Topic: Windows 11 Testing (Read 10518 times)

jmone · « **on:** August 24, 2021, 07:29:13 pm »

Early days, but I upgraded a PC with Windows 11 specifically to test it's improved OS based HDR settings. I'm testing on a pair of 1,000 nit 43" HDR Monitors (Philips 436M6VBPA). So far it looks like a very nice improvement for both HDR and SDR Material including the desktop with Auto HDR set to ON in the Windows settings. I can leave HDR set to ON and now the desktop and SDR looks fine, and of the HDR "just works" (RO HQ). It gets rid of all the switching between HDR and SDR modes.

rec head · « **Reply #1 on:** August 25, 2021, 06:32:17 am »

This is great news. Thanks for looking into it.

Hendrik · « **Reply #2 on:** August 31, 2021, 12:12:10 pm »

It just occured to me that my HTPC will likely need a new MB/CPU to be Win11 compatible, so I can benefit from better HDR support, but I suppose its time. Already got it a new GPU for HDMI 2.1

jmone · « **Reply #3 on:** September 01, 2021, 12:28:17 am »

Nice. The only issue I've seen so far is a Bluetooth one (and it's in their release notes). I've a Blackmagic Speed Editor Keyboard that if I pair it will cause the BT Driver in Windows 11 to continuously fail. I had to unpair it for now (and just use a USB Cable).

newsposter · « **Reply #4 on:** September 01, 2021, 02:36:09 pm »

Intel is already releasing Win11-tested drivers for BT and Wifi. Their IDSA utility will find the freshly-released versions pretty rapidly.

Nvidia is mentioning Windows 11 HDR in the release notes for the most recent game-ready driver. The Studio driver has yet to catch up. Don't really follow AMD video much myself.

Haven't read anything from Realtec on Win11 yet.

jmone · « **Reply #5 on:** September 01, 2021, 04:24:06 pm »

Yeah - I've got the Intel W11 BT Driver loaded and installed. Still with issues, and FYI - on Win 11 Blog Page

Quote

Windows 11 Build 22000.168 comes with these known issues:
- Microsoft is aware of Bluetooth connectivity issues.

...and for me, I had ,000's of BT errors before I unpaired my DaVinci Resolve Speed Editor Keyboard. Once that was done it stopped. Looking at Windows Event Veiwer, is see:

Quote

The Bluetooth Support Service service terminated unexpectedly. It has done this 2177 time(s).

So it's not all BT devices but specific ones causing issues. I'm sure it will get sorted out however (I did post details on the Black Magic web site).

jmone · « **Reply #6 on:** September 02, 2021, 04:15:30 pm »

FYI - Windows 11 Build 22000.176 (KB5006050) is out with BT LE fixes (but it does not fix the issue with the Resolve KB crashing the BT Driver over and over).

jmone · « **Reply #7 on:** September 20, 2021, 11:58:54 pm »

So a couple more updates to 11 and it is all working (including fixing my BT issue). Looks ready to go. It is nice to be able to leave it in HDR mode all the time.

Hendrik · « **Reply #8 on:** September 21, 2021, 02:32:43 am »

Can you leave it on without Auto HDR and still have it work as expected? Not sure I want windows HDR-ifiying my stuff.

jmone · « **Reply #9 on:** September 21, 2021, 06:22:23 am »

From what I can tell, you leave it HDR (OS) On all the time, yet SDR content looks like SDR (including 709 videos, apps, desktop etc) and HDR (2020) content looks like HDR but there is no "HDR <-> SDR switching" of the display when playing between SDR <-> HDR content. madVR OSD is correctly reporting that the OS is HDR, and the content is 709 / 2020 respectively. It's not flawless, as I have had occasions where it drops out of HDR mode on one of the monitors but it seems to be when it is doing the display rate changing at the same time moving between HDR and SDR video. My testing so far is only on my "office PC" but it is the one with 2 x HDR monitors I use for video editing (including HDR)... and it might be that one of the monitors is connected via HDMI through an AV Receiver and the other is DP directly so the EDID info is reported differently. The behaviour also seems to have changed a little with the various NVidia drivers over the last month. I've not yet tried Win11 it on the HTPC/HT.

