Topic: 4k HDR colors are muted with 1030 video card (Read 4198 times)

curiousMonkey · « **on:** September 04, 2021, 04:35:17 pm »

I am trying to get HDR content working with MC27 and my NVidia 1030 video card. Initially I noticed that my JVC projector was accepting an HDR stream and automatically enabling dynamic tone mapping. Unfortunately the colors looked muted to me and I discovered that the signal was described as 8-but RGB. My Bluray player sends a stream that is described as 12-bit YUV. Obviously a PC deals with RGB but somehow the information is not getting translated correctly.

I found this old thread that described the issue with MadVR:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,125636.msg870371.html#msg870371

After switching my Windows desktop to 12-bit using the NVidia control panel, the projector reports that the stream is 12-bit RGB. Unfortunately the colors still look muted compared to the Bluray player.

What else am I missing?

tij · « **Reply #1 on:** September 05, 2021, 07:25:23 am »

If using madvr ... press ctrl+j while movie playing to bring MadVR info screen ... screen cap that and post it here

curiousMonkey · « **Reply #2 on:** September 05, 2021, 01:00:24 pm »

I played around with the MadVR settings a little bit and now have two configurations with slightly different behavior.

1) The full color gamut seems to be passed through and looks very close to the Bluray. However the projector reports it as SDR.
a) If I change the Windows Display setting to enable HDR, the image is received by the projector as HDR.
b) This also forces the desktop to report some sort of pseudo HDR information and washes it out. In addition it forces the projector into high lamp mode all the time.

2) I changed the MadVR setting for the device HDR from "Let MadVR decide" to "pass HDR metadata".
a) The projector detects this as HDR but I am back to the muted 12-bit colors with everything looking washed out.

I will attach two screen shots showing the MC output, labeled SDR and HDR.

tij · « **Reply #3 on:** September 06, 2021, 12:26:16 am »

Read this first to understand little bit on what HDR is and what involves in displaying it ... https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,126153.0.html

You have to give more info for ppl to be able to help ... otherwise is just guess work ... at the moment all i know is you using Nvidia GTX1080, which is powerful enough not to cause any performance issues

1. What JVC projector you using? If it supports HDR, i would assume it support 4K ... yet your MadVR is scaling 4K resolution to HD (1920x1080)

2. Never use Windows HDR ... its rubbish for movie watching (at least on Windows 10 and lower) ... turn that off ... and let MadVR manage HDR switching

3. For each scenario you provided screen shots ... can you post screen cap of MadVR HDR settings

curiousMonkey · « **Reply #4 on:** September 06, 2021, 07:31:51 pm »

The projector is a JVC NX7, it definitely has no problem with 4K HDR.
I started collecting the screen shot for MadVR but since there are a lot of screens that don't seem related to this issue, I only selected a few.
I think I did change the Quality Setting to Max (requires Medium range GPU) but I don't see that highlighted now.
Is there a specific setting that forces 4K resolution down to 2K?

The interesting thing is that now the MadVR output shows a 4K image and the HDR is correct.
I can't verify the desktop settings again because I have turned off the projector and I am accessing the Windows system via a VNC.
That seems to change the desktop from 4K resolution back to 2K for some reason.

Start by reviewing SettingsWorking file to see the latest MadVR output.

tij · « **Reply #5 on:** September 06, 2021, 11:13:04 pm »

You didnt show HDR setting for madVR (you only showed display mode)

tij · « **Reply #6 on:** September 06, 2021, 11:21:52 pm »

Also .. what gpu you using? ... rendering times seems high for gtx1080

There are problems with your setting ... but driving now

curiousMonkey · « **Reply #7 on:** September 07, 2021, 03:43:00 pm »

The card is actually a 1030, the only one that will fit in my tiny case.
I don’t know why I used 1080, but I have updated the thread now with the correct card.

curiousMonkey · « **Reply #8 on:** September 07, 2021, 10:51:30 pm »

I collected the output again using HDR modes MadVRChoose and Passthru.
Unfortunately the system is now exhibiting the stuck in HDR mode issue I reported here:https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,130367.0.html.
It was necessary to reset the PC between runs.

I think the display looked pretty reasonable in both configurations and was the correct resolution.
What other issues do you see?

tij · « **Reply #9 on:** September 08, 2021, 12:32:04 pm »

First check your Nvidia driver version ... there are some drivers that send "bogus" hdr metadata ... link below details this

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=176013

Senond ... 1030 is a bit underpowered for 4k ... here is guide on hardware for 4k madvr ... recommended vram on gpu is 4gb for ngu upscaling ... and its truly amazing upscaling

~~https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=176013~~
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/guide-building-a-4k-htpc-for-madvr.2364113/

Last ... your settings have problem switching refresh rate ... so your 23fps stuff is showing at 24fps ... this will cause some micristutter now and then as some frames need to be repeated ... but deal with that later once figured hdr

Ps. I assume UHD disc played from bluray player shows good hdr?

curiousMonkey · « **Reply #10 on:** September 08, 2021, 08:22:56 pm »

The installed driver was dated 9-30-20 but the only version information I found was a Microsoft release number.
Since Windows Update was not selecting anything for installation I downloaded the latest driver (471.96) from Nvidia.

