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[Movieman]

I just finished looking at a bunch of stuff with the (final) test build. Unfortunately, I still see the same issues.

The latest set of libplacebo dlls (-290) are installed in the JRiver31plugins directory.

The red push remains.....  The main issue I see is that as the Target Peak Nits is decreased, the relationship between the colors are not being maintained.  This is shown as the dark patches in red start disappearing sooner than the patches in the other colors.  I'm not really sure what this actually signifies, all I see is that red is the most severely affected of the three primary colors as the TPN decreases..

I am attaching 6 files showing the results from using a value of 2000, 1000, 500, 250, 100, and 50 nits.  Realistically, only the range 0f 150 nit's or lower would be usable on a projector and very bad things are happening to red, getting progressively worse as the TPM is lowered.  Really, only 1000 or above show a reasonable balance between colors at higher luminance levels. 

For this test I am using HDR to SDR mapping, with the projector set to Rec.709.  I have also tried HDR to HDR with the projector set to BT.2020 and the results are an even more pronounced red push.

Using patterns from S&M V3 also show the same issue.

The capures were take taken with windows print screen to PNG files which were converted to jpgs for reasons of size.  The jpg conversion had no effect on the images presented here.  File names should be self explanatory.

[Hendrik]

The red push remains.....  The main issue I see is that as the Target Peak Nits is decreased, the relationship between the colors are not being maintained.  This is shown as the dark patches in red start disappearing sooner than the patches in the other colors.  I'm not really sure what this actually signifies, all I see is that red is the most severely affected of the three primary colors as the TPN decreases..

I am looking at your screenshots, and I'm not really sure how you are arriving at that conclusion of red disappearing sooner.

If I look at the 50 nits screenshot, then red and blue seem to be pretty equal in progression towards higher source brightness, and both still very clearly defined against the background up until the maximum. If anything, green as the third primary is the one that loses definition faster, as well as the three secondaries.

To be clear, just wanting to make sure we're looking at the same things and not some other factors

[jmone]

I've been avoiding posting any test patterns given the comments from Hendrik and Haasn that they can look weird when doing perceptual tonemapping (but will have a look) with v290.  In the ones above green is the primary that seems to be out of balance wit the other primaries (but this will impact hues of all colours).

Movieman, do you have a real work clip with the "red push" from v290 you can post so we can see.

[FenceMan]

I've been avoiding posting any test patterns given the comments from Hendrik and Haasn that they can look weird when doing perceptual tonemapping (but will have a look) with v290.  In the ones above green is the primary that seems to be out of balance wit the other primaries (but this will impact hues of all colours).

Movieman, do you have a real work clip with the "red push" from v290 you can post so we can see.

I am completely lost on this red push thing, to me JRiver with the latest posted patch completely eliminates it vs the current MPV build -

https://cdn.knightlab.com/libs/juxtapose/latest/embed/index.html?uid=410672fa-19e7-11ee-b5bd-6595d9b17862

[jmone]

OK - here is the HSV Sweep & Scopes for HDR to SDR 203nit FWIW (given I don't know how perceptual tone mapping should look on these patterns!).  The sweep itself looks the best it ever has for Magenta-->Red-->Yellow-->Green-->Cyan.  If I was to point at something, it would be that of the primaries, Blue is off axis.  It looks to have similar relative strength (both peak and the reduced gamut) but is heading toward Cyan rather than blue.

Edit - Updated the screen shot as the Gamut was not 709 (now is).

[jmone]

I am completely lost on this red push thing, to me JRiver with the latest posted patch completely eliminates it vs the current MPV build -

https://cdn.knightlab.com/libs/juxtapose/latest/embed/index.html?uid=410672fa-19e7-11ee-b5bd-6595d9b17862

That is what I pretty much see.  I'll need to recheck on v290 but for skin tone I don't see a red push and if anything, it may be a touch cool (but not worth fiddling with).

