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[JimH]

From Yahoo:

"Investigators have raided 120 sites across the globe to break up online piracy networks that distribute copyrighted music, movies and software, the U.S. Justice Department (news - web sites) said on Thursday."

Full article:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=578&e=6&u=/nm/20040422/tc_nm/tech_piracy_dc

[Alex B]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=578&e=6&u=/nm/20040422/tc_nm/tech_piracy_dc

The shortcut was short.  

[Mastiff]

Anybody heard about the Hydra? Chop one head off...   As long as there are computers there will be crackers (hacker is not the correct word in this case).

[sub-24]

Oh no

50% of my music has just stopped working

Imagine that.

Listening to: 'Since You're Gone' from 'Shake It Up' by 'Cars' on Media Center 10

[Alex B]

That news story is already updated:

Ashcroft declined to say where the raids had taken place, but noted warez groups often used schools as distribution hubs.

I think that it can be difficult to find those how are operating warez servers. Usually the owner of the server doesn't know anything about what is going on under the hood.

[Magicland]

I see they mention the ridiculous 2001 DoD bust. If this one is half as effective as that one, they probably "caught" a girl scout troop and a 93 year old lady. Oh, and USC probably had its library server shut down... Of course, they've got to find some reason to justify wasting all those tax dollars.

[edbro]

Ashcroft declined to say where the raids had taken place, but noted warez groups often used schools as distribution hubs.

I think that it can be difficult to find those how are operating warez servers. Usually the owner of the server doesn't know anything about what is going on under the hood.

Schools raided by FBI
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0421dvraid-ON.html

[drb]

good news. I am a non-computer pro guy. I just know basic operations in PC. That's it. I guess warez is some duplicate copy. Right?
What are those guys gaining by distributing it?
If so, why not the authors of the software prevent others doing so?

Of note,
this is my take on anti-virus softwares. These guys might bring in some 'virus' and then provide solutions later on, so that they can be in business.

drb

[Magicland]

Is it just me, or is there something wrong when our government can't find deadly nuclear fuel rods which were removed from a Vermont reactor in 1979 (not to mention similar ones lost by the same company from a Connecticut reactor in 2002), but will spend billions to bust 12 year old girls for sharing mp3's?

[cascius]

Well, the "hackers" they'll catch that way will probably be kids for the most part.

Let me put it this way:
- with my cheap ass linksys 802.11 card I get 3-4 wireless networks in my neighborhood. Of these, only 2 are protected. That's just with a card that supposely can only receive from a 100 yards top.
- wireless antenas can be made for dirt cheap and can receive from 3 or more miles... Imagine how many networks a hacker can get his hands on then? Also, since his IP would be the one of a poor guy several blocks away, I hardly see how the FBI could track him down.
- On linux, it's pretty easy to use a software that cracks wireless password protection systems. From what I read it takes a semi-experienced hacker 30 minutes to do so...
- there's a software that along with a small GPS device lets you do the following: drive around town with your laptop and create a GPS map of all the wireless networks according to the GPS location. Then you reuse this same software to automatically switch from one network to the other while driving... Therefore this provides untrackable IPs for someone that, let's say, would like to do attack MS website...

-> bottom line: with all the technology that's around, a hacker can do whatever he wants pretty easily in my opinion. The ones they're busting are most likely just a bunch of kids who think they're cool for sharing their music, videos and programs with their friends and such.

PS: I've never tried to crack a network nor do I have such an antena. I just did some research on this and was sadly amazed by the results.

[JimH]

I'm surprised that the reaction is anti Justice.

Those servers are used to steal software.  Some of them are stealing from JRiver and from the people who make MC.

[cascius]

Those servers are used to steal software.  Some of them are stealing from JRiver and from the people who make MC.

Agreed, that's why I bought a J River licence   t's not cool to steal from developpers like you guys who bust their ass for a software that's well worth it.

Hope this doesn't affect you sales too badly,

-Cascius

[Richard Berg]

I'm not going to debate the authors of a piece of software I like on their own website, but it should be noted that tossing around invective-loaded words like "steal" when referring to copyright infringement doesn't bolster their argument.

[Omni]

Let's diagram (loosely) that sentence, shall we?

