Topic: How is the Ipod support coming? (Read 15906 times)

LarryJoe · « **on:** September 27, 2002, 02:37:28 am »

Hey guys, sorry if this post is redundant, but I love the new forums and wanted to try it out! I am the user formerly known as Joe Z.

Running into problems? Harder than you thought? Just curious. I am using Ephpod at the moment with my 20GB Winpod and have no major complaints. I will say this, you better get your tagging problems fixed because the Ipod is very finichy about tags!

I basically had to go through all my files and retag and clean them with Tag&Rename. I thought MJ was tagging these properly, but found otherwise. MJ seems to tag within itself and not really update idV* tags 50% of the time. I hope I can rely on MJ9 to be a sound tag editor.

Thanks,

LJ

SeanC · « **Reply #1 on:** September 27, 2002, 05:23:25 am »

Quote

I basically had to go through all my files and retag and clean them with Tag&Rename. I thought MJ was tagging these properly, but found otherwise. MJ seems to tag within itself and not really update idV* tags 50% of the time. I hope I can rely on MJ9 to be a sound tag editor.

Many people have found MJ to be an excellent tag editor. Your description of the tag problems seems like the option to update tags may not have been turned on.

MJ uses it's own database to store file info, and optionally (but by default, I think) updates the tag info inside files.

To see whether MJ is configured to update v1 and v2 tags, go Settings->plugin manager->input->mp3->configure. [This could probably stand to be easier to find...]

You might want to make sure that Settings->Options->General->"Update tags when file info changes" is turned on.

If it is, open properties on the files in question, change the pull-down to 'Update all files' and then click save.

SteveG · « **Reply #2 on:** September 27, 2002, 06:45:11 am »

LarryJoe,

iPod is moving along, it is not a trivial task, but it is progressing. It is too early to see all the potential pitfalls, but it looks like it should work.

Steve

LarryJoe · « **Reply #3 on:** September 27, 2002, 10:18:47 am »

Thanks Sean - It all appears to be set. In the config box it says "ID3 1.0/1.1". This is the only thing there that relates to tagging. Under setting/general all is fine too. Maybe I am crazy, but there have been many thread and documented problems with MJ tagging. I would love to be able to rely on it. An example, try to tag a file and then see if the tags show up in XP's my music explorer view with the field view enabled in XP of course. They just don't work for me. They still are blank. BUT, retagging with Tag&Rename does the trick.

SteveG - thanks for the update. Fingers crossed.

JimH · « **Reply #4 on:** September 27, 2002, 10:47:25 am »

Though MJ follows the ID3v2 tag standard, XP does not. It cannot read our tags so it ignores them. We've contacted Microsoft.

LarryJoe · « **Reply #5 on:** September 27, 2002, 12:51:28 pm »

Thanks Jim. I was looking at the MPC pluggin above, but the MP3 pluggin is also set correctly.

OK on XP, but what about other programs? I spent a lot of time tagging with MJ and never really looked at the tags with another program. With other programs, the tag says something much different than what it says in MJ.

For example, I had everyone of my 2000 mp3's tagged in MJ with an artist, but when I checked out my library with other programs, a lot were missing, or still said various artists. When I check the same file in MJ, it would register the artist I gave it with MJ. I guess tagging across programs is not standard. I don't know a lot about this. However, after I rebuilt and cleaned my tags, I then clear MJ and re-imported and all my new tags created with Tag&Rename (great app btw) came through.

Maybe I was doing something wrong, who knows, but I am sticking with Tag&Rename for tagging.

Kurt Young · « **Reply #6 on:** September 27, 2002, 02:50:57 pm »

True to form, I have to give a reply and some good quality bumpage to an iPod thread if I see it.

Also a good time to just give a shoutout to JoeZ -- Wattup, JOE!!

One shoutout to Steve! Howdy, Steve! Good to hear it's progressing... you know that I can't wait to get my hands on that plugin!

Quote

LarryJoe,

iPod is moving along, it is not a trivial task, but it is progressing. It is too early to see all the potential pitfalls, but it looks like it should work.

Steve

LarryJoe · « **Reply #7 on:** September 28, 2002, 03:51:55 am »

Hey Kurt! This 20GB Winpod totally rocks. Man, what a difference from the RIO 500. Thanks for the bump!

willrmc · « **Reply #8 on:** September 28, 2002, 09:18:15 am »

yeah i had the same problems as larry. i had to go and retag a bunch of stuff in mmjb and then it worked. and i sure am anxiously waiting this ipod plugin.