Let me know if you want anything tested specifically (or any test charts etc)

jmone · « **Reply #10 on:** September 21, 2021, 06:40:35 am »

...did a quick run through (made sure madVR was set to HDR Passthrough ... one was set to "let madVR choose" so I changed that). Used a range of SDR and HDR title and full menu playback. All looked correct, even OSD and Subtitles during playback. No weird issues. It all just "worked". Looking forward to seeing how JRVR goes.

jmone · « **Reply #11 on:** September 21, 2021, 06:55:37 am »

...and HDR Tonemapping in madVR also works as expected

jmone · « **Reply #12 on:** September 21, 2021, 07:08:48 am »

...and about the only other thing you can do in the Win11 HDR Settings is adjust the relative brightness of SDR material (this impacts SDR Video playback as well as the Desktop and Apps). I'm not sure if I like 75/90/100% at this stage (it's a bit like adjusting the screen brightness but only for SDR there is no impact on HDR material).

JimH · « **Reply #13 on:** September 21, 2021, 07:43:05 am »

Thanks for all the details.

Hendrik · « **Reply #14 on:** September 21, 2021, 08:38:01 am »

I suppose I'll test soon enough. Didn't really want to bother with Windows 11 test versions yet. Also don't have a desktop screen with HDR support, still trying to find one I like, so testing on the big TV in the living room is a bit cumbersome

zybex · « **Reply #15 on:** September 21, 2021, 03:53:16 pm »

Is there a power consumption penalty for having HDR always on?

jmone · « **Reply #16 on:** September 21, 2021, 04:19:24 pm »

Quote from: Hendrik on September 21, 2021, 08:38:01 am

I suppose I'll test soon enough. Didn't really want to bother with Windows 11 test versions yet. Also don't have a desktop screen with HDR support, still trying to find one I like, so testing on the big TV in the living room is a bit cumbersome

Apparently, the current code base I'm on is the RTM for October.... so not long to wait. The screens I'm using are the 43" Philips 436M6VBP which are very reasonably priced for a 1000 nit screen (they are an older screen now however) and good enough for what I need.

jmone · « **Reply #17 on:** September 21, 2021, 04:20:19 pm »

Quote from: zybex on September 21, 2021, 03:53:16 pm

Is there a power consumption penalty for having HDR always on?

I guess power consumption will be tied to how "bright" the image is that is being displayed. On my monitors I also have an HDR1000 mode (max 1000nit), but I tend to only use that when grading. Interestingly, Windows knows what your Max Nit capability is, and for me reports that the screen is as follows:

TheShoe · « **Reply #18 on:** September 23, 2021, 09:25:03 am »

So the SDR looks ok with Windows 11 OS HDR mode on?

For me - on Windows 10 in any case - SDR looked "washed out"; HDR content looked perfect, but still the majority of my content is SDR including the video games I play, though more and more support HDR and require it to be ON in Windows in order for the game to use it.

Have you compared the two - Windows 10 vs Windows 11 HDR on with SDR content?

newsposter · « **Reply #19 on:** September 23, 2021, 01:08:56 pm »

Nvidia has released their first 'official' Win11 drivers including support for AutoHDR

jmone · « **Reply #20 on:** September 23, 2021, 04:54:15 pm »

Quote from: TheShoe on September 23, 2021, 09:25:03 am

So the SDR looks ok with Windows 11 OS HDR mode on?

For me - on Windows 10 in any case - SDR looked "washed out"; HDR content looked perfect, but still the majority of my content is SDR including the video games I play, though more and more support HDR and require it to be ON in Windows in order for the game to use it.

Have you compared the two - Windows 10 vs Windows 11 HDR on with SDR content?

Yup, I now leave both Win11 OS and my screens in HDR mode and both SDR and HDR looks correct. On the same PC with Windows 10, I had to keep changing my settings (OS/screen) to match HDR or SDR content. Any wrong combination between the source content, OS, and screen settings produce either washed out or weird overly bright/saturated results. When it was wrong, it was very obvious.

I am running the latest Nvidia drivers..... and it all just works.

jmone · « **Reply #21 on:** September 23, 2021, 05:11:45 pm »

The other thing it fixes is the annoying madVR bug where the screen would be "stuck" in HDR mode (after playing HDR titles) till MC was closed. The whole switching the screen between HDR/SDR is no longer needed.

I'm not sure what test patterns would be best to see how "good / accurate" the Windows SDR content --> HDR Screen tone mapping is. I have run the Std SDR Video White/Black (Reference 16-235) levels test patterns and the clipping levels are pretty good straight out the box (see below)

If anyone can point to other test pattern that would show this better, let me know and I'll run it up.

rec head · « **Reply #22 on:** September 23, 2021, 05:23:28 pm »

Quote from: jmone on September 23, 2021, 05:11:45 pm

The other thing it fixes is the annoying madVR bug where the screen would be "stuck" in HDR mode (after playing HDR titles) till MC was closed. The whole switching the screen between HDR/SDR is no longer needed.