I'm not going to debate the authors of a piece of software I like on their own website,

but it should be noted that tossing around invective-loaded words like "steal" when referring to copyright infringement doesn't bolster their argument.

Aren't you contradicting yourself a tad there?  

So, priracy does not legally equate to theft but instead it's a mere copyright infringement?  Interesting.  *digesting words and restating*  So theft of intellectual property is really only a copyright infringement you say?  Again, interesting.  Learn something new everyday.  

Besides, we don't know if Jim meant stealing in the legal sense.  Abstractly, certainly you couldn't argue that downloading wares isn't stealing, could you?

[GHammer]

MC is protected software, in fact I am limited to a certain number of installs in a given time period. My opinion of software 'protection' has not changed since the days of copy protected floppys. It doesn't stop the pirates and is not convienent for legitimate customers.

Another point that I believe in is that software companies do not lose sales to piracy. If, for example, someone with a crack for MC had it taken away. Would they dig out the credit card and buy it? I don't think so. I think that person would move along to whatever free player they could find.

How about the global market? How do you sell MC for example, to the Chinese? They have no credit cards. Forget the fact that most don't have the income to spend 240 RMB on a media player.

Is it fair that compaines like MS are now using 'special' pricing in places like China? If the software is worth $299.00 in the US, then I think it is worth $299.00 everywhere. And if it is only worth $50.00 in China for example, it is only worth $50.00 in the US.

All in all this is the same issue that has been fought over and again in the PC market. And the answer always comes out the same. Make a good product, support it well, people will buy it. Developers can stop the casual thief, but will not generate more sales. And certainly will not defeat the dedicated pirates.

As for the direct issue of this topic, I am firmly against the use of the FBI and other government agencies to intimidate the public. Which is the entire point of this action, the RIAA lawsuits, etc.

Shoot I see the draconian 'copyright protection' law the US is considering. How many years for sharing files? You don't get that kind of time for child molesting. Ask Michael Jackson...

Go catch some terrorists, find some drug dealers, ticket the evil jaywalkers. Use public power and tax money on things that benefit the general public.

[paulr]

So what do you call copying and using software you did not pay for?

Is photocopying a book for personal use stealing?  Copying a CD from a friend?

[JimH]

Is photocopying a book for personal use stealing?  Copying a CD from a friend?

Yes.

[paulr]

Doh!  Sorry Jim, that was in response to someone 3 posts above me. who seemed to think it was ok to use pirated software... That was mostly sarcasm on my part.  

[Omni]

Is it fair that compaines like MS are now using 'special' pricing in places like China? If the software is worth $299.00 in the US, then I think it is worth $299.00 everywhere. And if it is only worth $50.00 in China for example, it is only worth $50.00 in the US.

I'm not saying I endorse the practice, but strictly speaking, that is just capitalism in action.  "What the market can bear," and that sort of thing.

Using your argument, then it is also unfair that gas prices aren't universally the same across the country.  (Okay, okay, let's not go into semantics over things like California clean air laws and such... you know what I mean.  )

[Magicland]

I'm surprised that the reaction is anti Justice.

Those servers are used to steal software.  Some of them are stealing from JRiver and from the people who make MC.

I seriously doubt that. First, if they weren't going to purchase your software in the first place, you haven't lost anything. It's ridiculous how agencies like the SPA count the number of times a program is downloaded and equate that to lost sales. It simply isn't realistic. Are some sales lost? Certainly. Are some sales generated? Certainly. What is an accurate ratio of sales lost compared to sales generated? Nobody knows, because nobody has ever done an accurate study on the effect of software and music piracy.

Note, I'm not talking about guys on the corner selling copies of music, software and movies, that's not who's being targeted by these sweeps, yet that is where a real tangible loss is occuring, as it is directly competing with the sales of legitimate versions. Most of the studies of music piracy (again referring to peer-to-peer "sharing" and not pirated copies of CD's for sale in competition with legitimate ones) NOT commisioned by the RIAA have shown that free distribution of music actually boosts music sales. The same results occur when major recording artists freely distribute music online. It also boost sales of tickets for live shows and related merchandise.

