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[JimH]

I just returned from a two week drive from Minnesota to the East Coast, including New York State, New York City, Boston, and Maine.  The car was a Mercedes EQS580.  I've had it for six months now, but until two weeks ago, I had only charged it at home.

Aside from seeing some old friends, I wanted to understand how feasible it was to travel charger to charger.  Here's what I learned.

Mercedes Isn't a Tesla
It can't use their network.  Nobody else can.  It's a closed network, except in Europe where the EU has forced them to open it up.  Tesla is talking about doing that here in the U.S.  Talking.

A Charger Is Not A Charger
They vary from recharging a vehicle in about 45 minutes to several days.  Fast Chargers are essential and there aren't many Charger Stations and they often have broken chargers.

The Apps Are A Challenge
Every network has its own app.  Parts of each work.

The Charging Networks are Primitive
On my route through Chicago, i used ChargePoint and Electrify America.  There were a lot of EVgo chargers in the Chicago area, but I didn't try them.  I should have.

Electrify America is owned by VW and has Siemens as a major investor.  Around $2.5billion invested so far.  More coming.  It's fallout from the settlement with the U.S. over Dieselgate.  Their support is good.

Plan Ahead
There are so few chargers that you need to know before you go.  Several times, my range was in the 20's before I could get to a fast charger.

Bring A Book
My "quick" charges were about 40 minutes.  This turned out to be no problem.  You meet other people who are in the same boat, learn from them, find something to eat, and walk a little.

Plugshare Helps
It's an app that another fellow charger recommended and it's good.  Oddly, you have to enter your trip first in a desktop browser. 

GPS Is Good
On Google Maps and on my car's map, you can find chargers.  It's awkward but helpful.  On Google, you just search for EV charger.  On the car, the map has a search window with a EV Charger icon.

Walmart Is Your Friend
Electrify America has the largest fast charger network and they have a partnership with Walmart.

Look Carefully
The chargers are all over the place and sometimes hard to find.  Plugshare has pictures.  Google sometimes can direct you there.

It was sold to EVgo last year, so its cross system approach may go away.

Bottom Line
It works, but it's not very reliable or easy.  It reminds me of the early days of the software business when software generally didn't work well.

If EV's continue to gain market share, the charging networks will have to expand rapidly.

[JimH]

Pictures:

https://pix01.jriver.com/8M1%400cxw -- Visible

[BillT]

There's a tool called a Better Route Planner which a lot of people in Europe use. It looks as if it covers the US as well.

I have an EV but I haven't used a public charger yet.

[JimH]

Thanks.  I'll check it out.

[JimH]

Chargers are rated by how many kW's they can provide per hour.

110 AC -- The typical outlet in a U.S. home.   It will provide something like 3 miles of range for every hour connected.  Works until you have something better.

AC Level 2 Charger
220 AC -- The typical home charger is similar to a 40 or 50 Amp dryer outlet.  It works well for home charging, providing around 30 miles of range per hour. So if you plug the car in overnight, you get around 300 miles.  You can find these on the road, but they're not worth using for anything other than overnight charging.

When you use AC chargers, the car does the conversion to DC

DC Chargers
Often referred to as "DC Fast Chargers" or "DCFC".

These are far better than Level 2 chargers.  They will be rated at 50 to 350 kWh.  That's the nominal rating, but the real charging rate is often half of that or less. At 150 or 350, you might get 70 to 175.  Depending on the car, this will get you about 200 miles in a little less than an hour.

As I understand it, the car can use anything with a compatible plug. The car will tell the charger how fast It can receive power.  This means that you can plug into any Any charger without risking damage to the car.

The charger will display the power it's delivering. It will start out at a lower number and work toward the maximum when it is charging a battery that isn't very low or high.

[JimH]

From recent news articles:

"1% of the cars on the road in the US are EV's"

"From 2018 through 2020, Tesla had about 80% of the EV market. Its share dropped to 71% in 2021 and has continued to decline", said Stephanie Brinley, an S&P associate director.

"Electric vehicles account for roughly only 6% of new car sales in the whole of the country. That number would also be much lower without California since of the ~576,000 EVs sold in the US so far in 2022, over 250,000 were in California."

[antenna]

I just returned from a two week drive from Minnesota to the East Coast, including New York State, New York City, Boston, and Maine.  The car was a Mercedes EQS580.  I've had it for six months now, but until two weeks ago, I had only charged it at home.

Aside from seeing some old friends, I wanted to understand how feasible it was to travel charger to charger.  Here's what I learned.