[Movieman]

I've been avoiding posting any test patterns given the comments from Hendrik and Haasn that they can look weird when doing perceptual tonemapping (but will have a look) with v290.  In the ones above green is the primary that seems to be out of balance wit the other primaries (but this will impact hues of all colours).

Movieman, do you have a real work clip with the "red push" from v290 you can post so we can see.

  Here is the ffmpeg capture.  I've got a lot more stuff that I am about to post.

[Movieman]

Here are a series of screen caps taken at differing TPN's

[jmone]

Here is the S&M 9 Box Skin Tone Clip.  Original is HDR1000, tonemapped to SDR203.  Checked the Skin Tones in the Original as well.  All looks fine.

[Movieman]

Here is the S&M 9 Box Skin Tone Clip.  Original is HDR1000, tonemapped to SDR203.  Checked the Skin Tones in the Original as well.  All looks fine.

What is your TPN set to?

[Movieman]

Here are the first three DaVinci results for the Mama Mia clip

[Movieman]

The second three

[jmone]

What is your TPN set to?

TPN?

[Movieman]

TPN?

Target Peak Nits. 

[jmone]

Here is my clip of the MM shot @ SDR 203 (with scopes).  Note that the Skin tones in the original are pushed heaps red as we;;.  As usual the JRVR is more saturated overall compared to the resolve Tone Mapped version.

[jmone]

As posted - all testing has been to SDR 203nits

[jmone]

FWIW These are all the relevant JRVR settings I've been test with prior to then tweaking for my HDR and SDR screens.

For this testing all the screen shots (bar the MadMax one) is set to what I think are the defaults of:
- Target Peak Nits : 203
- Enable Contrast Recovery when tone mapping @ 0.4
- Tone Mapping Alog : Auto-select
- Screen Gamut : Auto
- Gamma Processing : Disabled
- Calibration Method : Disabled

Are these the settings you are after?  I've also not tried to find the "best" settings at this stage, just looking for stuff that looks "wrong".  So far nothing as popped up to complain about!

[Movieman]

As posted - all testing has been to SDR 203nits

Which doesn't work for projectors.....

Everything I have posted so far is demonstrating what happens when you try to use a projector.

One more screen shot, look at the hard clipping. It's worst on the red but it's there on the green and blue as well.  If you look at all the Davinci shots I posted, that red clipping is there at everyTPN.

[Movieman]

Once more, looking at it with a different approach:  Scopes to follow:
 

[Movieman]

First set, check out the vectorscope

[Movieman]

the rest......


That's it I'm done 

[jmone]

FWIW - here is the SDR 80Nits for me.

[jmone]

So on this 80nit version to me I see on the scope with the picker tool:
- Histogram:  Only red clipping is in the darkest part of the Shot (The brunette's darkest hair) and you really can't see the impact of this
- Waveform:  Nothing is clipping at the top end, but you can see a bit of black crush (same hair).  There are no "weird" lines
- Vectorscope:  Mine look pretty different to yours.  You may want to try my "default" settings (posted above) but with 80nits to see how that looks?

[Movieman]

So on this 80nit version to me I see on the scope with the picker tool:
- Histogram:  Only red clipping is in the darkest part of the Shot (The brunette's darkest hair) and you really can't see the impact of this
- Waveform:  Nothing is clipping at the top end, but you can see a bit of black crush (same hair).  There are no "weird" lines
- Vectorscope:  Mine look pretty different to yours.  You may want to try my "default" settings (posted above) but with 80nits to see how that looks?

I was very close to your settings It does look different.  Contrast recovery was .5. The blacks are slightly clipped and the gain is higher on my scopes.  Hard to tell with different monitors, PJ's etc.   Anyhow, I think we've had enough fun for the day.

[jmone]

I was very close to your settings It does look different.  Contrast recovery was .5. The blacks are slightly clipped and the gain is higher on my scopes.  Hard to tell with different monitors, PJ's etc.   Anyhow, I think we've had enough fun for the day.