As for the software side of things, as I mentioned, accurate studies haven't been done in this area, mainly because the only people with a financial interest (and therefore those commisioning the studies) are those selling and promoting the software. Having been peripherally involved in the "scene" at one time (this is back in the BBS days), I can personally relate that of many hundreds of software titles downloaded, most of them were never even installed on a computer. Were there a few programs I used regularly that I didn't pay for? Sure. Some people lost out on a few sales because of me. Do I know people who went out and purchased software based on my recommending it to them? Again, sure. I've no idea what the ratios are in either direction. I do know that had I not been able to download Photoshop 3 for free, I certainly wouldn't have paid for it, as it was priced well out of my range. I would have used the legitimate copy of Ulead's PhotoExpression I had instead (which sold for 1/4 of the price). Since I did have access to an "illegal" copy of photoshop, I used that, but Adobe certainly didn't lose a sale. The people who really made out were those selling blank disks (and now, probably blank CD's and DVD's).

Concerning Media Center, I'm sure that there are "cracks" available for those interested in using it illegally (Please note, I've a fully paid for and registered version:)). I'm sure that as new versions of MC are released, many of those cracks fail to work, rendering MC inoperable. Is someone seriously going to use a product which doesn't work until a new crack is released on a regular basis? It's possible, but I doubt it, especially when there are free alternatives available (not as good, of course, but then you get what you pay for, occasionally). If they really like MC, they'll buy a copy, otherwise, they'll shortly move on to something else. If you have figures which dispute this (and you may), I'd love to see them.

I wouldn't consider the responses "anti-justice". Considering that many of your users are of a general "high tech" level, and tend to do things "outside the lines" of mainstream conforming society, it's possible that some of them feel that justice would be better served if it took aim at real damaging targets, rather than those targets which are easiest to hit.

[JimH]

...if they weren't going to purchase your software in the first place, you haven't lost anything.

Absurd argument.  If someone wasn't going to buy your bicycle anyway, have you lost anything if they steal it?

The important point is whether one respects the property rights of another.  If not, then anything goes.  But that's anarchy.

[Magicland]

...if they weren't going to purchase your software in the first place, you haven't lost anything.

Absurd argument.  If someone wasn't going to buy your bicycle anyway, have you lost anything if they steal it?

The important point is whether one respects the property rights of another.  If not, then anything goes.  But that's anarchy.

You can't equate physical property with intellectual property. If somebody steals your bicycle, you don't have a bicycle. If somebody who wasn't about to purchase your software steals your software, you still have all the profits you were going to make from your software. Is it wrong? Sure. Have you actually suffered a loss? No.

[Omni]

The important point is whether one respects the property rights of another.  If not, then anything goes.  But that's anarchy.

I have never heard it put so succinctly yet so clearly before.  Bravo!

Magicland, come on, really... a study?  We have to do a study to determine if stealing someone's product is right or wrong?  

[cascius]

You can't equate physical property with intellectual property. If somebody steals your bicycle, you don't have a bicycle. If somebody who wasn't about to purchase your software steals your software, you still have all the profits you were going to make from your software. Is it wrong? Sure. Have you actually suffered a loss? No.

So what you're saying is that if someone was to steal the code of MC and making their own same exact software with a different name, that wouldn't represent a lost either? J River would be losing a chunk of the market, and therefore profits.

It's exactly the same with using/ distributing cracked version of a software. I mean seriously, who cannot afford to pay $40 for a software that does this much? Probably most of the people who use cracked versions are high school/ university students. Before the mp3 craze, 99$ of those students would spend quite a lot of money on such things as music. i wouldn't be surprised if they spent close to $40/ a month. Therefore, if no cracked version were available I'm sure that a greater % of people would buy those software. Even if it's just 1/100, it would stil affect J River's revenues.

So it's not called a "loss" but rather a "lossed potential gain" if you prefer puting it that way.

[Seviien]

...if they weren't going to purchase your software in the first place, you haven't lost anything.

Absurd argument.  If someone wasn't going to buy your bicycle anyway, have you lost anything if they steal it?

The important point is whether one respects the property rights of another.  If not, then anything goes.  But that's anarchy.

