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[JimH]

If you're not an American and you and your friends have been thinking that Americans are beligerant half-wits ....  a new poll is out:

--------------- [begin excerpt]---------------
Most Americans now believe the war with Iraq was not worth fighting and more than half want to fire embattled Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, the chief architect of that conflict, according to a Washington Post-ABC News poll.

The survey found that 56 percent of the country now believes that the cost of the conflict in Iraq outweighs the benefits, while 42 percent disagreed. It marked the first time since the war began that a clear majority of Americans have judged the war to have been a mistake.
 
Barely a third of the country approves of the job that Rumsfeld is doing as defense secretary, and 52 percent said President Bush should sack Rumsfeld, a view shared by a big majority of Democrats and political independents.

Full article is here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14266-2004Dec20.html

[KingSparta]

WASHINGTON: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld will now personally sign letters of condolence to families of troops killed in action, after the Pentagon acknowledged signing machines had been used in the past.

Very Bad, Someone should slap him

I know that sounds not normal for me but i don't care what side your on politically, you don't do this.

to me it shows disrespect to the soldiers and families

I feel the end is near for mr. Rumsfeld

I wonder if Mr. Powell Wants The Job?

[Michel Lefebvre]

From a Canadian's point of view, I have to say that this all sounds like Rumsfeld is really a scapegoat here... Who authorized the invasion of Irak? Not Rumsfeld....

'nough said I guess...


From the not normally very political Michel....

[Charlemagne 8]

It should also be noted that a small but growing number of Republicans are "questioning his effectiveness".

The observation by Michel Lefebvre about the possibility of Rummy being a scapegoat is fair. On the other hand, it's my opinion that "W" is and has always been a figurehead for the more senior members of the "team".

That's just MY opinion ... no one told me to have it. Democrats don't work that way.

OK. Maybe that's not fair but I'm still stinging from the LAST time I weighed in with my political opinion.

CVIII

BTW - Where, exactly, is the "poll"?

[Michel Lefebvre]

It should also be noted that a small but growing number of Republicans are "questioning his effectiveness".

The observation by Michel Lefebvre about the possibility of Rummy being a scapegoat is fair. On the other hand, it's my opinion that "W" is and has always been a figurehead for the more senior members of the "team".

That's just MY opinion ... no one told me to have it. Democrats don't work that way.

OK. Maybe that's not fair but I'm still stinging from the LAST time I weighed in with my political opinion.

CVIII

BTW - Where, exactly, is the "poll"?

CVIII: You read my mind exactly!

Michel.

[Charlemagne 8]

CVIII: You read my mind exactly!

Amazing.
I assume you think in French? (This is based on posts elsewhere)
Not bad mind reading for somebody who's never been very far away from Tennessee.

    

CVIII

[Michel Lefebvre]

Amazing.
I assume you think in French? (This is based on posts elsewhere)
Not bad mind reading for somebody who's never been very far away from Tennessee.

    

CVIII

Actually, I am completely bilingual... I was raised in a family that spoke both French and English at home... So I "think" in French or English depending on my mood really... I don't really realize it...

Michel.

[Charlemagne 8]

Now that is really cool.

I suppose I'm the same way, really ... I can speak (and think) in either English or Southern. 

[Michel Lefebvre]

Now that is really cool.

I suppose I'm the same way, really ... I can speak (and think) in either English or Southern. 

I can appreciate...I have been in the South so many time to really know...

:-)

Michel.

[hit_ny]

There is an old saying that goes.... you break it, you own it.

I hope the Americans don't chicken out now. Finish the job. The grieving families of the lost 1300 will feel their loss was not in vain.

Its not like the rest of the world wanted it anyway.

I guess we get to see how steady "W" really is now.

[kaiynne]

The really sad thing is that while a majority now disaprove of the war, i would be willing to guess that if asked why they disaprove most would have some sort of pragmatic reason.  This is very similiar to Vietnam, except the discontent has been accelerated a few years.  Regarding Vietnam a majority were in favor or unsure for the first few years, but when the majority finally swung against the war it was not on moral grounds but simply a pragmatic view.  Too many dead Americans, too high a cost that sort of thing. 

Wake me up when a majority of Americans realise that the foreign policy of America is morally bankrupt and has been for a very long time.

[JimH]

Wake me up when a majority of Americans realise that the foreign policy of America is morally bankrupt and has been for a very long time.

I think you may be misguided if you think that the foreign policy of a country is formed by its citizens.  In the last U.S. election, for example, the two sides were divided by just 3%.  Very nearly half probably agreed with you that current American foreign policy was not satisfactory.

[KingSparta]

Wake me up when a majority of Americans realise that the foreign policy of America is morally bankrupt and has been for a very long time.