Yup fair enough!  Visual fatigue gets me running in circles! 

Also, while using scopes helps expose issues, the real measure is how pleasing movies look in real life and we all have different equipment, screens, room conditions, lighting etc etc in addition to the renderer and it's settings.  I'm personally not trying to get JRVR to look like madVR (or vice versa).  I'm after a pleasing image in MC that will work with my JVC x7500, OLEDs, and HDR1000 LCDs on HTPC's that range from the diminutive NUC to a 4090.  So far JRVR really hits the mark for me in testing, but now I need to spend time on each of my HTPC setups in "real life".

[Movieman]

I had an "aha" moment while eating dinner and I decided to try to replicate the success I have had with MPV on my RS3100 with JRiver.

So, if you have a newer JVC try this:

Set your JVC Content Type to "SDR"
Set your JVC Color Profile to BT.2020 (Normal)
Set your JVC Gamma to 2.4

Set your JRiver options and calibration settings per the attached screen shots.

Put on your favorite movie.  Let me know what you think.  Feel free to experiment......

(If the saturation still seems a little high, adjust the "Digital Vibrance" on the NVidia desk top settings to taste.)

[Movieman]

I had an "aha" moment while eating dinner and I decided to try to replicate the success I have had with MPV on my RS3100 with JRiver.

So, if you have a newer JVC try this:

Set your JVC Content Type to "SDR"
Set your JVC Color Profile to BT.2020 (Normal)
Set your JVC Gamma to 2.4

Set your JRiver options and calibration settings per the attached screen shots.

Put on your favorite movie.  Let me know what you think.  Feel free to experiment...... 

(If the saturation still seems a little high, adjust the "Digital Vibrance" on the NVidia desk top settings to taste.)

After doing a little bit of sampling, I think I prefer setting the JRiver gamma to 2.4.....

@jmones' DCI-P3 is another valid choice. Set both JRiver and the PJ to DCI.

[jmone]

Just had a play with the build on:

HTPC1: NUC12Pro to a Sony OLED.  The NUC does not have the grunt to Tone Map without dropping frames.  So this one stays on basic HDR Passthrough.

MainPC: 4090 to 1000HDR LCDs.  I'm HDR to HDR Tonemapping at 1,000nits and Reduce Gamut to DCI-P3-D65 (in BT.2020).  The P3 in 2020 seems to be doing it's job.  I've attached a link to the HDR Screenshots (both straight 2020 and also P3 in 2020) including the original Flower clip.  With straight 2020, I'm clipping the Reds, and with P3 in 2020 I'm not.  https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkiTPpgNxBQVg4hpOKZ9OsxRVRzZbw?e=oYve1s  The good thing about this mode is on most clips, you don't see a difference as most will be P3 mastered anyway.  Only a few of the test clips have colours outside of P3.  I'll be leaving this one on.

TheaterHTPC: 3060 to a JVC x7500: TBA (will have a look tonight).

[jmone]

@movieman.  Good to hear.  There are so many places that the image settings can be tweaked, JRVR, nvidia, JVC!  It's about finding what combo works best   I'll play with the JVC tonight, but I'm pretty happy with the settings above for my flat screens (well I wish my NUC could do HDR tonemapping).  FWIW, on the JVC x7500 I have to do HDR to SDR tonemapping else I get the "Magenta Bug" with HDR signals that JVC never fixed on this series. 

[jmone]

Spent a couple of hours with the JVC x7500 and JRVR.  Good news is the nvidia 3060 is powerful enough to run any combination of settings on material up to and including UHD 59.94 without dropping frames.

The first thing I did was to find what combination of JRVR and JVC processing works well together and correctly displays the HDR Clipping Test Pattern (after which I dialed in the Target Peak Nits).  If you get the combination wrong between JRVR and the JVC, you can end up with situation where a print screen of the HDR Clipping Test Pattern will show all the detail of say the Red flashing boxs but the image displayed will show most of them are clipped out (like I think Movieman had with his earlier post).  This is because the signal being sent from JRVR is not what the JVC is set for, hence showing a weird result.