I actually just defended an honors thesis on intellectual property.  And while I agree that stealing software is generally unfair and unethical, I have to say that Jim's argument  is technically incorrect.  He's comparing apples and oranges.  If the bicycle could be replicated by its owner for zero or near zero marginal cost -like software or other intellectual property can - then Jim would have a point.
There's an important distinction in that things such as software require a high fixed development cost, but once that is paid they the developer can essentially distrubte as many copies as he wants with little or no cost.
Furthermore, intellectual property does not exist in a tangible sense, and because of that it is not a rival good (a good where use by one person precludes use by another).    If someone steals a bike, that means the bike *cannot* be used or sold by its origonal owner.  If someone steals a piece of software, the developer is neither impeeded from selling that same software to someone else nor does he experience any inventory "shrinkage."
Some sales are clearly lost to software piracy, but an examination of the problem points to it being limited in most cases.  The profile of an "at risk sale" is one to an individual who values the time necessary to pirate the software and the ethical stigma attached to "stealing" less than the purchase price of the software in question.  Following that line of thinking, factors that would put upward pressure on the number of copies lost to piracy include the software price and its popularity, since illegal versions of popular software are easier to find.
Taking that argument one step further, those with the most time to spend pirating software are teenagers without jobs.  Perhaps not too coincentally, the disposable income of that group is fairly small.  They could very well "steal" software that that would either not want to buy or could not afford.  (Though here cascius has a very good point that distinguishes music sales from software: the people who used napster, etc. were the people actually buying music in the first place, where people stealing software probably were not buying it in the first place.)

[pipsqueak]

1) lost potential sales = a loss. although not the same physically, these ARE the same economically. if someone steals a $40 product you still are $40 worse off. [cf economics 101]

2) people who illegally download music are often those who would not pay for music anyway (true). i have also heard the argument that increased downloads lead to higher sales, but thats irrelevant - what would the sales have been if there were no illegal downloads, even higher?

moreover the point is not would the people who download the tracks pay for them otherwise, its the precident that they sets..

pip

[IlPadrino]

I can't believe I'm jumping into the fray...  but for what it's worth:

I think many of the prior posts are failing to recognize that two separate things are bieng discussed:  ethics and financial loss.

It's almost a no-brainer that using cracked software is unethical on some level.  We could debate all day where that level lies...  but surely it's below mass murder and above jaywalking.

I haven't read (in this thread or elsewhere) of a reliable study that shows the unethical behavior of using cracked software equates to a financial loss for the software developer/vendor.  That's why I feel it's safe to say that using cracked software isn't stealing in the same sense of taking real property (you know...  like filling up the car with gas and driving off without paying).  I equate stealing with the act of taking something that in turn denies the owner of a benefit.  Usually, the denied benefit is the ability to possess an object or to sell the object itself.

So, JimH's analogy isn't particularly relavent to using cracked software...

If someone wasn't going to buy your bicycle anyway, have you lost anything if they steal it?

This is certainly stealing because you've lost the benefit of having the bicycle.  If you're a private owner, you don't enjoy the benefit of riding the bicycle.  If you're a vendor, you lose the ability to sell the bicycle.

So...  if you use cracked MC, what benefit does JRiver *lose* that they would have if you didn't use cracked software *and* wouldn't buy it anyway?  If someone has an answer to that question, I'd love to read it.

Of course, stealing IP and then selling it (either as-is or modified) is more rightly considered theft because there's a reasonable assumption that sales of the product with stolen IP likely take away from sales of the original IP.

IlPadrino

[IlPadrino]

1) lost potential sales = a loss. although not the same physically, these ARE the same economically. if someone steals a $40 product you still are $40 worse off. [cf economics 101]

But do the users of cracked software represent a potential sale?

[pipsqueak]

1) lost potential sales = a loss. although not the same physically, these ARE the same economically. if someone steals a $40 product you still are $40 worse off. [cf economics 101]

But do the users of cracked software represent a potential sale?

often not, hence my 2nd point...

[GHammer]

Is it fair that compaines like MS are now using 'special' pricing in places like China? If the software is worth $299.00 in the US, then I think it is worth $299.00 everywhere. And if it is only worth $50.00 in China for example, it is only worth $50.00 in the US.

I'm not saying I endorse the practice, but strictly speaking, that is just capitalism in action.  "What the market can bear," and that sort of thing.

Using your argument, then it is also unfair that gas prices aren't universally the same across the country.  (Okay, okay, let's not go into semantics over things like California clean air laws and such... you know what I mean.  )

If a barrel of oil is $40 on the market, a refinery is a refinery, then yes, I'd say for gasoline prices to be different is not kosher. Of course the taxes are unequal, but why is the cost of a gallon of gas itself different?