It might be worth the upgrade just for that.

jmone · « **Reply #23 on:** September 23, 2021, 08:18:28 pm »

Errrr... Looks like my HTPC's will need a new Mobo/CPU. To date, I've just upgraded my GPU's to get better performance as required (eg UHD) as the CPU generation really did not matter. My "latest" HTPC is a Gen 7 Intel so .... no Win 11 for me (well Intel have carved out one Gen 7 model as compatible ... so far). My other HTPC is even older (remember when Shuttles were the go for SFF?)

Hendrik · « **Reply #24 on:** September 24, 2021, 03:05:58 am »

I was planning on checking out mid-range Alder Lake assuming they don't come out too late, since my HTPC is also a 6700k

jmone · « **Reply #25 on:** September 24, 2021, 04:59:35 pm »

Unfortunately I could not wait for Alder Lake for my main PC build as I needed Thunderbolt for the Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K mini (for HDR Grading).... so was stuck with a 10/11th gen and ended up going i9-11900K (which has been reviewed as a "waste of sand" by some) and the insanely expensive Z590 AORUS XTREME mobo.

Is there any secret sauce with Alder Lake for HTPC use? Otherwise, I may just get what will be cheaper 10/11th gen HW for the HTPCs once Alder Lake is released.

Hendrik · « **Reply #26 on:** September 25, 2021, 04:34:05 am »

12th gen mid-range is shaping up to be pretty fast for good value, offering more future proofing. The only other Intel CPU I would consider would be a 11400, basically the only CPU in the 11th gen ever worth buying, because of its mid-range value, otherwise go AMD.

TheShoe · « **Reply #27 on:** September 25, 2021, 07:27:17 am »

Quote from: jmone on September 23, 2021, 08:18:28 pm

Errrr... Looks like my HTPC's will need a new Mobo/CPU. To date, I've just upgraded my GPU's to get better performance as required (eg UHD) as the CPU generation really did not matter. My "latest" HTPC is a Gen 7 Intel so .... no Win 11 for me (well Intel have carved out one Gen 7 model as compatible ... so far). My other HTPC is even older (remember when Shuttles were the go for SFF?)

I have a i7 7700 and the beta version will install/run. There is the possibility MS will add support for more Gen 7. if not I'll probably grab one of the 7th gen that is supported - not ready yet for upgrading the mobo/cpu and I've been considering going PCIe4/AMD when I do.

As for the SDR->HDR tone mapping Windows 11 does with HDR mode on, I find the colors are too muted. Probably need to calibrate my LG set to compensate (or madVR); Calibration is so often an exercise in madness and frustration as there are so many variables between source and scene.

Hendrik · « **Reply #28 on:** September 26, 2021, 02:51:12 am »

Not one 7th series CPU is on the list of supported processors, unfortunately.
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/windows-11-supported-intel-processors

Not all those requirements are being strictly enforced in Insider builds yet.

jmone · « **Reply #29 on:** September 26, 2021, 04:15:21 am »

Looks like there is a few very specific 7th gen processors on the list - From : https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/08/loosened-windows-11-requirements-cover-the-surface-studio-2-but-not-much-else/

Quote

The specific 7th-generation processors that have been added to the compatibility list are:

X-series processors based on the Skylake-X and Kaby Lake architectures, like the Core i5-7640X and Core i7-7800X
W-series Xeon processors
The Core i7-7820HQ specifically, with the caveat that systems with this processor must be using DCH drivers
If the decision to support one specific 7th-generation Core i7 laptop processor strikes you as odd, you don't need to look far for an explanation—this just happens to be the CPU included in Microsoft's Surface Studio 2, which Microsoft still sells but has not updated in three years.

Hendrik · « **Reply #30 on:** September 26, 2021, 11:12:39 am »

X and W series may be named 7th series, but they are not that related to the consumer 7th series like the 7700K, so you can't exactly swap between those, unfortunately.

TheShoe · « **Reply #31 on:** September 27, 2021, 04:12:47 pm »

With Windows 11 HDR on have you noticed that blue shifts towards purple for SDR content?

I've tried it for a few days now; HDR content looks perfect. SDR just doesn't look correct. I'll live with the madVR issue for now as I can't seem to tweak this for SDR such that HDR isn't also affected

jmone · « **Reply #32 on:** September 27, 2021, 06:53:59 pm »

Maybe.... FWIW, Here is the monitor profile after calibration using the i1 Pro with Win 11 HDR On. There is certainly a reasonable adjustment with Red (prior my reds looked a bit orange), but this could be the Monitor not just Win 11 HDR.

