Topic: converting ape to flac files - tagging error (Read 6380 times)

nickharambee · « **on:** December 13, 2005, 04:12:25 am »

hi

i am trying to convert my music collection from ape to flac files using MC11, but each time i try i get the following error message:

media center encountered errors while tagging and moving files. check that the files exist, and are not read-only, and are not in use by other programs.

Tagging error: [location of new file]

all the fields are still complete in MC, but when i use a tag editor to look at the tags of the new FLAC file, only the filename and the bitrate show, and none of the other tags/fields, i.e. artist/album, etc. I presume that because i converted using MC and replaced the old APE files, that MC still has the tag info for each file stored in the library database. But i need the tag info in the new files also. Can someone please suggest what i need to do to get this working properly

thanks

nick

marko · « **Reply #1 on:** December 13, 2005, 04:33:17 am »

what version of the flac encoder are you using?

I think that if you d'load version 1.5 you're problems will go away.

http://members.cox.net/scot.thompson/
Media Center FLAC Plugins

nickharambee · « **Reply #2 on:** December 13, 2005, 04:42:09 am »

thanks marko

I may have already had version 1 .5 installed, but I uninstalled the flac encoder anyway and installed version 1.5 from the link you posted, but I still have the same problem

Nick

Alex B · « **Reply #3 on:** December 13, 2005, 05:18:00 am »

What does the filename field show inside the media library? Are the names correct for the new FLAC files?

Did you try to update the tags? Tools > Library Tools> Update Tags (from library)

nickharambee · « **Reply #4 on:** December 13, 2005, 05:23:36 am »

the file name is correct but no other tags are showing

when i try to update tags from library i get the following message:

i file updated (1 failure)

and still no tags!

nick

marko · « **Reply #5 on:** December 13, 2005, 05:54:27 am »

right...

knew this was familiar

if you want more info, here's a link to my posts in the flac thread.

it's the decoder that does the tag reading for the filetype info window etc...

Quote from: scthom on September 10, 2005, 11:34:10 am

Typically this error is the result of the decoder, not the encoder. The decoder plugin is what handles all of the tagging. The encoder pretty much only does one thing, and that is make a plain vanilla file from a WAV.

so, are you using the latest version of the decoder too?

nickharambee · « **Reply #6 on:** December 13, 2005, 06:10:12 am »

ok, so i installed the latest decoder and all seems to be working fine now with the tags - so thanks for that

one further point though - it took 1.25 mins to convert a 4 min file (using a 1.6Ghz centrino processor), which seems a little slow. it would mean that it would take about 15 days to convert my whole music collection. is there a quicker way of doing this using other software?

thanks

nick

marko · « **Reply #7 on:** December 13, 2005, 06:34:06 am »

glad to hear that worked out for you.

mine took just shy of a minute to get through an 11 minute file. amd athlon xp 2800+ running @ just over 2GHz.
that was when I did a quick test before initially replying to you.

I just tried a 4:15 file and it took 30 seconds, with an on-the-fly ipod sync running at the same time.
I have one other program here that can do the job, and in testing on that same 4 minute file, it actually took 5 seconds longer.
I don't know if the commandline tools would be any quicker, I doubt it though.

perhaps you could batch them up overnight?

nickharambee · « **Reply #8 on:** December 13, 2005, 11:46:57 am »

just to say that MC took 1min 25 secs to convert a 4 min ape file to FLAC, and two other software programs took 21 and 25 secs respectively for the same conversion (fairstars audio converter 1.51 and fast audio converter 1.2). should there be this much difference between MC and these programs?

nick

JimH · « **Reply #9 on:** December 13, 2005, 11:53:01 am »

Take a look at your encoder settings for FLAC.

jgreen · « **Reply #10 on:** December 13, 2005, 12:19:51 pm »

Nick--
In particular, see if you have "verify" enabled. This option takes 30%-40% more time.