AdamP · « **Reply #9 on:** September 28, 2002, 12:24:10 pm »

Has anyone gotten MJ to work with Ephpod without using another app to do tagging? As long as I try to use ID3V2 Ephpod doesn't seem to recognize the tags on any file whose tags have been modified in MJ.

Reluctant to use the more limited capabilities in ID3V1. I think I read somewhere on other threads that MJ isn't tagging files properly?

-Adam

JimH · « **Reply #10 on:** September 28, 2002, 01:23:42 pm »

MJ tagging is "by the book". Other programs may be unable to read them. Windows XP, for example, is not reading ID3V2 correctly.

LarryJoe · « **Reply #11 on:** September 28, 2002, 03:34:23 pm »

Jim - just curious here, are programs like MMJB, Tag&Reame and Dr. Tag not "by the book"? They must be doing something that MJ isn't because when tagging with these programs, tags show up in XP as well as ever other software I use capable of reading tags. But tags created with MJ are not always read by other programs like Ehpod, Tag& Rename, etc.

Not trying to be flip here, but it seems odd.

JimH · « **Reply #12 on:** September 28, 2002, 03:45:56 pm »

Nikolay can provide details, but our theory is that XP has a limited knowledge of the ID3v2 "standard". The standard allows software developers to add additional information. XP reads some but not all correctly.

SteveG · « **Reply #13 on:** October 02, 2002, 01:42:01 pm »

FYI iPod users, progress on the plug-in is moving along. I hope to have a rough version for testing soon.

Hang in there.

Steve

Kurt Young · « **Reply #14 on:** October 02, 2002, 06:02:52 pm »

Quote

FYI iPod users, progress on the plug-in is moving along. I hope to have a rough version for testing soon.

Hang in there.

Steve

Dude, that kicks @ss! Glad to hear it! How can I get on the testing list?

rockstar · « **Reply #15 on:** October 02, 2002, 11:32:04 pm »

Awesome! I'm tired of using EphPod.

TimB · « **Reply #16 on:** October 03, 2002, 01:07:31 am »

Quote

Dude, that kicks @ss! Glad to hear it! How can I get on the testing list?

Likewiz.

-=Tim=-

Quisp · « **Reply #17 on:** October 03, 2002, 03:56:25 am »

One thing i'm hoping is that the plugin will support copying files from the iPod as well as to the iPod....

SteveG · « **Reply #18 on:** October 03, 2002, 06:39:14 am »

Kurt,

You are on line 1 of the testing list

Quisp,

Awesome cereal from the 70's. Thanks for making me feel old.

Seriously, we can take a look at moving files from iPod to your PC once everything else is running. I think it is more of a copyright decision than a technical one.

Off to fight the iPod again......

Quisp · « **Reply #19 on:** October 03, 2002, 09:19:48 am »

Quote

Quisp,
Awesome cereal from the 70's. Thanks for making me feel old.

No problem Steve

, if it makes you feel any better I think of it as awesome cereal from the 60's!

Quote

Seriously, we can take a look at moving files from iPod to your PC once everything else is running. I think it is more of a copyright decision than a technical one.

Yeah, I figured as much. Ephpod allows two way communication so I'll just continue to use that. I burn my CD's at work on my dual processor Mac and then transport them to my PC at home to manage in MJ. As for the copyright issue, that's what laws are for !

TimB · « **Reply #20 on:** October 03, 2002, 10:10:19 am »

Quote

Kurt,

Seriously, we can take a look at moving files from iPod to your PC once everything else is running. I think it is more of a copyright decision than a technical one.

As my iPod appears as another disk on my PC hopefully this won't be a problem as you wouldn't be adding any functionality that isn't already put there by Apple?

Good luck!

All us iPod'ers are thinking positive thoughts about you wrestling with MJ and an iPod!

-=Tim=-

Quisp · « **Reply #21 on:** October 03, 2002, 11:32:46 am »

At least with the Mac version of iPod, Apple did the PC

thing and made it "impossible" to copy files from your iPod. Of course there are at least 5 utilities available for the Mac that get around this limitation. Only legitimate users suffer. If I was using it as a pirating tool, it wouldn't matter to me in the slightest that I would have to use two pieces of software to save thousands of dollars.

I just wish there were 120 gig firewire drives available, or some sort of high capacity yet compact disc like medium to copy to, wait a minute...

SteveG · « **Reply #22 on:** October 03, 2002, 11:52:40 am »

Update on the iPod to PC transfer suggestion....

This will be no problem.

Quisp · « **Reply #23 on:** October 03, 2002, 01:15:18 pm »

YEEHAW!!!!!!

