the published data from official studies, case counts, and clinical trials it will paint a different picture than the mainstream. How did that WMD situation turn out. Did we find them all?

I keep up with all of the official numbers from the province I live in and those that neighbour me. No more people have died than previous years. The vast majority of those that have died WITH (not from) covid where over the average age of death, and in government run care facilities. The vast majority of people that weren't old had comorbidites and were obese. In last year in Canada for people under 50, more have died from constipation than Covid.

To think someone has to be either pro vax or antivax is mental. I am not antivax but I am anti giving children experimental injections that they do not need. How about only necessary vaccines given to people that need and want them with maximum testing and safety precautions. How about pharmaceutical companies stand behind their product.

The point I have been trying to convey here is that the situation isn't as simple as get to 80 percent and get back to normal. It does not justify human right violations, dehumanizing those who disagree with you, or segregation based on personal confidential medical information.

[JimH]

syndromeofadown,
According to the NY Times, 616 people died yesterday from Covid.  71,540 were hospitalized.  Most were unvaccinated.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/covid-cases.html

What do you propose we do?

[voodoo5_6k]

@Admins

May I kindly suggest to move this thread to INTERACT FORUM >More >Music, Movies, Politics, and Other Cheap Thrills

It feels sort of strange seeing this when looking for MC28 Windows support/information.

Thank you!

[JimH]

It is a little strange,  I agree

[emmee]

To think someone has to be either pro vax or antivax is mental. I am not antivax but I am anti giving children experimental injections that they do not need. How about only necessary vaccines given to people that need and want them with maximum testing and safety precautions. How about pharmaceutical companies stand behind their product.

Nice to see a rational and sober comment such as this!

[emmee]

A few facts that you won't see mentioned my ANY news outlet:

>The COVID shots do not prevent infection or transmission, hence the variants created
inside vaccinated individuals will spread. This hypothesis was confirmed in a 2015 study,
which found that “imperfect vaccination can enhance the transmission of highly virulent
pathogens”

> Research shows fully vaccinated individuals who develop breakthrough infections with
the Delta variant have the same viral loads as unvaccinated individuals infected with this
virus, hence both groups can spread the infection to the same degree

> Data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention show 74% of COVID-19
diagnoses in Barnstable County, Massachusetts, between July 6 through July 25, 2021,
and 80% of hospitalizations, were among the fully vaccinated. Additionally, four of five
hospitalized patients were fully vaccinated. Only one was not fully vaccinated.

> When vaccines that don’t provide robust immunity are overused, they allow viruses to
mutate in potentially hazardous ways. COVID variants with measurably different behavior
emerged in mid-December 2020, which coincides with the rollout of the first COVID shots

If you don't like what you just read don't shoot the messenger.  Do you own research.

If you're getting your information from ANY corporate or government run / subsidized "news" organization you're simply NOT getting the facts.

[tij]

A few facts that you won't see mentioned my ANY news outlet:

>The COVID shots do not prevent infection or transmission, hence the variants created
inside vaccinated individuals will spread. This hypothesis was confirmed in a 2015 study,
which found that “imperfect vaccination can enhance the transmission of highly virulent
pathogens”

> Research shows fully vaccinated individuals who develop breakthrough infections with
the Delta variant have the same viral loads as unvaccinated individuals infected with this
virus, hence both groups can spread the infection to the same degree

> Data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention show 74% of COVID-19
diagnoses in Barnstable County, Massachusetts, between July 6 through July 25, 2021,
and 80% of hospitalizations, were among the fully vaccinated. Additionally, four of five
hospitalized patients were fully vaccinated. Only one was not fully vaccinated.

> When vaccines that don’t provide robust immunity are overused, they allow viruses to
mutate in potentially hazardous ways. COVID variants with measurably different behavior
emerged in mid-December 2020, which coincides with the rollout of the first COVID shots

If you don't like what you just read don't shoot the messenger.  Do you own research.

If you're getting your information from ANY corporate or government run / subsidized "news" organization you're simply NOT getting the facts.