Alex B · « **Reply #11 on:** December 13, 2005, 12:35:41 pm »

AFAIK the MA decoder and FLAC encoder components are standard. I have not heard about alternative faster versions.

I would use a separate HD for the target files and delete the source files only after checking the results. Converting and replacing the original files on the same HD is the slowest option. (decode > encode to a temp file > replace the original file)

nickharambee · « **Reply #12 on:** December 14, 2005, 03:03:37 am »

thanks for these posts

i have unchecked all of the options for FLAC encoder, and still i am getting a time of 1 min 25 secs for conversion from APE for a 4 min file.

even though it doesn't seem to be effecting the time, can someone please tell me what the three options actually do, and whether i should check them or not (irrespective of time to encode), that is:

(i) verify encoding; (ii) add 4k padding block; (iii) add seek table (if possible).

for the comparison of times between MC and other software i have been converting the APE files to FLAC but keeping a copy of both in the original folder (rather than replacing). ideally i would like to convert to another drive, but then i have the problem of cover art which i keep in each album folder. is there a way of converting to a new drive and sending the cover art to the new drive too? if not, which i suspect to be the case, i think my best option is to convert and replace the files on the original drive, and then copy all of the folders including music and art to the new drive, but if there is a simpler way i would be glad to know about it.

another issue is the directories that are created when enabling a move to a new drive in the conversion process. there is an option to 'create artist/album subdirectories here', but i have my directories created as [Album Artist (auto)]\[Album], so i am not sure that this will work. i have tested on a few files, and for most the directories seemed to be created correctly (e.g. (multiple artists)/album name/files, for compilations), but some not. again, any advice on this would be much appreciated.

thanks

nick

jgreen · « **Reply #13 on:** December 14, 2005, 12:42:15 pm »

Nick--

http://flac.sourceforge.net

Here you can learn all about flac directly from the source. If you search, you will find definitive answers to all your questions. For somewhat mangled and incomplete answers, read on.

First of all, you should check the "compression" setting both on the MC converter and the others. There is no compression involved, but that setting determines how hard the encoder will work looking for ways to make the file (losslessly) smaller. If, for example, you have MC set to 8 and another set to 1, you would see a significant difference right there. As an aside, there is no increase in CPU load to decode either setting on playback.

Barring that, here's what I know (and so much more) about your questions:

1. Verify is writing bits and then reading them, serially. I've used it both ways and found about a 30% difference in time. I have never found an encoding error either way (apart from a 1-hour drama one morning when I tried a non-released alpha version of the plugin for scthom). My confidence in FLAC and in scthom's plugins is very high.

2 and 3: I know enough to direct you to the plugins page where you can read it directly from scthom. I use both these settings enabled, altough eartlier encoders didn't have the option. Note that all files encoded either way play fine and the data integrity is NEVER affected.

I play FLACS encoded within MC from each of the various versions and with all combinations of settings present in encoding. Additionally, I have FLACs encoded through dbPoweramp and from unknown provenance (etree.org). All play perfectly and all decode properly to WAV when I periodically check them.

I've never seen anything like the 90-secs its taking you, but I've never converted from APE and, IMO, that end of things might be worth checking also.

nickharambee · « **Reply #14 on:** December 14, 2005, 12:56:00 pm »

thanks a lot jgreen

you seem to be saying that i don't need to bother with verify setting given the extra time it should take and the quality of FLAC (for some reason i am not getting any difference in time with and without verify). i was using the same quality settings with all the programs (highest quality -

.

can anyone advise on the issues of how i move cover art with music files during or after conversion.

thanks

nick

nickharambee · « **Reply #15 on:** December 15, 2005, 10:56:05 am »

ok, I think I am going to try to stick to MC for conversion, because I am having tagging problems with the other programs, but can anyone say why it might be taking nearly three times as long for a conversion than other programs. other people don't seem to have this problem with MC

also, any advice about moving and converting files at the same as moving cover art would be appreciated. do I need to move all of my folders with music/cover art first and then convert on the new drive?

thanks

nick

Alex B · « **Reply #16 on:** December 15, 2005, 05:36:32 pm »

Quote from: nick_harambee on December 15, 2005, 10:56:05 am

also, any advice about moving and converting files at the same as moving cover art would be appreciated. do I need to move all of my folders with music/cover art first and then convert on the new drive?