THANKS!!!!!

Kurt Young · « **Reply #24 on:** October 03, 2002, 01:53:06 pm »

Oy Steve, while we have your ear, I wanted to throw a couple lines of text your way on this subject...

First, I don't know if you're working much on the contacts and calendars function, but if you're not, it won't break my heart at all. All I want to do is use MJ to interface with my iPod as a portable music device. There's other programs out there (palm2ipod, outpod) that can handle calendars and contacts.

Also, I was wondering if you were working with the iPod's ability to keep track of play counts whilst on the go, and to relay that information back to the computer? I love the play counts in MJ (especially with all the sweet things you can do with them in MJ9), but most of the listening I do is on my iPod (commuting, at work, etc). It'd be slicker than snot to have the play counts that amass on my iPod during the day be fed into MJ when I plug in at night, updating my "top hits" playlists and whatnot.

Keep fighting that good fight, bro... I'm standing by with a smile on my face!

LarryJoe · « **Reply #25 on:** October 04, 2002, 01:34:19 am »

I would also love to be a tester, please put me on the list.

SteveG · « **Reply #26 on:** October 04, 2002, 04:38:21 am »

Kurt,

Thanks for the suggestion. The first order of business is to get the music files handled. Calendars and Contacts will be later if at all (it is a little incompatible with MJ's functionality). The play count idea is good, I will look at it once everything else becomes more stable.

Thanks.

LarryJoe,

When this gets working, I will post lots of messages here before I go to drink beer

TimB · « **Reply #27 on:** October 04, 2002, 08:38:13 am »

Quote

When this gets working, I will post lots of messages here before I go to drink beer

NO beer for you UNTIL its working!

-=Tim=-

Quisp · « **Reply #28 on:** October 05, 2002, 07:18:14 am »

Steve, first, I hope you'll put me on the beta list also. I've got a 5g Mac iPod (original) which I would be glad to donate to the cause.

I know you are busy working on this and have priorities, but I was wondering how, if at all, the "Sound Check" feature (as I understand it, basically replay gain) will work? Will this be supported? What "standard" does Apple use? Can replay gain settings set in MJ9 be used to control the Sound Check feature on the iPod?

Thanks!

tldysart1 · « **Reply #29 on:** October 05, 2002, 08:53:38 am »

Just picked up a 20GB iPod and would be more than happy to help with testing!!!

SteveG · « **Reply #30 on:** October 05, 2002, 10:23:05 am »

tdlysart1,

Thanks for the offer.

Quisp,

I am not sure yet. There is no standard for any of this, Apple has been totally uncooperative. Basically, I am making this all up as I go. Once I have a basic functionallity set going (i.e. file transfers, deletions, etc.) I will work to get as many extras in as possible. At that point user input such as yours will be of great use because you can guide me to solve the issues in a way that works best for you.

Steve

Kurt Young · « **Reply #31 on:** October 06, 2002, 05:28:24 pm »

Quote

NO beer for you UNTIL its working!

-=Tim=-

TIM! You should be ashamed! Denying beer! That's just terrible!

Okay, so this is just a shameless bump. I'll admit it. Go Steve! Go iPod! Go Chiefs!

Also, folks... I just popped over to the iPod forums at apple.com, and there's JimH, trying to get Apple's attention! Three beers (er... cheers) for Jim! I can dig wanting to go to the source... you'd be sure to get hight quality interface that way. But Apple got married to MusicMatch a while back, and I don't expect that they'll go cheating anytime soon. Did they ever get back to you Jim?

Oh and Steve, no worries on what may or may not be integrated in version 1, dude... just having the version 1 will be a blessing. As long as I can auto-synchronize my smartlists over to my iPod, I'll be happy. (Again, I don't think that anyone cares about contacts or calendars being involved in your plugin... we have outpod and palm2ipod for that stuff) That being said, playlist synchronizing and iPod-to-MJ playcount updates are my two strongest wishes.

Cheers, bro. Go Chiefs.

joefreshman · « **Reply #32 on:** October 06, 2002, 09:30:33 pm »

Oh, the irony... I emailed MediaJukebox back in March asking if they wanted my help in adding iPod support. No reply. Emailed again in April, and again in May.

I guess it's true: no one in corporate software development thinks freeware authors are reliable at all.

Oh well, their loss...

Kurt Young · « **Reply #33 on:** October 08, 2002, 08:29:34 am »

Ah, Joe, I wouldn't take it personally, dude. I mean, in March, there weren't hardly as many MJ users that used iPods as well. Our ranks have grown at a freakishly large rate since then. I bet that customer requests for an iPod plugin didn't start coming in in earnest until the WinniePods were released. Heck until a month ago, my emails to Steve probably represented about 70% of the iPod requests.