Not trying to shoot the messanger ... but those research are likely done in less time span than it took to develop, test and approved (to be totally honest ... emergency approved) vaccine ... likely on substantally less "test subjects" (i am struggling to honestly find better term so as not dehuminize volunteers involved)

There is tendency in scientific community to do lots of research in short time span in order to get quickly published. A good research ... needs to be verified ... Einstein relativity research was just that ... until it was verified.

Not saying you should blindly follow what government tells you ... but inaction in this case is not an option imho

Bad commander is the one who dont react ... good commander is the one that reacts fast ... a very good commandet is the one who reacts fast and correct.

[Dawgincontrol]

@Admins

May I kindly suggest to move this thread to INTERACT FORUM >More >Music, Movies, Politics, and Other Cheap Thrills

It feels sort of strange seeing this when looking for MC28 Windows support/information.

Thank you!

Agree.  This has been placed in the incorrect forum, imo.

[syndromeofadown]

It is a little strange,  I agree

I agree as well. I do appreciate that you aren't deleting my posts.

What do you propose we do?

Uphold the constitution. Stop cancel culture and censorship. Look to countries with no lockdowns and low cases and deaths as examples. Look to doctors who are saving people everyday with things like early treatment. Promote healthy lifestyles, nutritious foods, and lower body fat. Instead of spending trillions on bailouts and war, use just a little bit of that for healthcare. Add podcasting 2.0 to JRiver.

An equally important question is what do we not do?
Don't fill nursing homes with sick people that are only separated by a piece of tape on the floor. Don't take a cue from Germany in 38. Don't take a cue from the CCP. Don't put a portion of the county into gulags.

Thanks for hearing me out. I wish the best for everyone here. I will stop posting on this topic.

[Sky King]

Get the vaccine and get a microchip implanted that can't be purchased from eBay.

[zybex]

Yeah, I don't know why Qualcomm/Mediatek/Samsung keep releasing their huge and power hungry 5G chips when we all know they can actually be built the size of a tiny grain of sand and require no battery to work.

[Rockets71]

I don't post a lot in Interact, but this new mutant from South Africa is extremely concerning to me (I am a Ph.D. level Molecular Biologist who has worked in the past with viruses). I humbly hope that everyone will get vaccinated and boosted. Your life, your neighbor's life, our economy, and humanity might very well hang in the balance if we can't get this darn thing under control.

[avpman]

It continues to amaze me that educated (college and doctorate) people still don't think they need to be vaccinated or they prefer to take snake oil (i.e. Ivermectin.) What the hell do they think has been tamping down the virus so far?

[mojave]

It continues to amaze me that educated (college and doctorate) people still don't think they need to be vaccinated or they prefer to take snake oil (i.e. Ivermectin.) What the hell do they think has been tamping down the virus so far?

I know 10 people in the past two weeks that are vaccinated and have contracted COVID-19.

My mother-in-law (76 years old and not vaccinated) currently has COVID-19. Her doctor has treated over 400 patients with Ivermectin and not a single one has died or even been on a respirator. My MIL has been hospitalized for two weeks now and 40% of COVID patients at that hospital end up on the respirator. Her doctor has specialized in infectious diseases for over 40 years.

For a different perspective:
The Undeniable Ivermectin Miracle in India’s 240m Populated Largest State, Uttar Pradesh
Ivermectin: Fact-checking the Fact-checkers

[syndromeofadown]

Ivermectin study site:
https://ivmmeta.com/
The CDC has 16 studies on their site, it's buried now and very hard to find. I can dig it out if anyone cares.
The one they talk about in the news is when they gave huge amounts to covid patient late into their battle with it and from that they try to discredit everything before and after.

I live in a fairly remote location. We have around 90 percent vaxxed and were the first in Canada to receive it. Boosters are currently being administered. It worked, we are all good and back to normal!
Just kidding. We are in a state of emergency because the vaccinated people are sick with covid. The infection rates have skyrocketed among them. They all have to wear masks in public. There are limits to how many people can be in a house. All unvaxxed have been fired or are in the process of being fired from their jobs. Passports are needed for non-essential businesses. Unvaxxed can't fly. On top of that, in my personal circle amongst the vaxxed there are heart problems, numerous heart attacks in friends parents, internal bleeding, ovary issues (god knows what is going on there, but it involves severe pain), and a friend of a friend has a severe neurological disorder. I am thankful I do not have any soccer players in my life.

