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[sjhilton]

Hi,

I have the following setup:

 - JRiver installed as Media Server hosted within a Docker container
 - two clients - both raspberry pi (one pi3b and the other pi4)

The server and clients are all using latest versions of MC 33.

I thought all of the connections between the clients and server would be using Media Network rather than DLNA, but it appears that when I browse on the server to play a file on one of the clients it is using DLNA (either converting to WAV or if original format is selected playing in FLAC).

Ideally, I would want playback from my local library on both of my clients to be exclusively handled by Media Network (also with an ability to use MC as a DLNA renderer for other streamed content eg Tidal via Bubbleupnp or similar).

I've tried disabling various settings, recreating DLNA servers etc, but to no effect. When I turn off the DLNA options in Media Network I've noticed that while I can connect to the server from each of the clients, the zones from the server and clients do not show up at all across the network. Is this normal? Is DLNA required for this functionality?

Thanks in advance for any assistance that can be provided.

Edit: I should clarify that this behaviour is also observed when playing to a 'there' zone, which is a zone made available by the server to the client from another client (eg where a zone is listed on the server from client A and client B selects that 'there' zone for playback).

[markf2748]

I've noticed that while I can connect to the server from each of the clients, the zones from the server and clients do not show up at all across the network. Is this normal? Is DLNA required for this functionality?

If I understand you correctly, I suspect it is "normal", AFAICT.  My network has only PCs and DLNA renderers (the latter consist of old Chromecast audio dongles made visible to MC via BubbleUPnP Server).  A "pure" client PC (i.e. a PC which runs an MC instance which has deselected Options > Media Network > Use Media Network to share this library and enable DLNA) does not show the DLNA renderers which are listed on the MC Server.  Apparently access to the server is limited to loading the server's library on the client and playing from it on the client.

I agree it would be ideal if a "pure" client could direct the server to play to any of the server's network renderers, all with only a single MC server on the network.  However I think that goes beyond MC's current notion of a "pure" client.  To reach those other devices from a client, currently you must change the "pure" client into a new network server, which can then load another server's library and play it to any network renderer.  While it works, I suspect the underlying network traffic might be doubled when the playback file does not reside on the new server (?).

[JimH]

You can load a library from a server and play to any renderer now.

[markf2748]

You can load a library from a server and play to any renderer now.

Yes, but today it took me a few hours to figure out how to actually do this for a PC MC renderer.

Here is what I think is necessary to "push" music to a computer's MC renderer over the network:

1) The MC renderer must be a MC server, not a "pure" client as I defined it above i.e. the renderer must have full networking enabled (which includes its own MC DLNA server and renderer).

2) Manually add at least one zone (Playing Now > Add Zone) to this target MC server/renderer in addition to the default "Player".  Give the new zone an easily recognized name when it is created.  The zone can be configured under Options > Audio > Zone to Configure > ...

3) The new zone appears under Playing Now on all servers.  Select this zone on a server and play to it, using either the server's local main library or a library downloaded from another server (Playing Now > Play from ...).

I find that in the "push" case all involved MC instances must be servers.  Standalone DLNA renderers appear under a server's Playing Now.

A "pure" MC client can load (i.e. "pull") a library from a server using Playing Now > Play from ..., but only plays to one of its local zones since it does not have full networking enabled.
10/16/2024 Edit:  The "pure" client can also play to the loaded library's Dynamic Zones which appear prefixed with "There: ".  See clarification in my Reply #5 below https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,139845.msg969760.html#msg969760.

All of this largely agrees with observations made in @sjhilton's OP - I've just restated it a little differently after independent verification in MC33.

I am guessing that libraries get loaded using MCWS or Media Center Core commands (MCC).  When playing to an MC renderer over the network, I presume that MC uses its own DLNA Media Server and DLNA Media Renderer, judging from activity levels in Services & Plug-ins > Media Network > Servers.  I asked a few years ago for JRiver to display more message detail in their Media Network monitor for troubleshooting, but it has not happened.  The details can be observed in real time using Wireshark if so inclined. 

Note:  At one time I think Step 2) was supposed to happen automatically, resulting in "there" zones on clients and servers.  I don't see automatic "there" zones happening now, whereas 2) creates reliable visible zones for me.  These manually added zones from other networked PCs also appear listed under Playing Now > RMB menu > Delete Dynamic Zones, so I guess they are effectively the current version of the mysterious "Dynamic Zones".  They can also be targeted using a remote controller, such as Android phone apps MO 4Media, JRemote2, BubbleUPnP app, Gizmo, etc.

10/14/2024 Some additions for clarity.

MC 33.0.30 | Win11 Pro 64-bit | Win 10 Pro 64-bit | Win 10 Home 64-bit

[sjhilton]

Yes, but today it took me a few hours to figure out how to actually do this for a PC MC renderer.

