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[tcman41]

Been playing with this thing awhile, man what a big joke, can't do anything with it, really sad attempt by the microsoft boys:



TC  ?

[LonWar]

I really hate media players that don't use the panes system... I really hate clicking +'s in trees...

[ferent]

UAUH!!! This software use the same multi-cover as MC

who has copied?

[JimH]

We're the thieves.  But they've stolen a lot more from us. 

[Robert Taylor]

Why doesn't someone snitch the nice shiny graphics and build a new skin for MC?

[raym]

Why doesn't someone snitch the nice shiny graphics and build a new skin for MC?

... and do it for Theater View too (sorry, had to say it  )

[datdude]

I really hate media players that don't use the panes system... I really hate clicking +'s in trees...

I agree but you still have to do a lot of clickin' in MC.  Would love to see auto open 'view' menu for each tile.

[hit_ny]

Been playing with this thing awhile, man what a big joke, can't do anything with it, really sad attempt by the microsoft boys:

What about m$'s XP Media Center ?

[Valisystem]

After reading the hype about MS WMP11, I'm really underwhelmed. It's still wildly unusable for large music collections - too much space used onscreen for too little content. The album view is improved, and it's adequate for people with a few dozen albums or a few hundred songs. I can't imagine managing more files than that with WMP11. I read a lot about increased database speed, but so far it's erratic - slow to switch from one view to another (genre to artist, say) but fast to return search results. MC is fast across the board.

MC's ability to switch between panes and album views; the ability to display a file list below an album view; and the action window for tag info - easy, necessary, and missing from WMP11.

[runemail]

After reading the hype about MS WMP11, I'm really underwhelmed. It's still wildly unusable for large music collections - too much space used onscreen for too little content. The album view is improved, and it's adequate for people with a few dozen albums or a few hundred songs. I can't imagine managing more files than that with WMP11. I read a lot about increased database speed, but so far it's erratic - slow to switch from one view to another (genre to artist, say) but fast to return search results. MC is fast across the board.

MC's ability to switch between panes and album views; the ability to display a file list below an album view; and the action window for tag info - easy, necessary, and missing from WMP11.

I think the WMP 11 gets more and better content onscreen (for playback). It doesnt do as much as MC but what it does it does way faster and better. Its not a powertool like MC.

"In its internal studies, Microsoft determined that libraries of 10,000 tracks or more are now typical rather than the exception to the rule. Thus, WMP 11 is engineered to handle not only thousands but also millions of tracks" -- News.com

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6450_7-6526496.html?tag=cnetfd.sd

Still not close to being a MC-replacement, but faster to browse if you have a large collection.

And i wonder how well the new advanced audio fingerprinting system works.

Update:
They have some serious issues reading tags right, if displayed in extended view with coverart, albums are split up. But it somehow fixes its mistakes, would like to know what is going on in the background here. Does it asume or use data from AMG to correct?
And it randomly fails to read the artist tag and recycle the album tag as the artist.(beta)
It only tells you how many albums from each artist if you have more than 6(if 6 or less, its displayed in the stack)
Sometimes it can update tags from AMG, and sometimes it dont, even if the info is there.
But on the other hand this is the fastest mediaplayer with the "best" user interface I have ever used.
And the last.fm plugin is working!

Now lets see what apple can do about this, they cant let ms have the best mediaplayer...

[geekbeats2]

Well for being a free download it looks pretty good to me.  If it supports browsing via Artist image, i might have to switch.

[ferent]

Remember WMP11 isnīt free. You have to pay Windows XXX to use it ;-)

[geekbeats2]

No, it really is free, all versions of Windows Media Player are free. I just read that their new MTV music store service "URGE" will be integrated into it aswell which should make all the kids crazy.

Remember WMP11 isnīt free. You have to pay Windows XXX to use it ;-)

[Valisystem]

It doesnt do as much as MC but what it does it does way faster and better. Its not a powertool like MC.

. . . Still not close to being a MC-replacement, but faster to browse if you have a large collection.

I read the hype about the speed. But I've fed WMP11 a couple of thousand tracks and I'm getting delays of several seconds switching from artist to album to genre views. MC yawns at 30,000 tracks and reacts instantly, of course.

And I'm still waiting for the magic where WMP11 cleans up tags and pulls in album covers - tag reading appears to be a complete mess right now.

Still, those might be beta problems that can be ironed out. The more important problem is the screen layout for library management - superficially pretty, but it uses screen space very inefficiently.

I'm an old guy now but I try to keep up. Maybe I'm missing something. Is Microsoft's music service really going to be hip now that it's got an MTV logo? Will "Urge" be the hot name on the streets?

I mean - MTV? It's so, so . . . irrelevant . . .

[hit_ny]

Is there a difference between WMP & M$ windows media center ?

One is free the other isn't.