Make a new temporary library and import the images. You can use standard MC tools for moving them:

1. Fill Properties From Filename (use only the "Directories" dialog)
2. Rename Files From Properties (use only the "Directories" dialog)

or

1. Find and Replace > Tick only: Filename (path) > Find what: C:\My Music\, Replace: D:\Music\ (for example)

If you have the images in the album folders the image links in your music library will be correct because they contain only the filenames, not the paths.

nickharambee · « **Reply #17 on:** December 16, 2005, 03:38:41 am »

thanks alex

does anyone have any ideas about the slowness of MC in making conversions, and whether there is anything i can do to rectify this?

it is currently taking about 2 mins to convert a 5 min file (where other programs take about 30-40 secs), and at this rate it will take me about 3 weeks solid to convert my whole collection!!

thanks

nick

Alex B · « **Reply #18 on:** December 16, 2005, 03:59:40 am »

As a test, you could convert a Monkey's Audio 3.99 file to wave and and after that convert the wave file to FLAC.

Post the file length (time), the used MA and FLAC settings and the conversion times.

I'll try the same test with a similar file.

Alex B · « **Reply #19 on:** December 16, 2005, 04:07:02 am »

Actually, you could use a file from here:

http://www.archive.org/audio/etree.php

Then it would be exactly the same file.

nickharambee · « **Reply #20 on:** December 16, 2005, 04:13:39 am »

hi alex

i converted a 3min ape file (3.97, fast) to wav (this took 13 secs) and then the wav to flac (quality 8, verify unchecked, other 2 settings checked) (this took 1 min 47 secs).

so clearly the slowness is due to the conversion to flac. marko reports a 1 minute conversion time for an 11 minute file, so clearly i have a problem here. as i say other programs take about 30 sec for a 4 min file.

nick

nickharambee · « **Reply #21 on:** December 16, 2005, 04:32:16 am »

sorry alex - i left out the time for wav to flac conversion. it is now included in my last post

Alex B · « **Reply #22 on:** December 16, 2005, 05:42:36 am »

Some test results:

wave file: 3 min 9 s, 32639 KB, 1411 kbps

MC 11.0.316 Ma3.99 F -> wave 6 s MA3.99 F -> FLAC 8 45 s wave -> MA3.99 H 8 s 14748 KB 637 kbps wave -> MA3.99 N 7 s 15024 KB 649 kbps wave -> MA3.99 F 5 s 15611 KB 674 kbps wave -> FLAC 8 43 s 16219 KB 701 kbps wave -> FLAC 5 9 s 16285 KB 704 kbps wave -> FLAC 3 7 s 16498 KB 713 kbps dbpoweramp wave -> FLAC 8 17 s 16247 KB 702 kbps wave -> FLAC 5 3 s 16313 KB 705 kbps wave -> FLAC 3 2 s 16526 KB 714 kbps

both FLAC encoders use this: libFLAC 1.1.2 20050205

Obviously dbpoweramp uses different internal settings because the file sizes don't mach. I hope scthom can tell us what is happening here.

OT: After seeing these test results I decided to continue with MA High.

Alex B · « **Reply #23 on:** December 16, 2005, 05:52:15 am »

I just noticed that the reason for the size difference is the different padding block size used:

MC

Quote

Free Lossless Audio Codec (FLAC)
44.1 kHz Sample Rate
16 Bits Per Sample
2 Channels

Min Block Size = 4608
Max Block Size = 4608
Min Frame Size = 14
Max Frame Size = 13334
Padding Block = 4096 bytes

Vorbis Comment Block (40 bytes):
Vendor String = reference libFLAC 1.1.2 20050205

dbpoweramp

Quote

Free Lossless Audio Codec (FLAC)
44.1 kHz Sample Rate
16 Bits Per Sample
2 Channels

Min Block Size = 4608
Max Block Size = 4608
Min Frame Size = 14
Max Frame Size = 13334
Padding Block = 32768 bytes

Vorbis Comment Block (40 bytes):
Vendor String = reference libFLAC 1.1.2 20050205

Something else than different encoder settings is causing the slower encoding.