Bring A Book
My "quick" charges were about 40 minutes.  This turned out to be no problem.  You meet other people who are in the same boat, learn from them, find something to eat, and walk a little....

So it seems that traveling  via an EV is a bit different.  It seems to be more social, meeting and learning from those you meet on your trip.

Good for folk on vacation with time to spare.

But I suggest that those who need to get to a destination with, ummm... less time to spare, may need an alternative.  I wonder how the rental car industry will step up to resolve that one?

 

[JimH]

It adds some time but it's not terrible. I did 1500 miles in 2 days coming back. Recharging makes a nice break.

[antenna]

...Recharging makes a nice break.

Yeah, that's the impression I get.

But when I want to visit my relatives for Christmas, I have a concern whether that "nice break" is imposed upon me, or whether I look forward to it.

In my experience, my current feeling is the former. 

Which, to be honest, is why I still own a gas-based vehicle.

The EV vehicles cannot get me to my Christmas destination without that "nice break" that I do not want.

So, I've been actively looking for EV alternatives to get me to my destination.  Which is why I mentioned how the rental car industry might be handling this, let's  say, business opportunity. 

[cncb]

They are making some progress on charging (break) time.  Our Hyundai Ioniq 5 is supposed to charge to 80% in just 18 minutes on the 350 kW DC chargers.  I have not tried a long trip yet, but I figure I will be ready for a short break after ~3 hours of driving.

[marko]

So putting aside the terrible lack of investment in charging infrastructure, let's imagine for a moment that that was all great...

Electric vehicles are being pushed as the the way forward, and at the moment, they're all new sparkly, lights everywhere, modern and in most cases attractive, but, the burning question for me, is, how long do they last? You could buy a well looked after diesel vehicle that's eight to ten years old and still get another, five years or so out of it. Surely, after eight to ten years, the batteries in an EV would be wasted, rendering it in reality, scrap value only? Is that a whole new industry ready to boom dealing with all those batteries?

What's the answer? An end to private vehicle ownership and we all shift to leasing? Gonna put a lot of people off the road, right?

[marko]

As for charging, my idea? Ditch the pump style plug in chargers and place some kind of qi charging strip in every street, everywhere. They do it for fibre, so why not? Then all the vehicle manufacturers use the same standard, and, whenever you park at the side of the road, a contract drops from under the vehicle, and charging commences. Tadaa. Guessing it won't happen as it would be hard to make profitable though I still think it's a great idea

[BillT]

Electric vehicles are being pushed as the the way forward, and at the moment, they're all new sparkly, lights everywhere, modern and in most cases attractive, but, the burning question for me, is, how long do they last? You could buy a well looked after diesel vehicle that's eight to ten years old and still get another, five years or so out of it. Surely, after eight to ten years, the batteries in an EV would be wasted, rendering it in reality, scrap value only?

I think that's a bit pessimistic. Typically lithium batteries are quoted as having 3000-6000 charge/discharge cycles. My car has a nominal range of 190 miles, at 12,000 miles a year that's 67 cycles a year or 44 years at 3000 cycles. Lion batteries do deteriorate with age, but that's a bit of an unknown.

The Nissan Leaf has been available for over 10 years and they still seem to be usable albeit with a reduced range; they didn't have particularly good battery management so more modern cars should be better. My Hyundai has an 8 year warranty on the battery, so I'd think the makers are reasonably confident there won't be many issues.

As to charging de facto standards have developed. In Europe it's the CCS connector (and Tesla connector); you can now use a CCS connector with a Tesla charger and vice versa. In the US it's the SAE J1772 (and Tesla). The chargers are high voltage and high current so installing distributed charging on every street is likely to be disruptive and expensive.

[JimH]

As to charging de facto standards have developed. In Europe it's the CCS connector (and Tesla connector); you can now use a CCS connector with a Tesla charger and vice versa. In the US it's the SAE J1772 (and Tesla). The chargers are high voltage and high current so installing distributed charging on every street is likely to be disruptive and expensive.

In the U.S., for fast DC charging, the CCS connector is also used.  But Europe uses CCS-Type 2 and the U.S. uses CCS-Type 1.

So many standards to choose from.

The picture here shows the different types:
https://www.evexpert.eu/eshop1/knowledge-center/connector-types-for-ev-charging-around-the-world

[JimH]

In spite of all the challenges, I think that EV's are the future if we want to address global warming.

Plus ... they're cool.  Much more quiet and smooth.  And sparkly lights.

[DJLegba]

In spite of all the challenges, I think that EV's are the future if we want to address global warming.