For video viewing I've been perfectly happy with both SDR and HDR but each of us will have a different tolerance and over the years I'm pixel peeping less and less. I'm also more focused on good HDR vs SDR. Also, as Win11 rolls out there will be more and more feedback on how well it does SDR --> HDR.

TheShoe · « **Reply #33 on:** October 02, 2021, 11:09:35 am »

I've done some additional tweaking and think I am getting it dialed in.

The problem is that displays vary wildly in how they ultimately render the pixels and there are so many adjustments between source and destination that it's hard to find that sweet spot. the other thing of course is that my eyes are just getting used to it - it's quite subjective of course

I will say - for Video Games, the Windows 11 HDR auto setting for non-HDR games is quite nice!

Here's hoping they add support for the 7700K at some point; if not, I expect someone will come up with a hack to make it work. For now the beta seems fine.

jmone · « **Reply #34 on:** October 02, 2021, 04:53:44 pm »

I guess that as of the 5th the Win11 rollout will start so we will see more and more people using it over time. My 2 x Philips were purchased a year apart and looked quite different till I calibrated them (ageing pixels / dimming I guess).

newsposter · « **Reply #35 on:** October 04, 2021, 04:44:47 pm »

Intel released their Win11/WIn10 certified drivers for bluetooth and wifi today.

JimH · « **Reply #36 on:** October 12, 2021, 08:41:16 am »

Split HDR Settings Problems in Win11

jmone · « **Reply #37 on:** October 15, 2021, 05:11:23 pm »

I just upgraded one of my 7th Gen HTPC's to Windows 11 (powering a Sony OLED TV) and it went fine (with the Warning it is not supported blah blah blah) and looks great with HDR on all the time. Looks like I can squeeze some more life out of this HTPC. No more madVR stuck in HDR when playing SDR nonsense! Love it.

jmone · « **Reply #38 on:** October 16, 2021, 03:04:45 pm »

I've now converted the following to Win11 and turned on HDR to test:

Officially Supported HW:
- Main PC (Z590 Auros Extreme i9-11900K): Driving 2 x HDR Monitors, all works well
- HTPC (NUC8 i5): Driving a Epson TW9300. I can not get HDR mode to stay on. It appears as an option, you can turn it on, the goes PJ goes blank as it switches mode but then it comes back as HDR Off. No problems with MC/madVR switching to HDR mode for playback but the point of the test is to leave it on all the time if possible. While the NUC8 is officially supported, it is odd that it did not get (as of yet) the new Intel GPU Driver, which I suspect could be the cause of the issue.

Unsupported HW:
- HTPC (Shuttle XPC Z170 i5-7th Gen): Driving Sony OLED, all works well
- HTPC (ASRock ITX Z270 i5-7th Gen): Driving a JVC 7500 PJ. I have to set the nvidia colour format to YCbCr444 (or 422) instead of RGB or it triggers the "Magenta Bug" that this PJ is known for if you send HDR Meta Data over 8-Bit RGB. Looks good, however as it is in HDR mode it is much dimmer than SDR mode (which is probably fine as it really only gets used at night). Still thinking about this one.
- HTPC (NUC7 i5): Driving a LG OLED TV, all works well. This unit got the updated graphics driver this week.

I've not noticed any specific issues with upgrading the 7th Gen PCs to Windows 11. This is great news, as I really don't want to upgrade perfectly good HW. Lets see how they go getting updates etc from MS. Oddly it is the supported NUC8 that is giving me the most trouble trying to leave HDR mode on.

TheShoe · « **Reply #39 on:** October 17, 2021, 04:04:28 pm »

Are you still using the beta/RC build of Win11 or did you install the official release using the various means to bypass the CPU compatibility check?

I've run it long enough now, pushing things hard with various games and of course media center and I've not had any issues at all.

jmone · « **Reply #40 on:** October 17, 2021, 05:24:38 pm »

The Main PC was on the Insiders Stream and I've had that for a month or so.

The NUC8 was offered it via Windows Update

The Others, I did the RegEdit Method to allow unsupported CPUs then did an inplace upgrade running setup from a mounted ISO.

Like you, it has been fine for me in general but I really wanted to see how the move to always HDR performed. That too is working well (once I fix my Nuc8 that is).

jmone · « **Reply #41 on:** October 21, 2021, 06:07:10 pm »

I "found" the issue of my NUC8 not having HDR Toggle work. It is because it is in YCbCr420 mode instead of RGB when at 50 or 60hz..... and the intel mgt panel does not provide any ability to show or select either bit depth or colour space. Looks like the EDID negotiation is not revealing 8-Bit (with dither) UHD @ 50hz for some reason as an option, yet all devices are HDMI 2.0a.... unless it is the long HDMI Cable Run that is in the wall, which I'll need to test that at some point. The odd thing is I noticed this Intel behaviour when testing the iGPU on my i9-11900K (instead of the 3090). Exact same issue when on the Intel iGPU but not when I use the 3090 (with the same AVR and Screen), so something is up.... but I'm not sure how to trouble shoot it.

