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[tc4all]

With iTunes reading AIFF uncompressed files and MC reading uncompressed WAV files, the music files play at about 1/2 octive higher or brighter then they actually are on the CD.  When AIFF files that were recorded to the hard drive using iTunes are played using MC, the audio pitch and tone is correct.  I uploaded the latest MC12 version and find it the same.  I am playing from the pc through the USB out to a USB to SPDIF coax converter and then to the digital in on a high end CD player.  Why does it not sound right any other way then when MC12 reads iTunes AIFF files?  Is there a Windows problem here or what?  I did use XP pro and had this.  Now I use Vista and still have the problem.  Any ideas would be welcome. ?

[benn600]

Try converting them all to FLAC and see if you still have the problem.  Wav's aren't liked much anymore.

[Alex B]

With iTunes reading AIFF uncompressed files and MC reading uncompressed WAV files, the music files play at about 1/2 octive higher or brighter then they actually are on the CD.  When AIFF files that were recorded to the hard drive using iTunes are played using MC, the audio pitch and tone is correct.  I uploaded the latest MC12 version and find it the same.  I am playing from the pc through the USB out to a USB to SPDIF coax converter and then to the digital in on a high end CD player.  Why does it not sound right any other way then when MC12 reads iTunes AIFF files?  Is there a Windows problem here or what?  I did use XP pro and had this.  Now I use Vista and still have the problem.  Any ideas would be welcome. ?

Perhaps your problem is real even it sounds unbelievable. I guess the administration removed the other thread because you didn't answer the valid questions the other forum members asked when they tried to help.

I can confirm that I don't have that problem on three different PC configurations.

At first you should explain what kind of difference you are exactly hearing.
- Is the difference like day and night or is it a delicate difference?
- Is the pitch different - i.e. are the songs played too fast? In this case the songs have also shorter durations -- or is it just a difference in the equalization i.e. a difference that could be achieved by adjusting the tone controls? In this case the song durations are correct.
- If the duration is not correct report the exact difference. (For example: an audio CD on system A: 55 min 11 s, the same CD ripped and played on system B: 49 min 55 s.)

Then you should try to take your audio connection type (USB > SPDIF > external DAC) out of the equation. Mentioning it just complicates things if it is not related to the problem. You should test if the sound card's analog output connection has the same problem. Put a factory made recent* Audio CD into your PC drive and listen to it using MC12 and the sound card's analog output (connect the pre-amp, headphones, PC speakers or something similar directly to the sound card's analog connectors). Are the pitch and/or tone correct? Don't care about other possible quality problems that the analog output may produce - just concentrate to the pitch and/or tone. After that rip the CD with MC, play the ripped files with MC and compare the pitch and tone. Is the sound similar with the direct CD playback? The file format of the ripped files should not matter. Use wave or some lossless format like Monkey's Audio (APE) or WMA Lossless.

*Some old Audio CDs can have a pre-emphasis curve applied. In this test you should avoid using such a CD (you can try a Google search for more information about pre-emphasis).

Can you reliably reproduce the problem by ripping new wave audio files with MC12 and playing them through your system? (Try several different audio CDs.) It is unnecessary to mention iTunes (and once again make things complicated) if you can reproduce the problem simply by using MC12 only.

After you have answered these questions we can continue with other things that may help to solve your problem.

[JONCAT]

What exactly is this device: USB to SPDIF coax converter. Powered? Passive?

What sound card are you using? The USB? What brand/model?

Output format in MC (ASIO, DirectSound, Wave)?

Vista has a host of new audio doohickeys IIRC? I assume you've searched the web?

Grab a dependable cheap soundcard with coax out and try that.

DC

[tc4all]

There is a lot to answer and test.  Getting the quiet around here to do the tests can be problematic.  Please allow me until tomorrow evening.  I will give proper responses then.  Believe me I appreciate all the suggestions and am anxious to try them and give responses to anyone willing to offer some help.  I also have a few of my own.

[tc4all]

OK, I have made some more tests.  First, I am suing a HAGUSB from Haggerman for my USB to spdif coax conversion.  There is another out there at $600 that says it reclocks too, but it is expensive with no returns allowed.  Coming form the USB like this deffinately sounds more like the original then using either the spdif coax out of the motherboard, a current ASUS board, or from an M-Audio Audiophile sound card.  Optical out, then converted to spdif coax (all the DAC (cd player) can use) still sounds off, balanced brightly.  Not harsh or edgy, but balanced brightly.