To cut a long story short (and after watching the test clips and movies I'm familiar with) it turns out (on my setup) the following combination of settings looks great!

JRVR
- HDR to SDR Tonemapping
- Target Peak Nits = 110
- Screen Gamut = DCI-P3-D65 in 2020

JVC x7500
- Picture Mode = Cinema
- Colour Profile = Cinema 2
- Color Temp = 6500K
- Gamma = Normal
- Lamp Mode = High

Anyway, done for tonight! 

[Movieman]

@movieman.  Good to hear.  There are so many places that the image settings can be tweaked, JRVR, nvidia, JVC!  It's about finding what combo works best   I'll play with the JVC tonight, but I'm pretty happy with the settings above for my flat screens (well I wish my NUC could do HDR tonemapping).  FWIW, on the JVC x7500 I have to do HDR to SDR tonemapping else I get the "Magenta Bug" with HDR signals that JVC never fixed on this series.

This is not quite the same.  Not sending HDR to the PJ.  Sending SDR with a BT2020 color space.  Win 10 PC is set to SDR 10 bit yc limited range.  PJ sees SDR 10 bit.

[jmone]

One for Hendrik - It would be great if we could get directly to the JRVR Config Window (as we can with madVR settings) as currently you end up with two windows open (the Options Window and then from that the JRVR Window). This make it hard on single screen setups to see the impact of changes you are making (plus you lose playback control).  Thanks Nathan

[jmone]

This is not quite the same.  Not sending HDR to the PJ.  Sending SDR with a BT2020 color space.  Win 10 PC is set to SDR 10 bit yc limited range.  PJ sees SDR 10 bit.

Ahh that is pretty much what I'm doing on the JVC. 

[Movieman]

Ahh that is pretty much what I'm doing on the JVC.

OK, that's what works best for me.  Regarding your earlier comment on the clipping pattern, the print screen exactly matched what I was seeing on the PJ. So, no mismatch on settings between the PC & the PJ.

[FenceMan]

What are the current recommended settings -

Target Peak Nits - should we define the real number here or adjust to taste?  Is 203 the de-facto "auto" for libplacebo?

Tone Mapping Algorithm - should this be auto or spline

Contrast Recovery / Spline Contrast - set to taste?

Gamma Processing - disabled is recommended, is that the de-facto "auto" for libplacebo?

Calibration - disabled vs system wide if we do not have an ICC / 3dlut?

Appreciate the efforts to put us on the bleeding edge of libplacebo development.

[Wull]

Been using JRVR tone mapping for the first time. Using an lg-oled display to test it on. Once set up, I put on 'Ted lasso - S3 E5' The picture mainly looked great, but every now and then it looked a little dark. Generally when the scene was indoors. A time stamp, roughly 12mins 18seconds' (Rebecca is sat behind her desk) was very obvious. Using JRVR tone mapping the picture is dark. Use either my displays tone map or madVR and the picture is fine. Is this normal being in its infancy stage?

[mattkhan]

- Target Peak Nits = 250 (yup 250 - gives full coverage over the HDR Clipping Test Pattern and the higher nits means less tonemapping compromises)

that's just going to be (and is) really really dark, I can't see how that can possibly be a good compromise given it basically totally sacrifices luminance

[JimH]

Been using JRVR tone mapping for the first time. Using an lg-oled display to test it on. Once set up, I put on 'Ted lasso - S3 E5' The picture mainly looked great, but every now and then it looked a little dark. Generally when the scene was indoors. A time stamp, roughly 12mins 18seconds' (Rebecca is sat behind her desk) was very obvious. Using JRVR tone mapping the picture is dark. Use either my displays tone map or madVR and the picture is fine. Is this normal being in its infancy stage?

Make sure you have the latest build.