Edit: The Epson TW9300 only has a 10gbps HDMI Chip. That explains it.

jmone · « **Reply #42 on:** October 21, 2021, 10:11:07 pm »

..and one other thing, Win11 Startup has Teams, One drive etc set to run but as I set my HTPC to logon automatically using a local account I get pop ups asking me to link/setup Hello. Turning off Teams, One Drive in startup prevents these popups

lello · « **Reply #43 on:** October 23, 2021, 10:34:09 am »

I too would like to update mobo and htpc cpu, not only to be able to install win11 but also to solve some mobo problems.

The question is: just change the hardware, install the drivers and everything works or (as I think) should I rely on Acronis True Image using the specific function to copy the image to dissimilar hardware?

jmone · « **Reply #44 on:** October 23, 2021, 04:34:02 pm »

Well I guess this is not the "recommended" way, but I just put the "old" (or a clone) of the HDD/SSD/NVME into the new PC and Windows seems to just update itself for the new HW. I'm not too worried on the HTPC if this method goes awry as in the end it is really only running MC in as a library server client so it's not a big issues doing a clean install as their is no data to install.

narbi · « **Reply #45 on:** November 06, 2021, 07:25:11 am »

Some feedback on my testing, after Win11 upgrade yesterday, using a LG C8 Oled + 1080Ti latest driver, lastest .80 JR28.

- Perma HDR is not an option, as it uses gamma 2.2 for HDR>SDR and it looks washed out on an oled. Pluge pattern confirms it, it brightens out of black way too quickly (bar 17 is perfectly seen in daylight, which should not be)
- Resulting from the above, SDR movies look washed out
- HDR movies look fine but lack punch (compared to madvr doing the hdr switch)

When configured without OS HDR enabled, madvr switching :

- SDR is fine, as is desktop
- HDR is fine, but if you hover the jriver menu on top, it will switch to SDR mapping and revert back once menu goes away (TV remaining in HDR mode)
>> This is an OS or madvr issue, same behaviour observed with MPC-BE, but just good to now that even with HDR off, windows will do its thing. Perhaps jriver could be flagged as HDR capable so that this doesn't happen ? Looks like the OS thinks jriver is an SDR app with encapsulated HDR capability ?
- After having played an HDR movie, any SDR movie will look completely dark. Hovering the menu gives normal picture again, until it's hidden, goes dark again
>> Could be an OS or driver or madvr issue, but interesting thing is, if I shutdown jriver completely and restart, SDR plays fine again

Imho, OS HDR will be usable the day we get to choose the gamma target for SDR mapping, before that, no thanks, it turns an oled into a LCD.
It's a huge step on the right direction, but we're not there yet.

Hendrik · « **Reply #46 on:** November 06, 2021, 07:40:36 pm »

Quote from: narbi on November 06, 2021, 07:25:11 am

Perhaps jriver could be flagged as HDR capable so that this doesn't happen ? Looks like the OS thinks jriver is an SDR app with encapsulated HDR capability ?

Media Center is an SDR app though, and not HDR, if you were to display the popup windows etc in HDR mode, they would be way too bright, and any colors would be off.

Quote from: narbi on November 06, 2021, 07:25:11 am

>> Could be an OS or driver or madvr issue, but interesting thing is, if I shutdown jriver completely and restart, SDR plays fine again

This is an issue with madVR, it doesn't properly terminate HDR mode, so it "sticks" until you restart the application - in this case MC.

narbi · « **Reply #47 on:** November 07, 2021, 02:04:33 am »

I had the issue you're talking about in 10, but it was different, and a driver issue (had to rollback), the TV remained in HDR mode.
This time TV goes HDR in and out just fine and colors are not all over the place, it looks like you have black levels set for 16-235 and you force the display to 0-255, something like that.
Could be the same issue presenting differently though. Unfortunately with 11 we are stuck with the latest drivers and their bugs.

And madvr doesn't like the MC OSD, huge stutters when it's open. I had it in 10 too, but nowhere near that bad.

Other than that, as long as OS HDR is off, everything runs perfectly fine in 11.

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Author Topic: Windows 11 Testing (Read 10518 times)