I did load a FLAC file onto the hard drive.  Uning JRMC12 it again, just like the AIFF file when read sing JRMC12 sounded correct.  OK, so how much difference am I talking about.  Digital is known for it's upper extension and many digital cables will tell you how great they are at that, but few mention the music still staying balanced or real or not becoming digital sounding.  they may say the top is not harsh or edgy, but not if it becomes overstated, especially in relation to the bass.  Well, that is kind of what I aam saying.  It is very noticable and very real if llisten to the CD through a good CD player or hear the person live.  Listen to it on it's own, and you might just think it sounds great, except for not having enough bass warmth.  EXample:  Ben Webster playing sax can sound beautiful, full, rich, etc. or it can sound bright, bright and overblown in the highs with none of his rich sound.  With iTunes playing the AIFF song or JRMC12 playing a WAV file (when ripped using JRMC12), it is bright and missing bass. 

I can improve it with a different Digital cable, but since it can also be corrected using JRMC12 to read FLAC or AIFF files, I probably have 2 problems with the digital cable being the easiest to correct, but the other needing to be addressed as well.

Thanks ?

[tc4all]

I can confirm that using headphones on the front out of the computer, the files recorded as uncompressed WAV in JRMC12 do sound correct in tone balance when compared to the actual CD player.  Also, as was the case with iTunes (sorry to mention it), music ripped with JRMC12 onto the hard drive then ripped back to CD and played through the CD player sound correct.  This holds to a lot of what I have been suspecting, and that is that there is nothing wroong with the programs, just in how it gets out to the CD player, meaning any noise it picks up in the computer, jitter, the digital cables, teh USB to coax (although it is much worse with straight digital coax out then via the USB to coax converter).  I am up for suggestions if I have answered all questions.

[Chili-Jam]

In case you are not aware of this: Windows is messing up your audio by changing the sampling rate from 44.1 khz to 48 khz when using normal playback (->kmixer in Windows).

If you are using an audio application that cannot change the audio driver (itunes can't as far as i know) you will not get hifi audio out of your soundcard.

Your HAGUSB Soundcard (that's what it actually is) comes with no special drivers.
You need to use ASIO playback to prevent windows from messing up your sound.
If you got yourself some asio drivers for your HAGUSB and have selected the playback in MC
to use this ASIO driver please tell us so.  If not then go and try it out.

Same holds for your MAudio Audiophile, if you are not using ASIO drivers for your MAudio you will not bypass Windows.
You shoud have ASIO drivers for this card. Try and select this driver for playback in MC and connect your MAudio coax digital
out to your cd-player.
If this doesn't sound right but playback of the same song burned to a cd and played with your cd-player does,
then you can trash your cd-player digital-in.


By the way, buying a soundcard that re-clocks is not a smart move. Your DAC should do this iself and better.

edit: when using digital coax be sure to use 75 ohms, otherwise you will get reflections which might disturb your DAC.

[tc4all]

I got that all except the trashing of my DAC's digital in.  I don't understand.

First, I thought the conversion Windows did was only when you went through the USB, and to be honest, it sounds the best that way.  (shouldn't I know, but does) I also thought that this problem was corrected in Vista.  The audio for that was totally rewritten because MS knew it was pretty poor, according to a Vista book I read today. 

As for the ASIO drivers, the one HAG recommends doesn't seem to work on that machine for me.  Maybe it is due to it being iTunes when I tested it (I never tested it with MC12).  I did find another ASIO driver that did seem to work and maybe there was more spaciousness to the sound, but the tone stayed the same.

I have tried digital coax cables from $50 to $1500, 75 ohm and not, and while using XP, none solved this tone problem although some weren't available then.  Recently I have tried a Green Hornet cable and it gets the tone right without a doubt.  I have also been told that one of the ribbon cables on the market will probably do the same and have better transparency so I will try one of them too.  If a $300 cable solves this problem, fine, but not the $1500 one. 

I'll give the ASIO drivers with MC12 a try on Sunday.

Thanks

[horse]

I am puzzled by this thread and if someone can explain, I want to understand how this happens.

From what I'm reading there is a source file of some music on a disk, it is played via windows through a USB SPDIF to a DAC and then being compared to the original CD.
If the file is listened to via the headphone jack it is ok, however by switching the digital cable between the USB SPFIF and the DAC it is possible to get the tone correct or have it be shifted by 1/2 Octave.
How can any passive cable carrying a digital bit stream shift everything by 1/2 octave?

If this was the case I could take a WAV file of a test tone at 1004 Hz and it would shift to 1506 Hz.

I'm more up on RF technology and appreciate good cabling to avoid loss, phase changes and standing waves, but changing the frequency is not something I've come across.
Analogue I can appreciate the various frequencies being attenuated or phase changes, but digital . . . . . . it's keeping me awake