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[jctcom]

My Yamaha receiver (RX-A2A) has built in DLNA Server / Renderer which will play native DSD up to DSD256 and PCM up to 24Bit / 384 which sounds amazing.  I am able to send music to it via various means including an app called "DS Audio" (Built into Synology DS1821+ where my music is stored)  (Via Web or via iPhone app), Neutron Music Player (iPhone App), BT Amp (iPhone App) and of course JRiver MC (Via PC app or iphone app).  All of these solutions pull the music directly from my networked NAS and push the music to the Yamaha receiver.

For some reason using my favourite solution JRiver MC either via PC App or iPhone app it randomly disconnects and wipes out the playlist.  When it does this the Yamaha DLNA server will disappear from the available "Playing Now" options.  it will reappear after a few moments but the current Play Cue is empty except for the currently playing song (The currently playing song will continue to play to then end after which the player stops playing).  This will happen anywhere from after 5 minutes to up to an hour or so of playing and seems to be totally random as far as I can tell.

None of the other solutions mentioned above have this problem and I have no idea how to begin troubleshooting this issue.  Please note that this issue has been going on for at least a year now from since when I first received my Yamaha RX-A2A. 

I also have a Panasonic 4K Blu-Ray player (DP-UB820) with a built in DLNA server that will accept similar formats including multi-Channel.  Though it converts DSD to PCM 176.4 but still sounds amazing.  JRiver can play to this with not problems but for some reason even though it is supposed to be gapless it does not seem to play gapless (Not just from JRiver but from any app).  But the point is that JRiver will play to this DLNA server without disconnecting.

So there is something that JRiver does not like about the Yamaha RX-A2A and any help in diagnosing / fixing the issue would be much appreciated.

Currently on latest stable release of MC (30.0.93) RX-A2A is on latest Firmware from a week or so ago (Issue has continued through all firmware releases), DS1821+ is also on it's latest stable firmware version (Issue has also persisted through all firmware releases)

Thank you.

Carl.

[jctcom]

Any help on how to troubleshoot this would be much appreciated.

Thanks.

[jctcom]

bump

[JimH]

If you're playing from a NAS, just import the files into MC on a computer.  Don't load the NAS files from its DLNA server.

Devices have different capabilities and idiosyncrasies, depending on how they are connected physically or in which direction you're playing (push or pull).

Media Center has some diagnostic logging in Service > Media Network.

If you have an Android phone, try Bingo SSDP on the Play Store.

You can also experiment with settings.  SetnextAVTransport, for example.

[jctcom]

If you're playing from a NAS, just import the files into MC on a computer.  Don't load the NAS files from its DLNA server.

If by this you meant import the music into a JRiver Database on the local PC, that is how I use JRiver & My music on the NAS. 

If you mean "Move" the music onto a local computer.  Not possible.  I don't have any computers with anywhere near enough space.  nor would I want to.

Devices have different capabilities and idiosyncrasies, depending on how they are connected physically or in which direction you're playing (push or pull).

I am pretty sure that the music is being "Pushed" to the Yamaha RX-A2A and "Pulled" from the NAS if I am understanding this correctly.
Music is on the NAS as it has been since I am not sure when  Probably MC version 17 or something like that.

MC Runs on my Multi-media PC and I guess pulls the music from the NAS and Pushes it to the Yamaha via DLNA.
Network is all hard wired.  No wireless involved.(Other than if I use my iPhone and JRemote to control MC on the PC which should have no affect on this I believe?)

Media Center has some diagnostic logging in Service > Media Network.

I found this but it doesn't mean too much to me.  I have attached a screen shot.  One thing I find strange is in the Source IP addresses.  There are some that end in .35 & .40.  Does DLNA Create it own IP address separate from the device.  The Yamaha device IP ends in .241  NAS ends in .133 and JRiver computer ends in .138.  So I am not sure what all the .35 and .40 are about?
I also see that it has listed the old NAS IP (.135) Briefly?

And of course it has been running fine for 25 minutes while I am putting this post together lol.

If you have an Android phone, try Bingo SSDP on the Play Store.

I don't have an Android phone.  Only an iPhone.  However I have a few apps on the iPhone that I have tested for pulling the music directly off of the NAS (So JRiver not involved) and pushing it to the Yamaha RX-A2A and they have all run for hours with no problems, drop outs or disconnections.