This sounds like and epic failure to me. It sounds exactly like the other places on earth with high vax rates. Don't say that it would be far worse if we didn't have the shot, because this is a pointless assumption. Instead lets look at places that were not taking experimental procedures. I look to the Dutch Reform and the Mennonites. Covid passed through their communities like the flu. They are all good. Another place with very low rates is Africa. An interesting thing about Africa and also India is that they use Ivermectin as a prophylaxis. The problem with Ivermectin, the Nobel Prize winning drug, is that it is cheap. Also you cannot have emergency approval of an experimental treatment if a treatment already exists. So is there a super mutant there about to wipe out the entire planet, or is the mainstream media making a distraction for the mysterious case of Africa doing better than the highly vaccinated countries? Time will tell, I suspect sooner rather than latter.

It continues to amaze me that educated (college and doctorate) people still don't think they need to be vaccinated or they prefer to take snake oil (i.e. Ivermectin.)

Ivermectin = Nobel Prize winning drug.
Snake oil = a term used to describe deceptive marketing, health care fraud, or a scam. ie The billions spent on pharmaceutical marketing. 96 percent effective.
What do you think the hundreds of thousands of unvaxxed health care workers have seen in the last year that has dissuaded them?

What the hell do they think has been tamping down the virus so far?

It's not tampered. Evidence of this is the state of emergency i currently live in that's rife with discrimination and human rights violations. Here it is a pandemic of the vaccinated. We are far far worse off than before everyone took the shot.

The news bombards us with covid numbers but what they have not been saying is that the vaxxed have twice the death rate as unvaxxed from non covid related illness. ie heart problems. It is coming out more each day. You just have to find a news outlet that isn't supported by pharma add dollars. I believe it is on the mainstream news in England now. The number where I live are secret, well at least they have been since they stopped supporting the narrative.

[BillT]

Wow!

I thought this place was reasonably rational and not affected by the lunacy of social media. Seems I was wrong.

Ivermectin is used for killing parasites in animals. That's what the creators got a Nobel prize for.

Parasites are not viruses.

[mwillems]

I found the Ivermectin question interesting because a significant number of the studies showed no benefit, but there were also more than a few studies that seemed to definitely show a significant benefit.  That kind of split over a large numbers of studies is unusual, and I was curious about what could lead to that kind of divergence. I found the following analysis of the Ivermectin studies to be interesting (the author is a medical doctor who is also a popular blogger, so it's pretty readable but long): 
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/ivermectin-much-more-than-you-wanted

The take away: there were some small trials that showed Ivermectin was helpful for COVID.  Some of those had serious methodological problems, but others were methodologically sound and still showed a COVID outcome benefit for Ivermectin.  But, curiously, later larger trials showed minimal or no benefit.  The author notes that Ivermectin is a very effective anti-parasite drug (in humans, as well as animals) and that many of the Ivermectin trials that showed significant benefit were conducted in regions of the world that have endemic parasite/intestinal worm problems (i.e. as much as 25 to 50% of the population being infected at any given time).  Having parasites can be very hard on your immune system. So his theory is the reason that Ivermectin worked well in trials in Bangladesh or rural East India was that many of the experimental subjects were also suffering from parasites that the Ivermectin cured, improving their COVID survival rates. 

It's not an airtight case, but the graph of parasite prevalence compared to the study locations looks very persuasive.  In any case, I thought it was an interesting read of the evidence which elegantly explained why the later, larger studies run in Western countries failed to show any significant benefit for Ivermectin.

[syndromeofadown]

I thought this place was reasonably rational and not affected by the lunacy of social media. Seems I was wrong.

Turns out people with all levels of rationality like music and movies and like to use MC to enjoy them. I can't speak to the lunacy of social media, I have personally never had an account with facebook, twitter, tic toc, etc. I do however read a lot and keep up to date with mainstream "news". I also keep up with independent news. I watch a lot of interviews with doctors, nurses and scientists. I tend to trust the front line doctors and researchers more than big bird, software engineers, and companies that have been criminally charged billions of dollars.