From what i hear the TV part in M$ media center is pretty good. The one with the very similar looking Thetre view as you see in JRiver's Theatre view.

If you want to make comparisons, maybe like with like is fairer.

[ferent]

Sorry, but if MWP is free, why sell Microsoft a version cheaper without WMP and another expensive with that software?

[brainsoup]

Ok... so whether WMP is free or not, I like it. The browsing is intuitive and informative. You get to see all the info from one artist in one view - track names, ratings etc which is very unlike MC.

Don't get me wrong, I like MC's features a lot more but in terms of ease of use Microsoft have certainly done their homework. MC definately needs a makeover - it just is beginning to feel very dated, very cluttered and somewhat dull. There are things missing that should be there and things that are there that seem unneccesary.

Thankfully some things are missing in the beta (most played playlist - err hello!?) and a much worse tagging/file naming system to MC but if this is sorted by the final release then I think it will be time for me to move on from MC.

Let's see what MC12 is going to offer in return.

[Alex B]

Opinions differ. For me, MC is the easy, intuitive and efficient media handling package that I use everyday. MC does not look dated. IMO, MC's new browsing system is the most advanced audio file browsing system so far.

I use several other more specialized programs besides MC, but WMP is certainly not one of them. I doubt the new version would be any better for me.

[geekbeats2]

Is there a difference between WMP & M$ windows media center ?

One is free the other isn't.

From what i hear the TV part in M$ media center is pretty good. The one with the very similar looking Thetre view as you see in JRiver's Theatre view.

If you want to make comparisons, maybe like with like is fairer.

You guys are mixing up Windows Media Player with Windows Media Center (which is an entire OS).
Actually what we know as Windows Media Center Edition now, will be totally free in Vista, as it will come integrated with all versions of Vista from my understanding. But with Windows Media Player 11's drastic improvements the only real difference between the two will be Window Media Centers DVR abilities.

[LonWar]

This is my take,

Installed
Can't add my mp3's to the library... The watch folder doesn't stick. Shows AC/DC as AC
The ONLY thing I like about it, is the EQ. I have always hated the look of the EQ in MC. I think it should be shown in the AW and Skinned.

But that is the only thing... What a POS!

[tcman41]

Does POS stand for "Positively Outstanding Software"? 

TC 

[LonWar]

Does POS stand for "Positively Outstanding Software"? 

TC 

Yep... 

I did notice that they have the cover art windmill.... So, who got it from who?

[brainsoup]

I'm not saying that MC is unintuitive, just that it takes quite a few clicks to get to places you want to get to, bits pop up all over the place (files at the bottom, playlists in the AW) and hence the screen becomes cluttered.
Information is hidden (to view album ratings you need to 'hover' over the text area of the tile). My boyfriend has struggled to use MC on my HTPC for quite a while now - i don't think he would have struggled with 11.0 as much but 11.1 has changed the interface significantly and compared to WMP it isn't as slick.

In one case he was viewing album art with the tree minimised, played an album and then added another to the playlist. When he wanted to remove a track from playing now how was he to know that he had to expand the tree and then click playing now? For me the playing now view is a major part of the application and it is hidden away in one place that can be hidden.

Having used WMP11 for just 30 mins this evening I was doing things that I would struggle to do in MC, not that I couldn't - it would just take a lot of time and effort.

i browsed by artist, I liked the fact i could see all the tracks, with ratings grouped by album. i really liked that i could then sort by rating and it would then group (rather nicely i feel) by rating and then album by artist. I likes how you could hide the tree and not need it at all. I really liked the top level view scheme where you can choose to browse by artist/album/genre before seeing any thumbnails. I was actually enjoying browsing through and rating my collection.

i hope that MC tries to update itself in light of WMP - take on the best bits and build them into its powerful program. I hope MC delivers on it's promise of video monstrosities as I feel that the competition is catching up.

[Pink Waters]

Well,..
I didn't like the idea of the browsing pattern.
it only allows you to select artits or geners or albums, and if you used genre then double click a genere and you have all the albums in that genre, it should be genre>artist>album right so you can be more comfortable handling bigger libraries.

it somewhat faster than MC for me but as a whole package doesn't ring a bell to me, i like MC instead

[MrHaugen]

Brainsoup.
MC can be just as easy to use as WMP. You just have to configure it a bit for it to work with your personal taste. The reason is offcourse the endless possibilities of the application. If you don't need any of those go ahead and download WMP 11. I agree with one thing thou. The theater view could be better. But the PixOS skin makes the standard view sweet.

One more thing. WMP are free. Windows XP that it comes with, is not. We don't have to pay extra for calculator or paint do we? The same thing applies for Visat. Though there WILL be a version of Vista WITHOUT WMP, WMC and all the other crappy media funktions. Thank god. I'm going enterprise.

If anyone feel offended. Please don't

[lOth]

No iPod support in WMP, that's what cut it for me.