I installed that and loaded the same movie. The results were almost the same. The first test using HDR passthru switched the projector to HDR mode but it remained in that mode even when I stopped the movie and returned to the desktop.

I switched to "Let MadVR Decide" and MC27 stopped working. I restarted it and the movie came up in HDR mode but there was no sound. I assume this is related to an issue with the NVidia HD audio driver which was likely updated as part of my new driver install. I restarted Windows and audio was restored.
The image in this configuration looked fine as well. However when I returned to the desktop, the projector switched back to SDR this time.

I think there is some other issue causing the HDR lock. It seems to come and go randomly as we try and debug the color issue here.

Movies do look great coming from the bluray player.

curiousMonkey · « **Reply #11 on:** September 09, 2021, 09:15:12 pm »

Tonight I noticed that 4k images were being down converted to 2k by MadVR.
I switched from Red October Advanced to Red October Standard and that seems to help.
Unfortunately the Ctrl-J output is not available so I can’t analyze the settings.

I will leave it this way for a while and see how things go, it is frustrating to see the behavior change each day when I turn in the projector,

arcspin · « **Reply #12 on:** September 10, 2021, 01:20:25 am »

You will always need to tone map your UHD/HDR movies when using a projector, as a projector usually only have like 30-130 nits to work with.
Normally when you use a projector with HTPC and madvr you set madvr to "tone map HDR using pixel shaders" and often also use one of the madvr betas that are around. Madvr beta 113 is the last beta that don't have any date constrains and still works really well.
(madvr usually do the best tone mapping when comparing between a projector tone mapping and madvr tone mapping)

Also, for me I set the NVIDIA resolution to 8bpc, RGB and Full dynamic.
Madvr does an excellent job in handling banding so for me the 8bpc works the best.

This forum thread is a great resource of information.
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/madvr-player-support-thread.2215490/

Including picture of my HDR settings using Beta 113

tij · « **Reply #13 on:** September 10, 2021, 01:39:57 am »

Quote from: arcspin on September 10, 2021, 01:20:25 am

You will always need to tone map your UHD/HDR movies when using a projector, as a projector usually only have like 30-130 nits to work with.
Normally when you use a projector with HTPC and madvr you set madvr to "tone map HDR using pixel shaders" and often also use one of the madvr betas that are around. Madvr beta 113 is the last beta that don't have any date constrains and still works really well.
(madvr usually do the best tone mapping when comparing between a projector tone mapping and madvr tone mapping)

Also, for me I set the NVIDIA resolution to 8bpc, RGB and Full dynamic.
Madvr does an excellent job in handling banding so for me the 8bpc works the best.

This forum thread is a great resource of information.
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/madvr-player-support-thread.2215490/

Including picture of my HDR settings using Beta 113

He cannot tone map with MadVR ... his 1030 is too underpowered with too little vram

Sorry for not respinding in a while ... just could not figure out what can go wrong yet

tij · « **Reply #14 on:** September 10, 2021, 04:02:57 am »

Quote from: curiousMonkey on September 09, 2021, 09:15:12 pm

Tonight I noticed that 4k images were being down converted to 2k by MadVR.
I switched from Red October Advanced to Red October Standard and that seems to help.
Unfortunately the Ctrl-J output is not available so I can’t analyze the settings.

I will leave it this way for a while and see how things go, it is frustrating to see the behavior change each day when I turn in the projector,

RO Standard does not use MadVR - so not ctrl+j

tij · « **Reply #15 on:** September 10, 2021, 04:06:44 am »

Quote from: curiousMonkey on September 09, 2021, 09:15:12 pm

Tonight I noticed that 4k images were being down converted to 2k by MadVR.
I switched from Red October Advanced to Red October Standard and that seems to help.
Unfortunately the Ctrl-J output is not available so I can’t analyze the settings.

I will leave it this way for a while and see how things go, it is frustrating to see the behavior change each day when I turn in the projector,

Seems need to address your resolution and refresh rate first ...

See attach screenshot of your setting. In box enter mode that MadVR allow to switch ... enter following

2160p23,2160p24,2160p29,2160p30,2160p25,2160p50,2160p59,2160p60

That should cover all pissible scenarios

curiousMonkey · « **Reply #16 on:** September 10, 2021, 07:22:44 pm »

I added the resolution settings mentioned above and tried watching Flash Gordon.
The picture was back in 4k (no downconversion) but once again the colors look washed out with a lot of additional brightness in picture. I stopped watching the file and switched to the 4k Bluray where everything looked fine.

