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[HTPC4ME]

I tried moneky audio only did about 30 discs and i  already have 13 gigabytes..what is a very good format to use to save on space but yet keep quality?

thanks any info would be greatly appreiated or away w\ in media center to make files smaller.thanks

[Alex B]

You can use many compressed formats for good or even transparent quality. What formats and how is a long story and I am not going to write it here. I will only describe what I have decided to do.

I have nearly 20000 music files in my collection; some are old, some recently ripped. The old ones are in high quality VBR MP3 format. Recently I started to rip to Monkey's Audio format. But now I think it uses too much hard drive space in everyday use (including backups). Files are also too big for using with Media Server (I have a 4 Mbit connection to my office and seeking large APE files is not working very well).

Now I have decided to do next: I rip to Monkey's Audio, scan cover art images and tag the files. Then I convert the APE files to Ogg Vorbis format and leave only the OGG files in the library. I archive the APE files to CDR or DVDR disks for later use.

I use the newest v.1.1.0 Vorbis encoder. I have replaced the older encoder (oggenc.exe) in the MC plugins folder with it.

I have this setting in MC encoding options (Encoding Type & Quality, Encoder: Ogg Vorbis, Quality: Custom -> Advanced):

-q9 --advanced-encode-option impulse_noisetune=-15

The setting makes quite big variable bitrate files, averaging about 270-370 kbps (depending on the source material). For me the files are transparent. I really can't here any difference with the original CD. (I have an audiophile soundcard and I play my music through a high quality separate amp and speakers). Those files have also enough quality for transcoding to 192 kbps MP3 for car and portable use.

Vorbis encoder from www.rarewares.org.
Oggenc2.3 using libVorbis 1.1.0 with IMPULSE_TRIGGER_PROFILE Option 2004-09-24, ICL 7.1 compiles:

Pentium 3 / AMD (270Kb)   Pentium 4 only (260Kb)

Technical information about encoding formats and quality: http://hydrogenaudio.org/forums


Edit. Hydrogenaudio.org seems to be out of service just now:

Forum offline for maintenance. Please try back shortly.

[Alex B]

If that about 320 kbps is still too much you could try this:

Encoder: MPEG Plus encoder, Quality: Xtreme (averages about 200 kbps).

[bbrip]

To be honest, I dont care about harddisk space, because it is already becoming so cheap. What I care much more about is my time re-ripping lossy fromats at a later time into lossless!

Therefore I continue to use APE and I am very, very happy with this format. It is easy, fast and you do get quite acceptable compression WITHOUT ANY LOSS OF DATA!!

I know, we humans are not supposed to hear certain low and high frequences. However, just compare a lossy file (even at a high bitrate and using an excellent encoder (lame) and compare that to a lossless APE compressed file on a good hifi system. Try it out with demaning music (not just a soft piano peace or slow jazz) and you will be amazed about the difference !!

Therefore my advise: Dont move to lossy formats just because of the higher diskspace this takes up. You might regret doing so at some later stage!

BB

[Alex B]

bbrip, xtacbyme asked specifically this:

What is a very good format to use to save on space but yet keep quality?

Personally I have 400 GB on my main MC computer and it's almost full. I would need to have about 600 GB just for my music files if they were all in Monkey's Audio format. I like to have two backups of my files. That makes 3 x 600 GB for music files + 3 x 200 GB for other files, 2400 GB total. I am seriously considering about building a server with two 800 GB fault tolerant RAID systems and changing my LAN to a gigabit one. But that's mainly intended for video editing and archiving.

I wasn't satisfied with LAME at the best setting (--alt-preset extreme). After doing extensive listening tests with various encoders and considering other factors too I decided to use Vorbis for now. Another good candidate was Musepack at quality settings from 9.5 to 10. Both are better than MP3 ever. I archive Monkey's Audio files to CDR/DVDR disks with full tagging and cover art, so I don't have to re-rip if I need another format.

About hearing the low and high frequences, that is not where the difference lies. Vorbis and Musepack can both record the same frequency range CD Audio has. At that high levels of bitrates I use differences can be found mainly in ability to play sudden transients and in possible formation of artifacts.

[loraan]

I know, we humans are not supposed to hear certain low and high frequences. However, just compare a lossy file (even at a high bitrate and using an excellent encoder (lame) and compare that to a lossless APE compressed file on a good hifi system. Try it out with demaning music (not just a soft piano peace or slow jazz) and you will be amazed about the difference !!

This is a can-of-worms topic, but just as a data point, I've done a blind comparison between 160 Kbps WMA and uncompressed WAV, and I couldn't tell the difference. Chalk this up to my tin ear, if you like, because my sound system should be plenty good enough to show the faults in the compression.

I basically agree with you that disk space is so cheap that ripping to APE is a compelling choice. But even "cheap" disk space adds up when you need hundreds of gig, which many would, given the size of thier collections. I've been very tempted to move to APE for a long time, but it would easily fill my 60 gig hard drive, and the minimal-or-no gain in sound quality isn't enough, to me, to justify an extra $200 for another drive.

[GHammer]

Biggest factor for disk space to me is the fact that I no longer have SCSI drives. And with IDE you have a limit on how many drives you can run. Then there's the power supply to consider, etc.

Anyone running more than 4 SATA drives?

[JimH]

A GB of storage costs less than $1 now and you can use it to store about 3 CD's in APE format, so the cost of storing a CD in APE format is around 25 cents and dropping.

Why would you not spend 25 cents to rip a CD that cost more than $10?  If you could afford the CD's over time, it seems that you could afford the drive(s) over time.

[Doof]

Biggest factor for disk space to me is the fact that I no longer have SCSI drives. And with IDE you have a limit on how many drives you can run. Then there's the power supply to consider, etc.

Anyone running more than 4 SATA drives?

I'm not running SATA drives yet, but my motherboard is capable of supporting 8 IDE drives all on its own. The 2 Maxtor 200 GB drives I bought each came with an IDE card that would support 4 IDE drives, bringing the grand total number of drives I could put in my system to 16. Even if I only bought cheap 40 GB drives, I could still get about 640 GB of space. Sticking with the 200 GB drives could put me up to 3.2 TB of space.

Granted, that's IDE, but I know you can buy PCI SATA cards and do the same thing. You could even use USB or Firewire if you wanted to.

With the speed increases of IDE and SATA, the increased capacities of IDE and SATA, plus the ability to pretty much throw a ton of drives into a system, I haven't seen the need for SCSI in a long time. I'd probably only look at SCSI if I needed RAID 5 or something similiar.

[hit_ny]

what is a very good format to use to save on space but yet keep quality?

This really depends on the genres of music you listen to.

If its very instrumental like classic or has lots of strings, i think you might have to use a lossless format like APE.

If the music you listen to is electronic based then you get very well get away with mp3s or vorbis.

[Alex B]

Vorbis with right settings is transparent for me. The bitrate goes up to over 600 kbps when needed, but usually it averages to about 320 kbps. The reproduction of transient attacks has improved much lately.

Musepack is also transparent for me at quality settings from 9 to 10, but Vorbis has wider support and it is developed all the time. The developing of Musepack seems to be stopped for now.

Actually those quality settings are usually considered as overkill, but I like to have some margin for e.g. transcoding to lower bitrate MP3s.

MP3 & LAME is a good choice if a wide support for the format is needed. In my opinion MP3s made with LAME and "--alt-preset extreme" setting sound very good, but not always identical with the original CDs. And I am not speaking about big instantly audible differences. Finding out real audible differences is possible only by careful listening tests.