If WMP11 had iPod support, the $40 difference would cut it.

It's as simple as that for me. I guess I'm not alone.

[JimH]

I feel that the competition is catching up.

Thanks for the "left-handed" compliment.   

[jgreen]

JimH--

#1.  In my home, chicks are not allowed to touch the stereo. 

#2.  Setting aside my difficulties keeping up with the modern world, I think there is a genuine difference between what brainsoup expects of a media player and what I do.  While I'm trying to talk you into vertical split views so I can shows six panels of database simultaneously, I think brainsoup (and a fair number of others) expect a straightforward path to the limited set of things they want to do with a media player. 

While you can't please everybody, I think there is room for jriver to create an on-demand, limited version of MC, a partial loading of the full program.  Of all the experiences within MC, the only one that I find disappointing is right-click/play with media center.  Amazingly, this calls the full program, and loads my entire db, and takes nearly 30 seconds, even though I only want to play a single track I browsed within windows.

Surely it's possible to load the player without loading the (world's best) database program?  Even if you only load a default mini-me skin and call WMP internally (remember, it's part of the OS), I think this would go miles down the road for keeping your brand in front of the casual user.

As far as Micros**t finally waking up to the 10,000 tracks that their target user wants to catalogue, what are the chances that they're actually going to do it right?   I think that the high ground that MC has staked out is the right place to be.   

[sonicbox]

So far Windows Media Player 11 is pretty impressive (as is the MTV URGE store interface)... a significant improvement over 10, especially for casual users.  It's far less confusing than both WMP 10 and MC 11.  It'll give iTunes/iTunes Music Store a decent run... if, of course, more portable vendors get with the program and make good iPod competitors.  And there is now one more choice for subscription music fans...

However, WMP 11 took away some features I was used to in WMP 10.  You can't even drag tracks between albums and I don't think you can show web based "More Info" about a specific artist or album at the same time you are playing/browsing your local library.

[hit_ny]

MC as has always been said is for big collections. The complications the casual user has with MC is (i think) that its catered to large collections. Well if you have a small collection go with WMP or iTunes or some one else. It's when you grow out of those apps that you will find MC appealing. Restrictions that were there previously, dont exist anymore and all of a sudden a whole new world has been opened up. From personal exp i usually recommend MC to ppl that find thier current media mgmt apps lacking.

I'm more interested to hear from ppl that have tried WMP for an extended period of time and then make the comparisons. On first blush WMP might seem more intuiitve how about a few months later ?

I can't believe a company that actively listens to its customers as opposed to telling them what they need is at a disadvantage wrt to usability.

[lOth]

Let's put it in another blunt way: WMP11 is fine for people who are interested in playing their music quickly, MC11 will content people who tend to spend as much time (maybe more?) contemplating, browsing, ordering their music collection. I believe there's a market for both, one is just bigger than the other.

[schmoose]

hmmm, wasn't going to give this a try, but this thread has got me interested.

are there plugins for this to play .flac, .ape and the gang?  although, I think I already know the answer....Directshow :-(  I do like the concept of Directshow, but in practice it is a pain in the arse having to manage filters that don't play nicely.

how about importing our MC database into WiMP11?  will WiMP11 import data in XML format?

[edit] arrggghh. just looked at the screenshot again.  like someone else said previously, the tree browsing is such a turnoff....so oldskool, so Windows.

don't care for the tree in MC either, but at least there are the pains, and the album art browsing implementation is sweet.[/edit]

[schmoose]

While I'm trying to talk you into vertical split views so I can shows six panels of database simultaneously, I think brainsoup (and a fair number of others) expect a straightforward path to the limited set of things they want to do with a media player.

please keep talking.  i've silently wanted vertical splits ever since i tried horizontal splits.  ideally, i would hide the tree view, and have the library view, a playing now view and a track info view all showing at the same time.

there's not enough vertical screen real estate for all this to be displayed in a pleasing/non-confusing manner.  would be much better if we could make use of unused horizontal real estate.

[Mr ChriZ]

Can we have those fadeable buttons in MC, cuz there cool 

[Doof]

are there plugins for this to play .flac, .ape and the gang?  although, I think I already know the answer....Directshow :-(  I do like the concept of Directshow, but in practice it is a pain in the arse having to manage filters that don't play nicely.

Yeah, I tried playing APE in WMP using DirectShow and it was just bad... They played. But forget about gapless playback, which was pretty much THE reason I chose APE so many moons ago.

arrggghh. just looked at the screenshot again.  like someone else said previously, the tree browsing is such a turnoff....so oldskool, so Windows.

don't care for the tree in MC either, but at least there are the pains, and the album art browsing implementation is sweet.

Well, the nice thing that WMP11 has here is that you can hide the tree and actually still navigate around without it. Unfortunately with MC, you're pretty much lost trying this.