You can also experiment with settings.  SetnextAVTransport, for example.

I have tried these settings and the results seem to be the same.  The problem is it's difficult to predict when it will disconnect.  Sometimes it will run for hours just fine and other times it disconnects every 5 - 15 songs or so.

I am interested in the diagnostic logging service mentioned above though as I can maybe create a log soon after a disconnection that can help?

Thanks.

Carl.

[JimH]

The IP address problems may be a clue.  DLNA doesn't change addresses.  You may have a network issue.  Two DNS servers, for example.  Two DHCP servers.  Use Google to learn.  Simplify your network, if possible.

[jctcom]

Actually now that I look at it I think it is just polling the network for any available devices.

The .40 was actually my TV which I don't really use the internet on it as my NVidia Shield does everything I would want to do much better than the TV does.

So I don't actually think the IP addresses listed are actually an issue.  I do have a lot of connected devices (iPhone, iPad, 2 Nvidia Shields, TV, 2 Blu-ray players, Receiver, Printer etc. etc. etc.   I think these days most of us do.
I did disable internet access for some of my DLNA speakers that don't need it other than to check for the occasional updates which are few and far between.

Is there any way for me to create an actual log that I can generate right after a disconnect and then maybe someone can look at that and figure out why it disconnects?

It does not seem to disconnect when I am listening to full albums.  Just with generated playlists (I use mostly smart playlists if not listening to albums).  I wonder if it has to do with format changes?  I.E. dsd > FLAC > MP3 (Yep still a few of those hanging around) etc... or sample rate changes?  The problem is when it disconnects it clears the attached playlist so I can't see what was about to play.  Only what was in the process of playing.

Carl

[JimH]

We can't diagnose the network problems, sorry.

Disconnect any devices not in use, just to test.  Strange things happen sometimes.

[blgentry]

1.  DLNA vs File Server:  Your NAS can act as a file server doing windows file sharing.  You are probably familiar with mapping a drive, etc.  Your NAS can also act as a DNLA server, which "serves" the audio files through DNLA only, not as regular files. 

I highly recommend mapping a drive and importing your files into MC via this mapped drive.  DLNA serving the files with its own protocol is less sure.  UNC paths (\\my_PC_Name\path\to\file.mpg) are also not recommended.  This is mainly in case you want to change servers later.  Mapping a drive makes it very easy to switch to a different NAS later.

2.  Diagnostic logs:  Yes, MC has a general logging facility.  You need to turn it on first.  Then, once it's on, wait for it to crash.  Once it crashes, you can build a zip file of the logs and send that zip file to JRiver.   Here are more details:
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Logging

Best of luck.
Brian.

[jctcom]

1.  DLNA vs File Server:  Your NAS can act as a file server doing windows file sharing.  You are probably familiar with mapping a drive, etc.  Your NAS can also act as a DNLA server, which "serves" the audio files through DNLA only, not as regular files. 

I highly recommend mapping a drive and importing your files into MC via this mapped drive.  DLNA serving the files with its own protocol is less sure.  UNC paths (\\my_PC_Name\path\to\file.mpg) are also not recommended.  This is mainly in case you want to change servers later.  Mapping a drive makes it very easy to switch to a different NAS later.

2.  Diagnostic logs:  Yes, MC has a general logging facility.  You need to turn it on first.  Then, once it's on, wait for it to crash.  Once it crashes, you can build a zip file of the logs and send that zip file to JRiver.   Here are more details:
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Logging

Best of luck.
Brian.

Thanks Brian.  I do in fact use UNC paths to map all of my music to JRiver on the local PC.  I have used the DLNA server to play music from certain apps on my iphone but I definitely prefer smb method with UNC path.  The only instances where I still use the DLNA server of the NAS is when the APP for some reason is still using SMB 1 protocol as I do not want to open up SMB 1 on the NAS.

Thank  you for the logging info I will look into creating a log to see if I can get further on this issue. 