It sounds like I need to consider upgrading my video card to a GTX 1650 LP or build a new HTPC with a larger case that has room for a full size video card. Both options will likely be delayed while GPU prices remain artificially high.

I am not sure I want to bother with MadVRs tone mapping. The JVC projector firmware does a good job with tone mapping and knows other important details like the age of the lamp and the size of the screen.

tij · « **Reply #17 on:** September 10, 2021, 11:15:32 pm »

Ok ... now resolution anf refresh rate done ... back to HDR

... does your projector enter HDR mode when playing with "HDR passthrough" and "send HDR metadata to display"

... try not to use mouse so the cursor dissapear ... if mouse trigger play control to be displayed ... hdr is lossed

... also do you have secondary monitor connected to you htpc?

curiousMonkey · « **Reply #18 on:** September 11, 2021, 09:08:07 am »

The projector enters HDR mode with either "Let MadVR decide" or "HDR passthrough (send metadata to display)".

I had not noticed any issue with mouse movement. I generally try and use JRemote from my iPad to control MC27.

There is no secondary monitor. When I need to configure the HTPC without turning on the projector I use a VNC session from my office.

tij · « **Reply #19 on:** September 11, 2021, 10:33:59 am »

Did you turn off Windows HDR ... it must be off

curiousMonkey · « **Reply #20 on:** September 11, 2021, 12:48:35 pm »

Yes, HDR is off.

tij · « **Reply #21 on:** September 11, 2021, 03:09:15 pm »

Ok ... this is getting weird ...

Make sure your desktop is on RGB ... if that fails

While movie playing ... try to unplug hdmi cable from pc ... wait a bit ... and plug it back

EDIT: also try plugging your pc into hdmi port that your bluray player is using

curiousMonkey · « **Reply #22 on:** September 11, 2021, 06:48:11 pm »

I think there are some subtle interactions between the video driver and my VNC sessions.

When I checked the system this afternoon, I noticed that the desktop was back in 1920x1080 mode. This is the same mode that is forced on the VNC session because I have been unable to find the setting that forces the resolution to 4K. On other occasions while we were debugging this problem I checked the desktop resolution and it was still 4K.

MC27 insisted on down converting the RGB 12-bit 4K image to 2K. I could not find any setting to override this behavior. I reset the system and MC27 immediately stopped doing this and provided a solid 4K image that looked like it had reasonable colors. I was watching the movie "Fury" and although I still think the 4K image from the bluray looks a little better, I could definitely watch the stream from MC27. I need to try watching some other movies and comparing them to the 4K image.

I am using the "Passthru HDR" setting with the "provide metadata" box checked. Based on the data provided from Ctrl-J, I don't think it is possible to watch a 60 fps movie with the 1030 and not drop a lot of frames. Rendering time averaged around 40ms but hit 46-51 ms about once every 5 seconds.

JimH · « **Reply #23 on:** September 11, 2021, 06:53:23 pm »

What happens if you don't use VNC?

curiousMonkey · « **Reply #24 on:** September 11, 2021, 07:45:34 pm »

I will have to try using MC27 without accessing the system from VNC for a few days.

I also just discovered that I can create a custom resolution for the VNC that matches my standard desktop (3840x2160, 12-bit full range color, 24Hz) using the NVidia control panel. I tried using regEdit to force the VNC into 3840x2160 but that did not work.

tij · « **Reply #25 on:** September 11, 2021, 09:29:32 pm »

Quote from: tij on September 11, 2021, 03:09:15 pm

Ok ... this is getting weird ...

Make sure your desktop is on RGB ... if that fails

While movie playing ... try to unplug hdmi cable from pc ... wait a bit ... and plug it back

EDIT: also try plugging your pc into hdmi port that your bluray player is using

Did you try that? ... before trying it ... restart PC and dont use VNC at all before this test

PS. Unlikely you can watch 4k @60fps with 1030 ... you can try simpler chroma upsampling algorithm ... Jinx is a bit intensive

EDIT: if above does not work ... try to connect pc directly to jvc to see its not Marantz that causing the trouble

curiousMonkey · « **Reply #26 on:** September 25, 2021, 02:50:33 pm »

I found it very difficult to go many days without accessing my HTPC from the VNC.
It is just a lot easier to avoid turning on the projector when I want to update the configuration or import more files.

However the HDR problem is manageable now and I think it may be related to the multiple profiles caused by the projector and VNC session. I have not been watching that much HDR content but once or twice I was forced to reboot the HTPC so that the video settings of the 1030 were fully restored.

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Author Topic: 4k HDR colors are muted with 1030 video card (Read 4198 times)