Alex B · « **Reply #24 on:** December 16, 2005, 08:24:16 am »

This becomes interesting. I made some new tests. This time I converted a bigger file from wave to Monkey's Audio.

The conditions were identical for the both programs: I deleted the previous ape file before encoding the next, I used separate HDs for the source and the destination, firewall & virusscanner were off, I repeated the test three times and got the same results on each run.

wave file: 20 min 0 s, 206723 KB, 1411 kbps

MC 11.0.316 wave -> MA3.99 H 49 s 95059 KB 648 kbps wave -> MA3.99 N 43 s 96463 KB 658 kbps wave -> MA3.99 F 32 s 98648 KB 673 kbps dbpoweramp wave -> MA3.99 H 34 s 95059 KB 648 kbps wave -> MA3.99 N 28 s 96463 KB 658 kbps wave -> MA3.99 F 18 s 98648 KB 673 kbps

Something strange must be going on.

Alex B · « **Reply #25 on:** December 16, 2005, 09:24:46 am »

Monkey's Audio itself produced similar results wit dbpa after I disabled the Automatic Verify option.

Monkey's Audio 3.99F (GUI) wave -> MA3.99 H ~34 s 95037 KB 648 kbps wave -> MA3.99 N ~28 s 96442 KB 658 kbps wave -> MA3.99 F ~18 s 98626 KB 673 kbps

One note though, the file sizes are a bit different this time. (none of the files had tags)

Edit: fixed the wrong order
Edit 2: Actually the times seem to be a bit inconsistent, but still quite near the dbpa results. MC is clearly slower.

nickharambee · « **Reply #26 on:** December 16, 2005, 12:50:22 pm »

thanks for this info alex

i am now looking at foobar, which is the quickest yet for conversion (around 15 secs for a 4 min file). the problem i am having with this is with the tagging. all of the tags are copied to the new FLAC files, but they aren't all showing up when i import into MC. the basic tags are showing, but not 'rating' and other tags i have set up in MC. do you have any ideas about this?

thanks

nick

GHammer · « **Reply #27 on:** December 16, 2005, 05:28:49 pm »

On that, I see the same.
If I transcode a tagged and rated APE to FLAC, the rating does not appear when I add the FLAC to MC. Other fields do appear (style, involved people, etc)

If I transcode an APL to APE and import it, the rating is shown.
The reason is that the rating tag is different for the two types of files.
APE/APL use- MEDIA JUKEBOX: RATING
FLAC uses- RATING

scthom · « **Reply #28 on:** December 17, 2005, 10:18:05 am »

Wow, lot's of stuff going on the last few days I missed

First thing I notice --
Compression Level 8 is not required. As all levels are equally lossless, try to find a setting that minimizes compression time and file size. Decompression time is marginally affected, but practically negligible. Check the forums on HydrogenAudio for more tests. The plugin defaults to 6, though the command line version defaults to 5. My experience is they take practically the same time but you get a decently smaller file.

As for the time difference --
There are differences in the architecture of the various tools. It's possible that some tools have to go to disk much more often than others, which obviously will take more time. Also, I don't claim to have optimized the logic in the plugin to go as fast as possible.

scthom · « **Reply #29 on:** December 17, 2005, 10:20:43 am »

Quote from: nick_harambee on December 15, 2005, 10:56:05 am

ok, I think I am going to try to stick to MC for conversion, because I am having tagging problems with the other programs...

Are you still having the tagging problems? From the thread it seems like it might be fixed.