It's just such a pain as I cannot reproduce it on demand at the moment so I have to wait for it to crash.  Which is not always obvious if I am not watching it since the current song continues playing to the end so I only notice it when the music stops and then go into JRiver to see it has changed to "Player" and upon changing back to the Yamaha the playlist is now empty.  If I get to it soon enough then I see that the Yamaha RX-A2A has disappeared from the Playing Now device list.  But it reappears shortly afterwards with the empty playing now list (Except for the last playing song).

Carl

[blgentry]

An HDMI connection to your receiver would be far more reliable and straight forward. 

If that's not possible for some reason, you might consider the network pathing.  Wireless in particular can be a problem in some cases.  My AV rack has a wired drop to it and has a small 1G ethernet switch in the rack for all of the equipment.  It was having occasional issues when it was wireless.  Now it's rock solid.

There are several DLNA server parameters that you can set in MC.  I know very little about it.  I'm just letting you know they are there.  If you right click on the DNLA device on the left side of MC, you'll get a menu and you can set a few parameters there.

Best of luck.
Brian.

[jctcom]

An HDMI connection to your receiver would be far more reliable and straight forward. 

If that's not possible for some reason, you might consider the network pathing.  Wireless in particular can be a problem in some cases.  My AV rack has a wired drop to it and has a small 1G ethernet switch in the rack for all of the equipment.  It was having occasional issues when it was wireless.  Now it's rock solid.

There are several DLNA server parameters that you can set in MC.  I know very little about it.  I'm just letting you know they are there.  If you right click on the DNLA device on the left side of MC, you'll get a menu and you can set a few parameters there.

Best of luck.
Brian.

Thanks for the suggestions.  I do have an HDMI connection to the receiver and I use that when I want an extended playlist to play without issues whether it encounters Multi-channel or other things that the DLNA on the Yamaha cannot handle.

However JRiver converts everything to PCM when going through HDMI and I have discovered that my Receiver is a very capable DAC (Via WiFi only) which will play native DSD files and I have quite enjoyed the audio quality difference.

The HDMI connection is very good and works well.  But I do find there is something I enjoy more with the pure DSD file playback.  it seems to present a better wider sound stage with more distinct instrument detail to my ears.

I am able to do this without issue with other apps from my iPhone / iPad and other apps such as VLC or Foobar2000 on my PC.  But JRiver which of course is and has been my favourite music playing app for more than a decade now is the only one that has an issue with this.

I don't use wireless except in the case of doing something from my iPhone or iPad.  (Also my Sony TV & Sony Blu-Ray Player since they were too cheap to put a Gigabit connection on it and instead only included a 10 / 100 port.  Because of this the 5G connection is actually faster and more reliable on those devices.  I don't use them for network connection very often in any case as the Apps are poorly done and my NVidia Shield blows them away in every respect).

[jctcom]

Ok so I was finally near the computer when my playlist stopped playing and created a log file (Attched)

This was slighty different in that the Zone changed to "Player" from the "LRoom (RX-A2A)" but when I went back to the "LRoom (RX-A2A)" at least the playlist hadn't been wiped like it normally has in the past.

I was playing off of a Play Doctor Play list with no CLoudPlay songs allowed.

The player just stopped and switched Zones to "Player".  I suspect that the "LRoom (RX-A2A)" probably disappeared from the "Playing Now" list as it has in the past but it had already returned by the time I checked so I can't be sure about that.

Hopefully the Log attached can tell someone something?

Also I wonder if this thread should be moved to the "JRiver Media Center 31 for Windows" since I am on that now?

Thanks.

Carl

[jctcom]

Did it again after about 15 songs.

New log attached.

At least it doesn't seem to be wiping the playlist anymore.

Carl

[jctcom]

Have those logs given anyone a clue behind the disconnects by chance?

Carl.

[larryincmh]

Did you ever figure this out?  My A6A does the same thing and only when using JRiver from my PC to the A6A via the network.  I did install the Audiophile 24bit server for JRiver and that is what I use.  All my music is on a Synology NAS as it sounds like yours is.  Any pulling I do from the A6A to the device using the Yamaha MusicCast interface, or the DS Audio, or other programs works perfectly and for hours.  The JRiver comes and goes randomly just as you describe.  I use Roon too but it will only talk to the A6A via AirPlay or to the ChromeCast I have plugged into the A6A, so no DLNA involved.

BTW my prior RX-A2080 would exhibit the same behavior with JRiver.  I have only Yamaha equipment so nothing else to test it with.