Ivermectin is used for killing parasites in animals. That's what the creators got a Nobel prize for.

I had porridge for breakfast today, can you believe I ate horse food. Ivermectin has been around since the 60s, it is not just for animals. It is even used for rosacea. If thousands of doctors are using it successfully then it warrants the time and resources to look into it scientifically. Instead it has been part of a smear champagne by cnn and others. "People are eating horse paste".

I had dinner with a friend last night, her husband is in Japan visiting family so we discussed how Japan is doing. Turns out the US has 3 times the population as japan, but has had 40 times as many people die from Covid. Japan has approved, and uses, Ivermectin. Has Japan been corrupted by social media? Their low death rate doesn't prove Ivermectin works, but it may be correlation. It is worth looking into scientifically. Science is a methodology, it is not a religion who's priests are paid by big pharma and by the patents for the drugs they are pushing.

So instead of giving existing drugs a chance that are proven safe and effective, the pharma companies have received, and are seeking, emergency approval for untested drugs. Drugs that destroy peoples kidneys, and the latest one that is a repurposed aids treatment.

Is the new African strain called omicron? Omega would have been better. Or will it be covid 21? Convenient timing as updated vaccines and boosters are just being released. I wonder if those test results that will be released in 2076 too.

Discussion and debate are part of a healthy mind and part of a healthy society. Propaganda, outrage, and censorship are not. We should be listening to the many doctors that are successfully treating patients, not cancelling them.

It may however be time to cancel Sesame Street. If anyone is looking for a good tv show to watch try Dopesick starring Michael Keaton.

[JimH]

In the facts department, your chances of being positive for Covid are currently 5x higher if you're unvaccinated, and your chances of dying from it are 13x greater.

[syndromeofadown]

Straight from the NIH site, small study on Ivermectin:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33278625/

[dtc]

Straight from the NIH site, small study on Ivermectin:

That site is a library site. NIH does not endorse the research.

The study is very small. The authors state that larger studies need to be done. Far from conclusive.

Additional Information:  The research was analyzed by NIH and found to be inconclusive at best.

https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/tables/table-2c/

Key Limitations:

Small sample size
Unclear whether both IVM and DOX placebos were used.
Excluded patients with chronic diseases.
Disease appears to have been mild in all patients; thus, the reason for hospitalization is unclear.
Absolute changes in inflammatory markers were not presented, but were reportedly significant.
PCR results are not a validated surrogate marker for clinical efficacy.

Interpretation:

A 5-day course of IVM resulted in faster virologic clearance than placebo, but not a faster time to resolution of symptoms (fever, cough, and sore throat). Because time to virologic clearance is not a validated surrogate marker for clinical efficacy, the clinical efficacy of IVM is unknown.

[mojave]

The Nebraska Attorney General's office issued a Opinion on October 15, 2021 called the Prescription of Ivermectin or Hydroxychloroquine as Off-Label Medicines for the Prevention or Treatment of Covid-19. The paper discusses the history of Ivermectin and how its antiviral properties had been studied prior to COVID-19.

[dtc]

The Nebraska Attorney General's office issued a Opinion on October 15, 2021 called the Prescription of Ivermectin or Hydroxychloroquine as Off-Label Medicines for the Prevention or Treatment of Covid-19. The paper discusses the history of Ivermectin and how its antiviral properties had been studied prior to COVID-19.

Douglas Peterson is a lawyer and Republican Attorney General of Nebraska. He was asked for guidance on whether charges should be brought against physicians for prescribing ivermectin. He concluded that according to Nebraska law, doctors had the right to write off-label presciptions. That is probably the right legal decision.

However, his "analysis" of the medical issues is incomplete and sometimes just plain wrong.  It shows why lawyers, especially political lawyers, should not try to analyze medical issues.  Doctors should leave legal issues to lawyers and lawyers should leave medicine to doctors.

By the way, he also seems to support using hydroxychoroquine for COVID-19 patients. Large scale studies have shown it is not effective against COVID 19.

[KingSparta]

I am Vaccinated and getting my Booster in Dec.

[Outlaw Audio]

Completed my vaccinations in April, received the booster in October.