I think that since Apple's released FAT32 iPods, the task of making a plugin has become much more realistic, therefore meriting a higher spot on the priority ladder. And three more cheers ta Steve for taking the plunge and attacking it. (Yes, it's just another bump. Sue me.

)

Joe Freshman, btw, is the creator of Ephpod -- www.ephpod.com

wavell · « **Reply #34 on:** October 08, 2002, 04:15:38 pm »

After trying MMJB, and AEC/Lame with EphPod, I have found your Media Jukebox the best for ripping with EphPod for transfers to my iPod. Would dearly love to beta test your new iPod plugin when available. Please let me know if this is possible?

TimB · « **Reply #35 on:** October 08, 2002, 04:34:26 pm »

Quote

I guess it's true: no one in corporate software development thinks freeware authors are reliable at all.

Joe, I'm with Kurt on this. I didn't discover iPod until last month and MJ until I went to the iPodLounge a week or so later.

Like many folks right or wrong, I suspect though we knew about EphPod and the Mac iPods we weren't really comfortable with the idea of connecting to our Windows machines until Apple said OK. We then tried MMJB, gagged and went in search of better solutions.

IMHO EphPod is a VERY cool program and was the first program I downloaded after my MMJB experience.

-=Tim=-

Kurt Young · « **Reply #36 on:** October 10, 2002, 05:48:34 pm »

Listening to: 'The Waiting' from 'Hard Promises' by 'Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers' on Media Jukebox

"The waiting is the hardest part!"

ashawley · « **Reply #37 on:** October 10, 2002, 06:58:24 pm »

I'm with Kurt on the waiting part.

Don't know if adding a feature request is too late at the moment but I'll try anyway.

One of the features that's really useful in iTunes is that you can select which songs should be synched on your iPod. That way you can keep all your songs in your library but only mark certain songs for ipod storage. For those of us that have more songs than can fit on our ipods this solves a big problem. Many of the applications for Windows that are out there today don't allow you to mark songs for synching. They let you select folders, but not the individual songs. So, you have to end up either a) getting creative with your folders or b) leaving certain songs out of your jukebox music library.

Hope this makes sense, if you guys have seen iTunes you'll know what I mean.

The other important feature that hopefully you'll be able to have there is that if you change a song's id3 tags and then do a synch with your iPod the transfer program should know that that song's been updated and re-upload it.

I know that Ephpod and Xplay don't support this today (I think Joe's fixing that in the next release), and I'm pretty sure that MMJB got around it by always re-uploading all songs during a synch. Could be wrong on that part.

'Course you're probably just trying to get the darn thing to transfer one song at this point, so I guess I'll shut up and let you get back to work.

Either way, can't wait to see how it turns out, put me on the Alpha list if you could.

Adam (S).

Kurt Young · « **Reply #38 on:** October 10, 2002, 08:36:20 pm »

Ooh, good show, Ash! (Howdy, btw!)

It'd be boss to be able to synch with either folders, playlists, or specific albums/artists/songs in your library. Synching with playlists and smartlists would, in my opinion, be the most important, since that's how I personally do it (hehe)... I've got about a dozen smartlists that I export and synch with... updated daily it provides some nice music variety.

It's true that XPlay/Ephpod are limited in scope when it comes to re-transferring songs. I believe (though I could be wrong) that XPlay only scans for changes in the Artist, Album, or Title tags. If it finds differences there, it will re-synch the song.

One possibility would be to somehow use the actual file's modification date. That way, any change would be synched. However, I dunno if that's the best idea... I'm not sure what all is kept inside the file. Album art, playlist membership, playcounts, and stuff could trigger unwanted synch-updates. I guess that if I had my way (and my vodka is telling me that I do!), songs would re-synch to the iPod if there were changes in:

Standard iPod tags: Artist, Album, Title, Genre, or Composer
File size changes (say I've re-ripped the CD at a higher/lower bitrate)
Song duration (say I've cut the last two seconds of silence off that was accidentally encoded)

However, that could make synchs agonizingly long, as the plugin scans all those files for differences. Perhaps file modification date would be best?

Something to definately watch out for: Ephpod used to only copy/update one instance of a song. Say I have a song that exists on two different albums (like a greatest hits album and the original album) -- It would only copy the song up once, and it wouldn't populate the database with both instances. I've got 4 identical copies of the same mp3 (same filesize on all 4 files), tagged to 4 different albums. I'd expect to see 4 copies of that song in their respective albums on my iPod.