Sorry, but I don't buy the 'deep pockets' school of marketing.

[IlPadrino]

1) lost potential sales = a loss. although not the same physically, these ARE the same economically. if someone steals a $40 product you still are $40 worse off. [cf economics 101]

But do the users of cracked software represent a potential sale?

often not, hence my 2nd point...

Well, music and software are not the same.  You have few "free" alternatives to music-on-demand (yeah, some of us still listen to the radio, but that's different).  But for almost every class of software application, there are free products available that do similar (though not the same0 functions.  Surely we can think of many such products for the media management/playback/recording/transcoding/did-I-forget-something-else-that-MC-does? market.  I think GHammer was precisely right on this point.

Granted, some people will be so impressed with MC that after failing to find a crack, they'll pony up the cash.  But perhaps we can agree that the percentage is pretty small, and move on to an ethical discussion instead of a "stealing" (of profit) discussion.

[Rob L]

so on that basis... if someone steals your car on a regular basis but happens to know when you normally use it and put it back whenever you need it, that's fine because they're not actually depriving you of it?

Some people really do have ridiculous justifications for this.

Why should anyone ever bother buying a piece of software then?

[cascius]

I do believe that the users of illegaly obtained softwares represent some type of potential sale. Of course not a 100% of those users would actually buy the software.

Let me put it this way: to get through college you'd better have Microsoft office; that's a no brainer. Now, I believe a huge amount of students use illegal copies of that same software; no brainer either. Considering the fact that most universities cost way over 20k, i believe that a good % of those same students would pay the 2-300$ to purchase office if they couldn't get a pirated version of it.

I hope that clarifies my opinion on the subject. Of course some students would go and type their projects at the computer lab, etc... But there MUST be a % of those users that would actually purchase those softwares. Even if it was .0001%, it would still represent a loss.

Therefore in my opinion, software piracy represents a loss.

If you disagree, that means that you truely believe that parents paying 60k for a university wouldn't pay the ridiculous few hundred $ for a "must have" tool their kids really need...

Hope this helps,

-Cascius

PS: please stay away from flaming anyone in this thread. That's not what these forums are about. Thanks

[kaiynne]

On the music side of things here is an example from my experience.  I am 23 by the way.  During the height of napster, i downloaded a lot of music, probably 50% of it was live stuff or unrealeased stuff of bands I allready owned most of the cds from.  However, some of it I got by searching the libraries of people who had similiar taste to me and then picking an artist and downloading their music.  The best example I have is Beulah, they are a great indie rock band from CA, anway i downloaded some of their music and really liked it.  It is a few years later and i still have the mp3s but I now own 5 of their records.  So if we are going to go into hypothetical scenarios, were it not for napster I would more than likely not own those cds.  This is what people say when they talk about lost potential customers versus gained potential customers.  The current music distribution model we are stuck with is not the only concievable model, crying THEFT at the top of your lungs is not going to make it so.

[darkAngelChild]

I do know that had I not been able to download Photoshop 3 for free, I certainly wouldn't have paid for it, as it was priced well out of my range. I would have used the legitimate copy of Ulead's PhotoExpression I had instead (which sold for 1/4 of the price). Since I did have access to an "illegal" copy of photoshop, I used that, but Adobe certainly didn't lose a sale.

I too back in the day when I was in University had illegal copies of Photoshop which is where I learnt how to use the program. It was not a part of my course needs and just something I did as a hobby. The same goes with Macromedia Dreamweaver and Flash. Again not a part of my course or something I needed, just a hobby and so I would NEVER have considered buying these as I had next to no free cash. These copies are the only way I learnt how to use the programs and gained the experience I had in them. Without that experience I would never have been able to get my first job.
I now rely on these three pieces of software for day to day work and have fully legal copies that I insisted I needed as part of my work toolkit at the company I am now with.
My copies that I had illegally before did not cost Adobe anything, would not have equated to a sale as they were not necessary for me at the time, they gained me the experience I needed to then enter the work market place and I now rely on them to work with and so now do equate to sales for these companies and a profit.
If I had not been able to get hold of those copies I would not have used these programs to begin with, would have had a much harder time entering the work market as companies insist on experience with them. I then would not be in a position to now insist the companies own copies of these for me to use to work with which results in sales of these programs.