Here is what I think is necessary to "push" music to a computer's MC renderer over the network:

1) The MC renderer must be a MC server, not a "pure" client as I defined it above i.e. the renderer must have full networking enabled (which includes its own MC DLNA server and renderer).

2) Manually add at least one zone (Playing Now > Add Zone) to this target MC server/renderer in addition to the default "Player".  Give the new zone an easily recognized name when it is created.  The zone can be configured under Options > Audio > Zone to Configure > ...

3) The new zone appears under Playing Now on all servers.  Select this zone on a server and play to it, using either the server's local main library or a library downloaded from another server (Playing Now > Play from ...).

I find that in the "push" case all involved MC instances must be servers.  A "pure" MC client can also load (i.e. "pull") a library from a server using Playing Now > Play from ..., but only plays to one of its local zones since it does not have full networking enabled.  Standalone DLNA renderers only appear under a server's Playing Now.

All of this largely agrees with observations made in @sjhilton's OP - I've just restated it a little differently after independent verification in MC33.

I am guessing that libraries get loaded using MCWS or Media Center Core commands (MCC).  When playing to an MC renderer over the network, I presume that MC uses its own DLNA Media Server and DLNA Media Renderer, judging from activity levels in Services & Plug-ins > Media Network > Servers.  I've asked a few times for JRiver to display more message detail in their Media Network monitor for troubleshooting, but it has not happened.  The details can be observed in real time using Wireshark if so inclined. 

Note:  At one time I think Step 2) was supposed to happen automatically, resulting in "there" zones on clients and servers.  I don't see automatic "there" zones happening now, whereas 2) creates reliable visible zones for me.  These manually added zones from other networked PCs also appear listed under Playing Now > RMB menu > Delete Dynamic Zones, so I guess they are effectively the current version of the mysterious "Dynamic Zones".  They can also be targeted using a remote controller, such as Android phone apps MO 4Media, JRemote2, BubbleUPnP app, Gizmo, etc.

10/14/2024 Some additions for clarity.

MC 33.0.30 | Win11 Pro 64-bit | Win 10 Pro 64-bit | Win 10 Home 64-bit

Thanks markf2748 - that is very helpful. I agree it would be good to have a little more documentation on the Media Network functionality, the expected data flows in various client and server scenarios (even if it is just to clarify when DLNA will be used and when traffic will be solely via Media Network).

[markf2748]

I am guessing that libraries get loaded using MCWS or Media Center Core commands (MCC).  When playing to an MC renderer over the network, I presume that MC uses its own DLNA Media Server and DLNA Media Renderer, judging from activity levels in Services & Plug-ins > Media Network > Servers.  I've asked a few times for JRiver to display more message detail in their Media Network monitor for troubleshooting, but it has not happened.  The details can be observed in real time using Wireshark if so inclined. 

Note:  At one time I think Step 2) was supposed to happen automatically, resulting in "there" zones on clients and servers.  I don't see automatic "there" zones happening now, whereas 2) creates reliable visible zones for me.  These manually added zones from other networked PCs also appear listed under Playing Now > RMB menu > Delete Dynamic Zones, so I guess they are effectively the current version of the mysterious "Dynamic Zones".  They can also be targeted using a remote controller, such as Android phone apps MO 4Media, JRemote2, BubbleUPnP app, Gizmo, etc.

Clarification:
When a "Pure" Client (per my Reply #1) loads an MC Server library, the server's Dynamic Zones appear under the client's Playing Now, prefixed by "There: ".  If one of those zones is selected, the client directs the server to play there under client control.  In this case, there is no DLNA communication between the client and server, while the server may use DLNA between itself and "There: xx" to do the playback.

Unfortunately in this scenario a standalone DLNA renderer (visible on the server) does not show up under the "Pure" Client's Playing Now.  I'm unable to turn it into a server Dynamic Zone, so the standalone DLNA renderer is inaccessible to the client.
Caveat:  I tested with my old Chromecast audio dongles which depend on BubbleUPnP Server to slot them into MC as DLNA renderers.  I would like to know if a true standalone DLNA renderer shows up on a "Pure" client which has loaded a server library - anyone?

It's probably better to call my "Pure" Client a "Simple Client", i.e. an MC instance without DLNA enabled.  I demarcate here because when two servers (i.e. DLNA enabled instances) communicate with each other it is common to speak of one as being a client.

I agree it would be good to have a little more documentation on the Media Network functionality, the expected data flows in various client and server scenarios (even if it is just to clarify when DLNA will be used and when traffic will be solely via Media Network). 

+1

10/17/2024 Edit:  added question to Caveat.