Maybe in the future, but right now you're driving a car fueled 26% by coal (according to Minnesota's electricity sources). In China about a quarter of all new cars are EVs. That's a lot of coal cars.

[JimH]

Maybe in the future, but right now you're driving a car fueled 26% by coal (according to Minnesota's electricity sources).

A couple years ago, I enrolled in Centerpoint's program to purchase only renewable electricity, both at home and at work.  It costs a little more (15%?) but I'm not burning any coal.

https://my.xcelenergy.com/s/renewable

[JimH]

On the way from NY to Maine, I stopped to see our customer Zootsuit.  Alan has been a customer for a couple of decades, but we'd never met.  I was treated to a gyro in Manchester, NH. 

Thanks again, Alan!

Pictures:
https://pix01.jriver.com/gallery/8D12431D-7EA0-495D-9EA2-775091458CB9/Zootsuit/thumbnails.html

[cncb]

Plus ... they're cool.  Much more quiet and smooth.  And sparkly lights.

Indeed.  And crazy fast!

[JimH]

Indeed.  And crazy fast!

Yes!

[hoyt]

Maybe in the future, but right now you're driving a car fueled 26% by coal (according to Minnesota's electricity sources). In China about a quarter of all new cars are EVs. That's a lot of coal cars.

I saw this article get published this week.  Some really interesting things in here that directly address some of the FUD around EV power and environmental burden. 

https://www.motortrend.com/features/truth-about-electric-cars-ad-why-you-are-being-lied-to/

I recently sold a 2014 Spark EV that was marketed as an 85 miles per charge EV.  In 2022 it still got about 80 miles per charge.  And that was with some fairly "old" battery tech by tech standards.  The Nissan Leaf is often used to demonstrate the opposite (they lost a lot of range quickly), but their batteries weren't properly temperature controlled.  Most EVs now pay attention to that.  I replaced it with a newer EV that gets 250'ish miles of range.  I'll likely never buy another ICE vehicle, there's very little reason to, and I think that's true for almost all families (especially as a second car).

I was in Europe over the summer and rented an EV for a roadtrip.  The charging infrastructure was quite impressive.  I never had an issue getting to a station when I needed to.  On the highways, they had 350 kw chargers at the rest stops.  You pulled over, plugged in, went to the restroom, and the car had added 100+miles of range.  In the smaller older cities, there were slow chargers (L2) all over the place.  So if you went in for dinner, you could plug in, enjoy dinner and have 20-30 miles of charge added while you eat.  Almost every hotel I stayed at had chargers in their lot.  It's a change of behavior, but once you're used to it, it's very convenient. 

[rec head]

I have only needed to charge outside of the house once on a trip. It turned out to be a fun time because one of the other EVs charging was also a pickup. We gave each other you show me yours and I'll show you mine tours. When we got the truck we did plug in briefly at chargers just to make sure the hardware and software were working on different networks.

Some clarification on charging on the road. Any EV can use use a Tesla Destination Charger if you have an adapter. They are slow but effective. I'm guessing they vary in their power output but they are like using a dedicated home charger. I used it in a state park while I was riding bikes and it was so easy.

One of the problems with road tripping is the lack of chargers. The higher the battery is charged the slower it charges. 80% to 90% takes longer than 10% to 20%. Ideally you'd make make more frequent but shorter stops and go from maybe 10% to 50%. But the lack of chargers on the open road means you often have to charge up to 90% to get to the next charger.

Because I have a charger in my garage I wonder how much time I'll actually save by not going to gas stations. Sure on road trips I'll be spending more time at a charger but that is the only time I'll ever have to spend more than the 30 seconds it takes to plug it in when I park. We don't even plug it in every time. Over the life of the vehicle I plan on saving time.

[antenna]

Maybe in the future, but right now you're driving a car fueled 26% by coal (according to Minnesota's electricity sources). In China about a quarter of all new cars are EVs. That's a lot of coal cars.

Yeah, but that 26% depends upon where you are.

But to the point of your comment,, yes, there is work to do.

So, let's get on with it....


We are all in favor of progress, providing we can have it without change.
    - Morrie Brickman

[tzr916]

I swear, I'm not trying to be a Debbie downer. In fact, I have 8kW of solar panels on my roof, and considering an EV for my next grocery-getter, but...

Progress has some truly evil consequences
https://restofworld.org/2022/indonesia-china-ev-nickel/

Tesla had signed a five-year contract with two Chinese nickel-processing companies operating out of Sulawesi. The nickel materials will be used in Tesla’s lithium batteries.