I know of several other friends who were at University with me who are in the exact same position as well.

All the research in the world wont change the fact that those copies we used back then for free when we could not afford and did not need the software, equates to sales now for the companies.
I have also read several different research articles over the years too backing up that this is often the case.

[scott_r]

I was holding off commenting in this thread until I saw this:

If I had not been able to get hold of those copies I would not have used these programs to begin with, would have had a much harder time entering the work market as companies insist on experience with them. I then would not be in a position to now insist the companies own copies of these for me to use to work with which results in sales of these programs.

The company obviously needed a job done that required some sort of graphics progam. Someone else who had used a legal copy of the products while learning, for example, someone doing a computer graphics design course, could have gotten the job and told the company to get said products. Therefor, the fact that you pirated the software while learning and therefor made you experienced enough to do the job did not contribute to a sale for the software vendor - they would have had to purchase the product anyway, whether you got the job or not.

[Alex B]

In my opinion MC is not in the category of professionally used productive software. Besides the intended usage of the software everything else is different: pricing, distribution channel, license policy, etc.

I can imagine that if there are pirated MC copies to catch, it can have an effect on the JRiver sales. The business idea of the MC is build on the shareware model with voluntary payments.

In this case the shareware business model should work well. The product itself is so superior, that trying it should automatically lead to a buy-decision if there is a need for that kind of product.

The purchase price is so low that even students and other not so wealthy people can usually afford it. Investment to MC is insignificant when compared to other needed investments when making a PC jukebox.

If it is easy to catch a pirated copy or a crack it may lead many otherwise decent people being too lazy to pay that relatively small amount of money. They don't think they are doing a big crime because of the cheap price. They don't think twice about the consequences.

I suppose that we all wish much more MC sales to JRiver, so that they can continue their product development, pricing, support and license policies, which are probably the best in the industry.

[TimB]

Some people don't think its theft until it happens to them.

-=Tim (a reformed Kazaa'er)=-

[IlPadrino]

so on that basis... if someone steals your car on a regular basis but happens to know when you normally use it and put it back whenever you need it, that's fine because they're not actually depriving you of it?

Another faulty analogy...  Using your car creates a maintenance need - the burden of which falls on the owner, not the "borrower".  There's also the risk issue, which should be pretty obvious.

Some people really do have ridiculous justifications for this.

This thread didn't start as a "justification for this".  It started as a (perhaps pedantic) explanation that using cracked software is not "theft" in the traditional sense.  It sounds like you're focused on the ethical aspect - but that's another matter...  and one much harder generalize.  Most ethics are a deeply personal issue.

[Mastiff]

Please dont flame me or ban me or send timed explosives to me with FedEx (feel free to send it with DHL - it will explode before it ever reaches me! Once it took them more than a week to get an overnight package from London to me! And three days is the average - hopless!!!) , but my first experience with JRiver was a old cracked version of MJB 7 that I found on an FTP or maybe a website (this was the spring of 2002, I belive). By then I had been through Siren and Music Match, but didn't really like any of them. I liked MJB. So I checked JRiver's homepage and found that version 8 was out. I first started to look for a crack but then decided that the program was so good I had to buy it. I can say almost certainly that I wouldn't have found MJB/MC without that FTP or whatever - after MM and Siren I had given totally up on advanced systems and gone back to WinAmp.

So you may say that I'm a reformed pirate.   I hope I have made up for my transgression with my proclamation in all and any fora that MC crushes all competitors!

And my brother told me a while back that when he was a student the norwegian importer of one of the big name CAD programs (I won't say which, I promised not to tell anybody this) had an "underground" FTP where anybody could download the software. This was not sanctioned by the parent company, but the importer swore that at leas 30 % of his sales was because students had learnt his company's program and bought it when they got jobs where they needed a legal copy. This is very similar to what DarkAngelChild said.

[JustinChase]

Snatch, now there's a great movie.

[GHammer]

my first experience with JRiver was a old cracked version of MJB 7 that I found on an FTP or maybe a website

Ha! I did the oldfashioned format reinstall every 29 days until I could afford the licence. So, was a sale lost? Nope, just postponed

[GHammer]

Perhaps we need a new beta!