[jctcom]

No.  I never did figure it out.

No response on the logs from anyone in the forum or JRiver either.

I have recently purchased a DAC from SMSL (SMSL DL200)  That works very well.  But of course only stereo.

It's hard to get support on the Yamaha because Yamaha say's it's JRiver because I only have the issue with that. 
JRiver says it's a network issue which they apparently don't support (Even though the issue seems to be how JRiver interacts with the network). 

I still think it's JRiver since I only have the issue when playing directly from there to the Yamaha.

Edit: By the way I am on MC 31 now. 

Carl

[larryincmh]

I am on 32 and it is still doing it. Today I listened to a couple of albums and it didn’t do it through the first one but did about 2/3 of the way through the second album. Of course clicking play restarts the song on the Yamaha but again no indication as to why this happens.  I have an often wondered if it has something to do with the computer refreshing its network connection in someway which normally would be seamless but it knocks JRiver off line. I have not tried to output from the PC to my Chromecast which is plugged into the receiver but may try that tomorrow to see if that glitches off from time to time. I think JRiver will see the Chromecast I’m not sure. I have not tried it before.

[jctcom]

I hadn't actually tried it in awhile.  But today after this additional exchange on the subject I decided to queue up a few DSD256 albums.  It got 4 songs in before it disconnected.

Carl

[larryincmh]

I will play around with this over the next few days and see if I can figure out any pattern. It would be interesting to know if it doesn’t with anything other than Yamaha gear but I didn’t see anybody else really post about that.

[jctcom]

I think part of the issue with troubleshooting this is that there are so few people that have receiver's that even know they are capable of this functionality.  And also how much better the audio quality is when using it.

Let me know what you find out though.

Carl.

[larryincmh]

So since we started chatting about this I decided over the last few days to do a deeper dive. I’m not sure I learned anything. I tried using JRiver on my PC as well as on my Mac laptop sending to my Yamaha A6A.  This was utilizing my library which is on my Synology NAS. Same experience as I have had in the past and which you report in which it plays and just randomly disconnects.  I did come to realize that when it disconnects the receiver then reverts back to playing the last thing that was played via the network through the MusicCast app (in other words it goes back to playing the last thing that was pulled to the receiver by the MC app as opposed to push from another app on a computer or elsewhere). Not sure why that happens.

Wondering if it had anything to do with the library being on the NAS I then went to JRiver on my PC and loaded some music on my PC hard drive into the player and played to the Yamaha. No change in the experience it would just play some and then randomly disconnect, no pattern as to when and why.

Wondering if JRiver had anything to do with it I switched over to Windows Media Center which I came to discover can also send via DLNA to the Yamaha. So I queued up a couple of albums and played them that way. The experience was slightly different in that every so often a song would quit at some point in the middle of the tune but instead of disconnecting altogether it would go to the next song in the playlist. I had that happen a couple of times. I also did have it totally disconnect but that was less frequent than the switching songs.

I don’t know that I have anything more to add right now. I did find a website that talked about DLNA in general and people reporting disconnects. In that thread there was discussion that enabling IPv6 on your local area network could solve the problem. I have just done that on my router because it was turned off and will see tomorrow what happens when I play some albums.

[jctcom]

Wow.  That's great and a great deal farther than I got.

It is good to know that it happens when music is played locally as that was one of the things someone at JRiver wanted me to try.  But I didn't have enough local hard drive space to make a worthwhile attempt.

I still find it strange that I can play to my Panasonic DP-UB820 as well as a few other DLNA adapters and / or speakers for hours with no problems.  But I think I am sending native song only to the DP-UB820 and the Yamaha.  Others are I think sent via PCM after JRiver converts them.  Also my DP-UB820 receives the raw music data but the DSF files are converted to PCM 176.4.  The PCM files are sent to the Yamaha raw though for it to decode.

I also think it's probably applicable that when the Yamaha stops playing it completely drops off of JRiver's list of players.  Whereas the DP-UB820 is always there.  Even when it is turned off and I can't actually play to it.

There must be some sort of "Persistent" option that Allows JRiver to permanently remember when a DLNA device was once available and whatever that switch is is turned off for the Yamaha. 