And currently generating the electricity to power/charge anything requires using 3x more fossil fuels than renewable sources
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3

Fossil fuels      61.0%
Nuclear            18.9%
Renewables    19.8%

Guess I should add more solar panels to charge my EV

[JimH]

And then there is the population aspect of global warming.

The world's human population has more than tripled in my lifetime.  3X the number cars, 3X the fossil fuel.

[JimH]

I swear, I'm not trying to be a Debbie downer. In fact, I have 8kW of solar panels on my roof, and considering an EV for my next grocery-getter, but...

It would be fun to see what others have done with solar and other renewables, if you wouldn't mind starting a thread.

[DJLegba]

I'd like to recommend a book by Vaclav Smil, "How the World Really Works". He's not a "climate change denier" and he has no political ax to grind. He's an interdisciplinary scientist at the University and Manitoba and he understands that we need to clean things up, but he looks at the numbers as a scientist. It's a short book with no particular political slant.

[KingSparta]

I will leave everything I own so my son can buy an EV after I pass.

[JimH]

arstechnica article on the Federal effort to improve the charging network.  $5 billion.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/02/heres-how-the-government-plans-to-make-ev-chargers-common-and-reliable/

[retiredteacherguy]

I just returned from a two week drive from Minnesota to the East Coast, including New York State, New York City, Boston, and Maine.  The car was a Mercedes EQS580. 

The design, fit and finish on the EQS looks amazing

[JimH]

It is.  It's by far the best car I've ever had.  It's just a pleasure to drive.  Or even sit in.

[retiredteacherguy]

I can definitely see myself getting an EV for my next car. But I also want solar on the house, and I don’t want the panels. The Tesla Roof is too expensive with limited availability here in Illinois. I wish a competitor would come up with something similar. I don’t want panels on the roof if I can avoid it.

[rec head]

Why don't you want panels? Is there a reason besides the looks? I haven't done much research into them and wondering if there is a downside of panels vs Tesla.

[retiredteacherguy]

I just really don’t like the look

[JimH]

I'm starting to plan another trip this July to the East Coast.  This time in an EQE350.

[DJLegba]

What happened to the Mercedes EQS580 you got two years ago?

[cncb]

Leased?

[JimH]

I leased both cars.  I really didn't want the S-class car, but it was their first electric sedan.

[JimH]

Article on EV charging transition to Tesla's North American Charging Standard plug. 
https://www.notebookcheck.net/America-s-largest-EV-charging-network-adopts-Tesla-s-NACS-connector.728656.0.html

It has a table of existing chargers by network.

[JimH]

Good article on Electrify America:  https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1140079_electrify-america-tesla-connectors-800v-charging

I'm heading across country again in a week to see my daughter in Woodstock and some friends in Massachusetts and Maine.

[JimH]

I just spent 10 days traveling and did almost 4,000 miles in the EV, a Mercedes EQE 350.  Minneapolis to Maine and back.

The charging situation is still only fair.  Finding them takes some work and it seemed that about half the time, chargers weren't in service or were charging more slowly than they should.  There were a lot of other technical problems, like screens that were dark or credit card processing that didn't work.

I was still able to make the 1200 mile trip to New York in two days (one long) and the 1500 mile trip back from Maine in a day and a half (one very long).  So the time to charge isn't all that significant.  You have to take breaks anyway, to use the restroom or buy some junk food.  It probably added two hours to the trip each way, but I walked more than I normally would have.

Unless you have a Tesla, it's hard assembling information about available chargers.  Google Maps shows them but it's tedious to explore.  Mercedes only shows those within about 20 miles, and you often need to find them further out.  Electrify America has a good app, but you can't enter beginning and end points.  Plugshare has too much information and is hard to use to find a charger out very far.  And so on.

Some charging networks like Chargepoint have a lot of chargers, but most chargers aren't high enough wattage to charge quickly.  62.5 Kw isn't fast enough.  You need 150 Kw chargers to charge in half an hour or so.  350's are better.  The chargers seem to put out around half of their rating.

I just read an article in the Washington Post that says that there are 140,000 chargers, but only 22% are considered fast.  The same article said that 7 EV makers are banding together to add 40,000 new chargers, beginning in 2024.  https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/07/26/ev-fast-charger-gm-hyundai-honda-kia-bmw-mercedes/

Anyway, it was really nice to get out on the open road and see a lot of scenery.  I had a nice walk on the docks of a marina in Portsmouth, New Hampshire and dinner at a seafood place on the water in S. Freeport, Maine.  I saw my daughter and two grand-daughters in Woodstock, NY.  No flat tires, no problems.