One of the reasons I like this place is because there have been no flame wars, things stayed pretty much on target, lots of help with nearly any problems.

This is real close to a holy war (MS vs Linux, etc) subject.

You ain't gonna convince me that pirates steal noticable sales and I ain't gonna convince you that they don't.

And it won't lead to any good outcome for this community.

Signed,
A Veteran of holy wars dating back to OS/2 vs Win95

[Mastiff]

Nah, this isn't even close to a war! If you call it that, you should have seen the old alt.pets.dogs way back in the time... I remember one about the amish puppy mills. That was a war! Even led to a few lawsuits. All in the name of a bit of fun...

Justin, I like "The Passion of the Christ". A historically very, very good movie (even for a blatant atheist like me!), but not one tenth as violent as people say. They have never seen 80's italian splatter, cannibal and zombie movies if they call that extreme!

[Nolonemo]

The business idea of the MC is build on the shareware model with voluntary payments.

MC actually is trialware.

[zevele10]

I'm surprised that the reaction is anti Justice.


Well , in a country where a famous player of a famous sport go out free.
Where a famous singer is not that much in trouble for facts we know.
In a country where someone in the death row of a texan prison just need to get $70.000 to give to a lawyer who says that he will go out free in the next trial and that his problem is to have no money to had a private lawyer at the time ,instead of the free one he got.

So , in such a country i really would like to know what is justice , what is the meaning of the word justice.


Beside it , yes i do think that using cracks is stealing.

I will say it looks to people as a minor steal , a new Robin Hood age.

Again , what do softwares productors can expect when just giving a key as the way to unlock the program?

Look like everyone had try to apply old  rules to a new word ,way of living.
As we see with music . They try to apply old rules to a new product.
Would be better to have another view on it.

If the ones creating the first automobile had spend years thinking about where to put , what to do with the horse first , we may still use only bikes.

It is what irsometing is doing concerning music.

So ,to me , yes using cracks is stealing.

Concerning music , as far as i know , you cannot steal something that does not exist.

So , how someone can say i steal music in a format i can use as i like , when there is nowhere to  steal from?
I may try to steal protected music , but tell me where i can steal music in a format free of protection.
Nowhere i can do it. Not right ,i know- There is Emusic.
But out of Emusic , nothing.

[modelmaker]

To DarkAngelChild:

 Those companies have not gained any sales because you company purchased what they would have had to purchase anyway. You should personally purchase those programs to replace the illigitamate ones you no doubt still have at home now that you have a job and can afford it. Then those companies will gain the sales that the are owed by you.

 Getting the company you work for to buy the software does not relieve you of the responsibillity of paying for the products you stole.

Just my opinion.

[darkAngelChild]

I wasn't trying to get into a debate over the specifics of my right or wrong doings, i was simply trying to use it as a general example.

A large number of the people at my University got a lot of their experience with different pieces of software this way and have now gone on to get good jobs with companies thanks to their experience. They are now paying taxes, working hard and contributing to society as best they can as honest law obiding people.
Them having access to that gave them the ability to get where they are now, without it some might have, others definitely wouldn't have made it there.
And as for the software being purchased, with some bigger companies sure they will have the software and want someone who can use that software. With alot of smaller companies however they find the person who can do the work for them and he is the one who says what software, tools etc he needs. That persons experience with the bigger name programs is what makes them say 'I need photoshop'.

I've seen it from personal experience, from experience of peers and I've also read independant surveys backing this up.

this arguement however I fear is like the chicken and egg - everyone has their opinion that is often quite deeply felt and they are not too likely to change it. A right or wrong is hard to achieve that everyone agrees on.

[Alex B]

MC actually is trialware.

OK, trialware then if you like that better. My point was that it is meaningless to discuss about pirated expensive software e.g. Photoshop when we are in the MC forum. What should matter here is if the software piracy has any effect on us as MC users.

Make peace, not war.

[kaiynne]

To: modelmaker

It probably not that likely that he would still have the copies of the software he was using in college, simply due to upgrades, if he does have that software on his home computer, it is most likely either a newer cracked version or the software that his company bought.  Depending on the licensing requirements of the vendor this may or may not fall under fair use.  If he works for his company from home i would say that it most assuredly should fall under fair use.