I have to admit, I really like the tile view that WMP is using. I went down the path of spending countless obsessive hours organizing my music only to find that, at the end of the day, I still kept clicking the tried and true Artist\Album view scheme. I think if JRiver could combine WMP's tile view with the letter grouping that they use now, you could strike a really nice balance of showing a lot of good information up front and making it easy to get to those Ween or ZZ Top albums with a minimum of scrolling.

[brainsoup]

the nice thing that WMP11 has here is that you can hide the tree and actually still navigate around without it

I have to admit, I really like the tile view that WMP is using. .... I think if JRiver could combine WMP's tile view with the letter grouping that they use now, you could strike a really nice balance of showing a lot of good information up front and making it easy to get to those Ween or ZZ Top albums with a minimum of scrolling.

i think this would be perfect.

I think brainsoup (and a fair number of others) expect a straightforward path to the limited set of things they want to do with a media player

I don't consider myself to be a completely linear, straightforward person. One of the things that i absolutely adore about MC is that you can customise the viewschemes, library fields etc. to whatever suits. The day I learnt this (around MC 10) was the day I knew that MC was the only way I would ever be able to organise my music and video the way I wanted.

Thanks for the "left-handed" compliment.   Wink

You're welcome Jim. I think MC is a top notch product and one that has really stood the test of time, I've been on board since MJ8. One of the reasons I am so concerned about WMP11 is that it is the first time in ages that I have ever been tempted away. I seriously was thinking about whether I could live without my custom viewschemes, and for most of the time I think I could. I ususally use artist/album but there are occasions that I can make MC do things in a way far better than WMP would. There are just things in WMP that i look at and wish MC would do too!

[iflynn]

For what it's worth take me as being fairly close to where your likely mass market is: a much larger collection than average (12,000 tracks and growing), a healthy but not obsessive interest in computers, but also a deep desire to listen to the music so painstakingly ripped and catalogued with ease (and the wife too, the acid test) rather than grappling with database logic and computer complexities.

I often toy with going back to WMP, and this release is better, but for now I've invested so much bloody time in MC that I'll stick with it. Don't get me wrong, I think many aspect of the program are excellent.

But why can't at least some obvious aspects be simplifed? I don't use it for images, or videos why can't I remove them from the tree? Why, no matter how much I try, can't I obliterate 'ratings' and 'genre' from views - I don't use these fields and am royally sick of removing them from view schemes only for them to reappear. Why does MC sometimes get stuck in a mode where no matter what I do I can only see the list and not thumbnails? Why are lists of files from an album not always listed in track order? Why does it associate with JPGs and other files even though I have never issued that instruction - for all users on a PC?? It's a real hassle making these accounts (ie my children's) adminstrators to reset this. I could go on and on, endlessly.

I suppose it's a testament to the program's strengths that I've perservered, don't forget I just want to find and listen to my music, but I suspect that 95% of the population are less techie than me and for them, at the moment, WMP or itunes will always win out. Whereas on this board, you are all in top 1% of techiness and for you this very complexity is MC's greatest strength.

If you could somehow address the needs of those in say from the 75th centile and up, as has been suggested by introducing simplification or the ability to operate in a Wife mode (or whatever) you might have a seriously competitive product with a bigger market. For what it's worth.

[wilfredjg]

WMP never liked it in all its forms. Used RealPlayer, then Musicmatch, found JRiver Media Center in Ver 9,10, and now 11. Love its database, supports Ape. Maybe in WMP 12 Microsoft will get it. Theres more then MP3 and Window Media. Keep up the great work JRiver

[phalanthus]

  wmp11 looks ok but why does it split albums ? - as i have said elsewhere i have tried most of them ( shed tears over useless musicmatch jukebox) - cannot beat Media Center - roll on version 12

[benn600]

How about this:  JRiver should call Microsoft and convince them to throw out WMP and they can license MC to bundle with every copy of Windows.  JRiver could get this URGE thing worked out in a few months and MC could support it for Microsoft customers.

[john h]

For me, one of the best things about MC is its ability to play all the various codecs I have tried over the years (I've never used the apple lossless) without hiccups.  Also, it converts the formats when an external device is used (iPod, Roku, Tivo), so that you don't have to convert your file formats every time you add a device.   

Does WMP do this too?  I always assumed that WMP and iTunes forced you to use their own proprietary codecs. 

[benn600]

I'd say that the white space shows that they don't expect users to have more than a few dozen CDs.

One reason I was so happy to go with FLAC is because I always hated how if I accidentally opened WMP 10, it would start downloading cover art and then put it on my hard drive in this weird system file, hidden file type system and it just bugged me.  WMP doesn't have a clue what to do with FLAC so it does nothing!  And it doesn't ever try to import stuff!  It's so nice to store files in a foreign language so WMP can't touch my stuff.