[DJLegba]

Were you driving while using the apps?

[JimH]

Were you driving while using the apps?

Sometimes.  It's not easy since the apps for charging networks only have their chargers.  Sometimes, if you're low on power, you want to find _any_ charger, so you need to look in more than one app.

[DJLegba]

It probably takes a little extra effort to avoid distractions while driving an EV, but it's important.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/distracted-driving-is-more-dangerous-than-people-realize-new-research-shows/

[KingSparta]

I probably will not get an EV; The DMV may take my license away for being too old, and my son will commit me to a nursing home. I will be the one kicking and screaming.

How I see it:
0. I am not against EVs; I like the Idea.
1. cars need to get more than 300 miles per charge. I think 500 miles would be best for everyone in a perfect world.
2. where are they going to get all this power? When some places have rolling power outages due to Fires\Heating of the day. The power from windmills and solar panels is not going to cut it.
3. why are we not building more Power Stations?
4. all homes need to be rewired for a 400 amp breaker box so that you can charge your car.
5. we should kick the can around and think about Nuclear power.
6. all stores, like Walmart, Target, etc., should have Chargers for all their customers.
7. I know I left some out.

[rec head]

Jim, have you tried https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ ? It is better than your average planning app. It seems like a good way to plan is to figure it out in ABRP then use your preferred nav method to route from station to station.

I'm looking to go from Chicago to the UP next month and the charging situation in Wisconsin stinks. I'm thinking of renting a car instead of dealing with it.

[JimH]

I wasn't aware of it.  Thanks.  I just took a quick look and it looks good.

It is a little bit of an adventure sometimes, but that can be a good thing too.

I just did a route from Milwaukee to Traverse City and that looked OK.

The problem with a fixed route is that there are often reasons you want to change it.  You need to be able to re-build a route quickly, or search in a slightly different area.  It's an interesting problem.

[KingSparta]

Proterra Inc., a major U.S. manufacturer of electric transit buses, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy Monday evening. The company said in a press release that it “intends to continue to operate in the ordinary course of business” as it looks to restructure its operations.

[htnut]

Jim, your original post cites a great reason to buy a Tesla over other EVs.  Their superchargers are rarely down and nearly everywhere.  (Speaking of US).

Glad you love your car.  Likewise, my 2018 Tesla Model 3 (long range) is the best car I’ve ever owned.  Have 55k miles on it.  Every morning I have a “full tank” of “gas”.  No smog checks, oil changes, no trips to the gas station.  Just tires because I love the instant torque :-)  I have a 40A charger installed in my garage next to my elec panel.

I also have solar panels installed, and work from home 90% of the time.  Something fun, I can (in the car or with the app) set the charging rate down to about 24 Amps - which nearly exactly matches my solar production from about 10am-4pm. 

[JimH]

I just returned from a trip from Minneapolis to Santa Fe and Santa Barbara.  I saw a lot of the Southwest.  Open and arid.  4400 miles round trip.

I charged the EQE 350 about 12 times each way.  For the most part, it went well.  It takes about 45 minutes every three hours.  You must plan ahead in less populated places.  That's OK because, while you're waiting for the car to charge, you can look at the maps and the charging app to choose a destination.

Other than the EV app, the car itself can locate chargers.  So can Google Maps if you use the search icon.  Neither are ideal.  They're awkward to use.  For example, Google will display the chargers, but not display the town location until you choose it first.  Mercedes did a better job, surprisingly.  But displaying information during selection isn't very good with either.

Most of the time I used Electrify America.  Many of the locations are good, but some have chargers that don't work.  Occasionally, it was the third or fourth attempt that was successful.  Maintenance is a problem.

Maybe 20% of the time, I had to move the car to a new charger and start again because the charger didn't work.

Unrelated, but the freeways were often bad.  Lots of broken or uneven roadway, enough so that most traffic was driving in the passing lane.  Arizona was the worst.

Advantages of an EV
Someone recently asked me about what it was like driving an EV.  In general, it's great.  I'd never go back to a combustion engine.

Quick to refuel at home.  10 seconds to plug in at night and 10 to unpluug in the morning, about once a week.  Cleaner than using a gas pump.  No credit card needed.

Maintenance is almost none.  It doesn't need antifreeze, oil, or belts.  No engine air filter.

It's quiet and smooth.  No engine vibration.  No drive shaft.

No odor.  You can preheat the car in a garage since there are no fumes.  You can heat or cool the car without starting an engine.

It's fast. 

It's better for global warming.