And read the thread, from about here:  https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,136378.msg944660.html#msg944660

[Hendrik]

Split the NUC12 performance discussion here:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,136463.0.html

[jmone]

that's just going to be (and is) really really dark, I can't see how that can possibly be a good compromise given it basically totally sacrifices luminance

That's the (odd) thing with these setting.  It's just not how it looks in real life with the latest JRVR.

I have a Seymour 120" diag screen, should be around 4m2 (gain is between 1.0 and 0.8 according to their spec).  At best the JVC pumps out 1900lm or about 554nits per sqm.  So in the most generous/optimistic max it could hit is a bit under 140nits across the surface (and in reality, will no doubt be a lot less).  I used to run MC lower than this with a custom professional calibration that was done (now a few years back). 

So in testing, I could find no combination of JRVR that look balanced on the HDR Clipping Test bars / HSV Sweep / Test Clips with my existing Custom JVC Profile (red in particular was clipped early on).  So I started cycling through the built in JVC profiles and low and behold the Cinema looked pretty balanced but was clipping highlights till I raised the JRVR nits.  Bit of back and forth while looking at not only the test patterns, the test clips (eg Mard Max, Horses in the snow, Samsung Red Rock etc etc) as well as my own content = the settings I posted. 

The JVC and JRVR setting I posted is where I landed having the colours balanced while not clipping whites or crushing black.  I can only conclude that what I'm seeing on screen is the combined processing of both JRVR and the JVC.  I guess the next step would be to set JRVR to (say) 100nits and cycle through all the profiles again and see if there is some other combination that looks better, but I did not find it last night.  I'm out tonight so probably will not get a chance for a bit.

[mattkhan]

Realistically you won't get anywhere near 140 but whatever the value, on the one hand it's a totally valid choice to prioritise highlights, on the other it's something like 25% (a guesstimate based on a couple of scenes so could be totally wrong) of the average output gone to make room for them. Absolute brightness is not perceived brightness but that's still a decent chunk of output gone.

[mattkhan]

Just to note that I think I am simply describing the dynamic target feature which, I think, libplacebo lacks hence making room for highlights in 1 scene means make everything in all scenes in all films dimmer (unless you setup a more complex profile / automation system to manipulate the target when playback starts)

[jmone]

For dark moody scenes, I was using the early scenes in Matrix.  Most of the settings I was trying meant I could basically see nothing, but was fine with the settings I posted.  I'll have a look again.... and also need to look at non HDR material (that I did not do).  I'm now wondering if I'm tonemapping down to 250nits with JRVR, and the JVC is then simply tonemapping again to suit the profile / HW specs that it has.

[Hendrik]

You can also try experimenting with the spline contrast option. It would allow you to shift the balance between brightness and highlights a bit more.

I'm now wondering if I'm tonemapping down to 250nits with JRVR, and the JVC is then simply tonemapping again to suit the profile / HW specs that it has.

It would not be able to do this if you output SDR to it. SDR has no metadata or any absolute brightness meaning, so it can't make any deductions from it.

[haasn]

Just to note that I think I am simply describing the dynamic target feature which, I think, libplacebo lacks hence making room for highlights in 1 scene means make everything in all scenes in all films dimmer (unless you setup a more complex profile / automation system to manipulate the target when playback starts)

libplacebo does have this feature, it's just hidden from the user: https://code.videolan.org/videolan/libplacebo/-/blob/master/src/tone_mapping.c#L214

This code adjusts the target knee based on the source brightness, target brightness, and source scene average, which ends up determining the gain on the overall image. (A higher knee point = less headroom for highlights)

[haasn]

libplacebo does have this feature, it's just hidden from the user: https://code.videolan.org/videolan/libplacebo/-/blob/master/src/tone_mapping.c#L214

This code adjusts the target knee based on the source brightness, target brightness, and source scene average, which ends up determining the gain on the overall image. (A higher knee point = less headroom for highlights)

It's worth pointing out that this code was thrown together in half a day, so there's definitely room for improvement. Probably the first step would be to somehow expose these controls.