I have some DLNA devices in my list that have been turned off for months and they are still listed in the JRiver player list even though I would not be able to play to them without turning them on first.

Carl.

[JimH]

There are some settings in MC's DLNA for "broken renderers".  Worth trying.

[jctcom]

There are some settings in MC's DLNA for "broken renderers".  Worth trying.

Hi Jim.  I don't see anything in the settings mentioning "Broken renderers"?

Carl

[JimH]

Right click on the device under Playing Now, and choose DLNA Controller Options.

[larryincmh]

@JimH I didn't know anything about the broken render option either, but have looked at those settings and need to understand from the Wiki help pages what each one does before I start making a bunch of changes. 

@jctcom I also wanted to note that I have two other Yamaha DLNA receivers in my household (a R-N803 and a WXA-50), but both of those are just 2-channel integrated units.  I can see both of them from JRiver just as I can my Yamaha A6A, and took the time to play a large playlist to those today (about 5 hours for each).

No drop-offs whatsoever with those units everything played right through with no glitches.  So something seems to be going on with the AVR units (as my prior Yamaha RX-A2080 did the same thing) that causes these dropouts.  Maybe one of the options under the DLNA management will help with this.  Thanks for pointing out this area.

[JimH]

Make one change at a time.

[larryincmh]

Before I saw @JimH's suggestion to make one change at a time I got on early this morning and went to the DLNA Controller Options section for my Yamaha A6A and changed the following:

Ignore Transport Events - Toggled ON
Ignore Get Postion Failure - Toggled ON
Disable Other Controller Detection - Toggled ON
Disable SetNext Support - LEFT OFF (online reports say toggling this on disables gapless playback)

I can report that after a half a dozen albums played through today there have been NO disconnects. 

I can also report no ill effect on the sound quality I am hearing.

Not sure what changes the toggles actually do, but for now it seems to be playing just fine with no issues.  More to report later.

[jctcom]

That's great.

I actually have done the same thing and so far no disconnects.  But I have not played that many songs with it yet.

Also see the post I made here:  https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,138390.0.html

If I can get that fixed I should be able to play Multi-Channel albums gapless I think.

Carl.

[larryincmh]

I tested this again today and last night with 2-channel music and no disconnects. I am going to hope this is fixed. I tried some multi-channel with mixed results and posted that on your other thread.

[larryincmh]

Hi Carl, curious if you got this all sorted out?  Since changing those toggles on my JRiver install for my A6A I have had no disconnects. Every so often I have a song stop in the middle and go to the next song but I’m observing that usually is when I have a lot of other heavy PC load going on. Since my computer performs a lot of tasks during the day besides just JRiver.

Larry

[jctcom]

Hi.

I haven't had a chance to do extensive tests on this but I have had some disconnects when I have been working around the house and come back to the PC and it has changed sources.  They are certainly far fewer than before and it does not seem to completely blank the playlist anymore.

So much improvement but for me at least I don't think it is 100% fixed even with the suggested settings.

Carl.

[larryincmh]

Well on one hand I’m glad to hear there’s been a little bit of improvement but on the other hand hoping it further somehow sorts itself out.

One other thing I had been wanting to mention in the past was I noticed you use CLZ for your music management. I use that software myself but only for my vinyl and other analog sources (reel-to-reel). I really like the software it’s been pretty easy and intuitive for me to use. I still like to use the desktop client although I think have a subscription to the cloud back up because I can sync between my phone and my desktop. But I know I don’t subscribe exclusively to CLZ Cloud.

Take care.

[jctcom]

Actually you don't need the Cloud Backup to sync between Desktop & Phone.

Just the free account.  I have never had the cloud backup and have always sync'd between Desktop & iPhone.

I believe you only need to Cloud account if you want to edit online.  In fact without it you can still view your collection online and send links to others.

I also use MyMovies which is a great program with very accurate database.  I got into it years ago when you got a descent amount of points for updating movie profiles.  In fact I did so many updates that I got it for free for life.
It is a great way to get high definition and accurate covers as well.

Here is a link to my collection there:  https://discover.mymovies.dk/jctcom

That is a much more comprehensive list of my movies as it includes Movies I have only digitally.  I use CLZ mostly only for physical media.  Although I have added in some digital stuff since they added the ability to put them in a separate area.

Carl