While I'm at it, here's to you, Steve:

Cheers!

LarryJoe · « **Reply #39 on:** October 11, 2002, 05:47:49 am »

Can't wait for the pluggin

SteveG · « **Reply #40 on:** October 11, 2002, 07:02:08 am »

LarryJoe,

I spoke with Joe a few days ago. His emails never got to me so that is why we were not in contact before and I did not connect "Joe Freshman" with Ephpod until Kurt's post a few days ago. Call off the dogs on the whole "not right" train off thought. Everything is fine between Joe and us. Just some previous miscommunication.

AdamP · « **Reply #41 on:** October 11, 2002, 07:09:30 am »

Great! Now that you guys are talking with each other is there a chance you can sort out why Ephpod doesn't recognize MJ's ID3V2 tags properly?

SteveG · « **Reply #42 on:** October 11, 2002, 08:15:42 am »

I can talk with Joe about this eventually. I am more focused on getting us to work first. Please feel free to remind me by email once we roll out our Plug-in.

Thanks,

steve @ jriver.com

LarryJoe · « **Reply #43 on:** October 11, 2002, 09:00:32 am »

Quote

LarryJoe,

I spoke with Joe a few days ago. His emails never got to me so that is why we were not in contact before and I did not connect "Joe Freshman" with Ephpod until Kurt's post a few days ago. Call off the dogs on the whole "not right" train off thought. Everything is fine between Joe and us. Just some previous miscommunication.

Done, but please note I did praise you for responsiveness and asked him to give you the benefit of the doubt. I wish you had posted that in this thread sooner. Glad to hear you formed a relationship. Ephpod is a savior. I am sure I will still use Ephpod in tandem with MJ. No offense intended Steve.

LJ

ashawley · « **Reply #44 on:** October 11, 2002, 10:20:10 pm »

Hey Kurt, I think your on to something with the last update deal. I believe I read somewhere that that's how iTunes handles it. Also read somewhere that there is a flag in the FAT32 file system that indicate when a file has been updated.

'Course a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and coupled with a lot of fine Napa Cabernet (my hometown don'cha know), that's even more dangerous, similar to Absolut Citron I'd say

But you get my drift.

Seems to me that it'd be fairly simple to make the assumption that if a file was updated in ANY way since the last synch it should be re-uploaded to the ipod.

Oh Steve, (if I can call you Steve), something else to think about is to somehow tap into the ipod's playcounts. That way smartlists could be generated just as if I were listening to my songs through MJ. Again, this is an iTunes feature, so I know that the iPod keeps track of it, it's just getting at that data and plugging it into MJ's playcount database field.

Gosh, we make your job sound so easy don't we. I guess I'm probably the most annoying type of person (I run QA for a software company)--that means I spend my days not writing code, but asking developers to fix things with absolutely no regard for how difficult it is.

Yes, what a pain we QA types can be.

Oh, shoot, my glass is empty! Talk to ya'll later......

Adam (S)

SteveG · « **Reply #45 on:** October 12, 2002, 01:30:30 pm »

Hello everyone,

FYI on the Plug-in, I should have something available for limited testing tomorrow. Currently I have MJ reporting file information from IPOD and am still working out some bugs with rewriting the iTunesDB. Today was pretty productive and my fingers are crossed for tomorrow. My goal is to be able to have MJ upload and delete files and report most information fields in the first trial. Once that is stable, I will look at any and all feature requests.

Off to have a beer.

More tomorrow.

Steve

udeups · « **Reply #46 on:** October 12, 2002, 02:19:39 pm »

Now, when you say "tomorrow" are we talking around 12:01 AM or later in the day? Mainly, I'm wondering when I should begin hitting F5 to see an update to this thread.

No, I'm not anxious.

TimB · « **Reply #47 on:** October 12, 2002, 05:05:06 pm »

Quote

I should have something available for limited testing tomorrow.

Argh! I'm on the road without my firewire PCMCIA card. Argh! Argh! Argh!

Well y'all enjoy it, I can't wait to hear the feedback.

-=Tim=-

willrmc · « **Reply #48 on:** October 12, 2002, 08:06:47 pm »

wooohooo. ooh let me be a guinea pig for this. i will love you forever.

Kurt Young · « **Reply #49 on:** October 12, 2002, 08:16:02 pm »

Ready, Willing, and Sober, sir. Well... I will be tomorrow. Tonight's a different :hic: story!

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Author Topic: How is the Ipod support coming? (Read 15906 times)