I do believe that most Americans agree that we should help other countries with their problems and human rights abuse, unlike many countries.  I personally sometimes feel we should take that money and do something productive with it  - spend it on our own country.

I agree most Americans now believe we lost too many soldiers (I also believe this).

It might not have been as bad if the French, German and Russia Governments were not supporting a Known dictator and terrorist, and then not wanting to go save the people of Iraq because they would be found out of all the underhanded dealings that went on when the so called United Nations was in charge.

Nothing is perfect when humans are involved we all have our own agendas.


Charted At 07 In 1990

Listening to: 'No More Lies' from 'The Best Of Michel'le' by 'Michel'le' on Media Center 11

[lee269]

Nothing is perfect when humans are involved we all have our own agendas.

Heres a story on a tangent that wil hopefully be interesting. A couple of weeks ago I was fortunate to be invited to the home of a couple of Iraqi doctors who work with my wife. They are Kurds who fled Iraq a number of years ago (against their will). My initial reaction was 'dont mention the war' (for the Fawlty Towers fans amongst us), but they were very open about discussing it. Meeting people from Iraq was a first for me. I am not offering this as representative of all Iraqi opinion - see what King said.

They were, perhaps understandably, very supportive of the involvement of the 'coalition of the willing'. Good riddance to Saddam and all that. But I couldnt help notice that their opinion of Sunnis was maybe somewhat extreme - 'they will kill you for nothing, they know no reason, they are scared of losing power, etc'. Now these people probably had good reason for their opinions - eg one of them was unable to return to his homeland for the funeral of his mother due to fear of persecution. I was struck though by the similarity to all the stuff we have heard in the UK about Northern Ireland and religious/cultural divides. Two well paid professionals Im sure are not exactly representative, but it certainly made me think about all the ordinary people who just want to get on with their life. It has taken years in NI to get to the stage where (according to my paper recently) people are sick of politics and just want politicians to get on with it. And not too many years ago these politicians were 'terrorists'.

It was a fascinating evening: the conversation was lively, and the Iraqi food was excellent - reminiscent of Turkish/Greek food to me. But why do surgeons have to talk about the gory details of operations over the dinner table?

[Charlemagne 8]

What was the question?

[Simple]

 

Banned twice.

Learned my lession about 'free speach' and don't write nothing at all about a theme like this. As a non American in this forum. Beware!

Listening to: 'Free Speech For The Dumb' from 'Garage Inc.' by 'Metallica' on Media Center 11

[JimH]

You can write whatever you want, as long as it is not insulting.

Example:

BAD
Americans suck.

GOOD
America's foreign policy is lacking/barbaric/in error/in transition

[Simple]

Sonds like 'The Good, The Bad & The Ugly' from 'Very Best Of Ennio Morricone' by 'Ennio Morricone' on Media Center 11.

[Sam]

I think Rumsfeld should have stepped down long ago.  They've made way too many mistakes in Iraq - Abu Ghraib, disbanding the Iraqi army, the Baathist purge, slow in restoring basic services, slow in building up Iraqi police and security forces, indifference to the looting... 

As for a "morally bankrupt" foreign policy,...  I think the US did the right thing - but did it very poorly.

If the guy down the street who has a history of beating his children and picking fights with neighbors appears to be a threat to your family, and if there is no police to stop him, the right thing to do is to use any excuse to go in and arrest him yourself - even if many of your neighbors say that you have no right to bother him or use force against him, even if some family members say that they just want to get along better with others.  It's the right thing to do, even if the town council is against it, even if it provokes anger among those who you thought were your friends.  It would be immoral to look the other way, to wait until after he hurts even more people, possibly your children.

The town council is morally bankrupt.  Because it can act only with a  consensus, it can rarely be effective in deterring crime or capturing criminals.  People do wrong, and people get hurt; and the town council looks the other way.  The townspeople are lucky that without a police force, there are a few strong citizens who are willing to do unpopular things in order to keep bad people in line.

[hit_ny]

After all is said  I believe the US will still be in Iraq 10 years from now.

The elections in January, will install a leader that the west likes (puppet). Even though he will be elected rather than installed, those against this leader will continue to agitate for a long time to come. If the US leaves,  this leader will be elliminated in short time and the country will plunge into a civil war. Until such time a new Saddam emerges. And this in an area that is close to the world's oil supply.

When the war began, most casualties were from friendly fire, now the story is different.

The same applies for Afghanistan by the way. Hamid Karzai only controls Kabul, the rest of the country is still owned by the previous warlords, they are called district ministers now.

[GHammer]

After all is said  I believe the US will still be in Iraq 10 years from now.

The elections in January, will install a leader that the west likes (puppet).

The same applies for Afghanistan by the way. Hamid Karzai only controls Kabul

For all the "US foreign policy is bad", etc. I have yet to see suggestions of what an enlightened policy should be.