Maybe on a rainy day I'll add a bunch of user-facing configurable variables to the spline tone-mapper (ditto perceptual gamut-mapper) so we can start playing with the numbers and seeing what happens.

[mattkhan]

libplacebo does have this feature, it's just hidden from the user: https://code.videolan.org/videolan/libplacebo/-/blob/master/src/tone_mapping.c#L214

This code adjusts the target knee based on the source brightness, target brightness, and source scene average, which ends up determining the gain on the overall image. (A higher knee point = less headroom for highlights)

Ok great, is there any way to see that info? Either in the debug osd or by dumping it to a file?

[jmone]

You can also try experimenting with the spline contrast option. It would allow you to shift the balance between brightness and highlights a bit more.

It would not be able to do this if you output SDR to it. SDR has no metadata or any absolute brightness meaning, so it can't make any deductions from it.

I'll add it to the list to check.  Something must be up (most likely me!). 

[tixi]

Hello ,

I share my little work/tests last night - 31.0.29 .

JRVR Tonemapping HDR-SDR on my Sony XW5000 Projector ( full calibrated D65 - Gamma 2.2 - 55 nits mesured ) Laser at 60%- Radiance Screen 110' 0.6 Gain.
So Target Peak Nits : 60 Nits.
Contrast Recovery Strength : 0.9
Tone Mapping Algo : BT2390 ( is that correct ? )
Screen Gamut Auto
Scaling Upscaling Jinc - Chroma Bilateral Chroma Scaling
Scale In Sigmoidal Light
Super Res FSRCNNX 16
Downscaling Lanczos
Sharpening 75
Dithering Blue Noise
Use HDR Dynamic Peak Detection ON
Convert HLG ON
Tricubic OFF ( my NUC11PHKi7C is not enough powerful)

Result is absolutely great ! But a little too Red compared with MADVR .
With MadVR, NUC is at a full power , fans at 100 % , crap ..
With JRiver, quiet , quiet , so quiet, so great !

I have test HDR to HDR Tonemapping , too dark for my projector. Need to use laser at 80%/90% and so it become a bit noisy ..

Thank you very much for your work !

[mattkhan]

a few observations, testing on a recently calibrated (i.e. measures pretty accurate) JVC N7 in DCI-P3 mode

* I think there is a bug in TPN or values below 50 aren't supported

if you set it to progressively lower values then the image (I think as expected) gets brighter and/or more saturated until you get to 50, if you then go to 49 it gets much darker and doesn't change as you go lower

* the spline contrast ratio control is
a) v fiddly to use (doesn't respond to keyboard, v large steps)
b) the steps are probably too coarse (at 0.1), it makes v little difference at low values but at higher values each step is a really large change (so I think the control as is is probably not so useful)
c) high values mixed with relatively low TPN look absolutely crazy so don't go there

* going below about 75 on TPN looks really strange, like the vibrance dial has been turned upto 11

* IMV perceived brightness takes a really large hit by setting TPN to 250 on such a display (re @jmone's earlier testing), way too dark

* at almost any TPN, jrvr is obviously more "intense" (saturated) than madvr (alt+tab'ing between the two on the same scene), it's only at low TPN (<75?) that it looks really obviously and blatantly wrong.

Overall the picture just has too much of a shop display image quality to me at times, i.e. when shops put TVs in burn your face off mode to try to impress passers by. Generally this comes across as just a bit cartoon like and/or CGI in some scenes (a certain uncanny valley quality to it if you get what I mean). It's not in every scene but often enough to be noticeably a bit "off".

one or more of the following would make testing *much* easier btw, 1 is obviously more work than 2/3 but remote control (e.g. let MC on one machine control settings on another) would be really great

1) an MCWS call like LoadDSPPreset (to allow for remote updates to the config), even if just to set specific values (like TPN) for test purposes....
2) one click (or keyboard shortcut) access to JRVR settings
3) automatically select the active profile in the JRVR settings