Alex B · « **Reply #30 on:** December 17, 2005, 10:26:45 am »

Quote from: scthom on December 17, 2005, 10:18:05 am

First thing I notice --
Compression Level 8 is not required. As all levels are equally lossless, try to find a setting that minimizes compression time and file size. Decompression time is marginally affected, but practically negligible. Check the forums on HydrogenAudio for more tests. The plugin defaults to 6, though the command line version defaults to 5. My experience is they take practically the same time but you get a decently smaller file.

wave -> FLAC 8 43 s 16219 KB 701 kbps wave -> FLAC 5 9 s 16285 KB 704 kbps wave -> FLAC 3 7 s 16498 KB 713 kbps

I didn't try 6, but the size difference between 5 and 8 was really marginal. The speed difference was huge.

Alex B · « **Reply #31 on:** December 17, 2005, 10:39:31 am »

Matt,

any comments on these results?

Quote

wave file: 20 min 0 s, 206723 KB, 1411 kbps

MC 11.0.316 wave -> MA3.99 H 49 s 95059 KB 648 kbps wave -> MA3.99 N 43 s 96463 KB 658 kbps wave -> MA3.99 F 32 s 98648 KB 673 kbps dbpoweramp wave -> MA3.99 H 34 s 95059 KB 648 kbps wave -> MA3.99 N 28 s 96463 KB 658 kbps wave -> MA3.99 F 18 s 98648 KB 673 kbps

Monkey's Audio 3.99F (GUI) wave -> MA3.99 H ~34 s 95037 KB 648 kbps wave -> MA3.99 N ~28 s 96442 KB 658 kbps wave -> MA3.99 F ~18 s 98626 KB 673 kbps

Is it possible to tweak MC faster or has it always some active process running that will reduce the speed? For example, I had the Library Server running (as always), but no clients were connected.

jgreen · « **Reply #32 on:** December 17, 2005, 11:41:26 am »

Alex, I think that if they could speed it up that would be great, but I don't think the difference is material. Recall that MC is writing to- and saving a database at the end of each conversion. And it's this auto-saving mode that erases the headaches for me when I'm converting large batches of files.

dbPowerAmp is a great little program, but I will never go back to it, now that I can get conversions done within MC. I don't care if the difference is hours. For me, any time factors have to be doubled for dbPA because I ended up overwriting or erasing my outputs, and then redoing it twice.

Alex B · « **Reply #33 on:** December 17, 2005, 12:16:39 pm »

I forgot to mention these test conditions:

- MC was not allowed to write any tags (in general options)
- The update database, send original file to the recycle bin and create subdirectories options were disabled (in converter options)
- The wave file was not imported. I selected it in Drives & Devices and I didn't fill anything in the library fields.

The time difference was 14-15 seconds. The Monkey's Audio encoding times were 44-78 % slower with MC.

scthom · « **Reply #34 on:** December 20, 2005, 08:22:23 pm »

Quote from: Alex B on December 17, 2005, 10:26:45 am

wave -> FLAC 8 43 s 16219 KB 701 kbps wave -> FLAC 5 9 s 16285 KB 704 kbps wave -> FLAC 3 7 s 16498 KB 713 kbps

I didn't try 6, but the size difference between 5 and 8 was really marginal. The speed difference was huge.

Yeah, that's what they discovered at HydrogenAudio as well. You used pretty small files, and my (personal) experience is that on audio files, 6 makes a bit of difference in file size compared to 5, but practically the same encoding time. 7, makes not so much difference file size, but takes a noticible amount of time longer. So 6 hits the "sweet spot" for me in terms of file size gain for negligible time difference.

nickharambee · « **Reply #35 on:** December 21, 2005, 08:28:07 am »

thanks for all these posts

when i use setting 5 for encoding to FLAC the time is 19 secs as opposed to about 2 minutes for 8. so if i decide to use MC for conversion as opposed to foobar (which takes 14 secs using commandline encoder), i will use setting 5.

nick

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Author Topic: converting ape to flac files - tagging error (Read 6380 times)