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[rjm]

I think Media Sub Type (MST) has the potential to be a very useful field for grouping broad categories of media types, but needs some changes for this to work.

I currently use a combination of keywords and directory structures to categorize my media types. A standard method using MST would be better.

I am wondering if JRiver would be willing to consider changes to MST values? If yes, perhaps we can try to reach consensus on this thread.

MST currently allows the following values:
  Audiobook
  Movie
  Music Video
  Podcast
  Radio
  TV Show

As a starting point for discussion, I would like to propose the following standard values:
  Music
  Book
  Movie
  Documentary
  Comedy
  Podcast
  TV
  Radio

For all MST values it is assumed that any Media Type may be assigned to it. For example, a music artist can have audio albums, music videos, cover art images, and text info files. Or, for example, a book can be audio, text, or images (such as in the case of maps).

[trott]

I vote yes.

In the video files area at least, we have both movies and tv shows. However, a category I'm missing is 'home movies' for everything I shot using my camcorder...

[glynor]

If you're going to do that, I'd prefer both book and audiobook.  Some people (like me) keep PDF books in MC, in addition to Audiobooks.

I asked once before (last April) to be able to modify this list myself, instead of having it be a read-only list.  I got no support back then...

[Doof]

Wouldn't Documentary and Comedy be considered Genres?

[glynor]

That's sort of personal opinion... I can see Comedy being a Sub-Type for sure.  Not comedy as in "comedy movie" but Comedy as in "Stand-Up Comedy" (like Robin Williams Live on Broadway for example).  I'd use Documentary as a movie genre, but others might not want it that way.

I actually currently use [Genre] for the purpose of [Media Sub Type], and use my [SubGenre] tag to actually give movies Genres.  That's mainly because I can't customize the [Media Sub Type] list, which is annoying.  I'd really, really prefer to actually use the proper field, but until it is fixed to address these needs, I can't.

I'd also want these SubTypes, in addition to those proposed by RJM (which is a very good list):

Clip (for little clips, funny ads, and other weird short things I have)
Home (for home movies)

I'd also prefer calling it "TV" to "TV Shows".

[MrHaugen]

Wouldn't Documentary and Comedy be considered Genres?

As glynor says, it can be used both ways. I use genre and sub genre for that my self.

Today I have to use my own "Video sub type" to add Conserts, Music Video and Series.
So I would like to expand the list of items under Media Sub Type.
A tag like Misc or Other would also be handy. In general it would be better with more than less tags in my opinion.

[rjm]

In the video files area at least, we have both movies and tv shows. However, a category I'm missing is 'home movies' for everything I shot using my camcorder...

Good point. We need a name for home videos and photos. Perhaps "Personal"?

If you're going to do that, I'd prefer both book and audiobook.  Some people (like me) keep PDF books in MC, in addition to Audiobooks.

I also use MC to manage both PDF and audio books. I am proposing that we have one name "Book" for both and rely on media type to distinguish between audio and text books. If we wanted to collapse the list even further, we could consider a video documentary to be a video version of a book and use "Book" for documentaries as well.

That's sort of personal opinion... I can see Comedy being a Sub-Type for sure.  Not comedy as in "comedy movie" but Comedy as in "Stand-Up Comedy" (like Robin Williams Live on Broadway for example).  I'd use Documentary as a movie genre, but others might not want it that way.

Yes, I was thinking of Stand-Up comedy when I proposed "Comedy".

I prefer not to use Movie for Documentary - they seem quite distinct to me. As suggested above, perhaps we could use "Book" for documentaries if we really wanted to get rid of a category.

I'd also want these SubTypes, in addition to those proposed by RJM (which is a very good list):
Clip (for little clips, funny ads, and other weird short things I have)
Home (for home movies)
I'd also prefer calling it "TV" to "TV Shows".

I support Clips.
I'm ok with "TV Shows", but then we should also use "Radio Shows" for consistency.

Today I have to use my own "Video sub type" to add Conserts, Music Video and Series.
So I would like to expand the list of items under Media Sub Type.
A tag like Misc or Other would also be handy. In general it would be better with more than less tags in my opinion.

I'll add Other. Please add whatever else you think is missing.

Consolidating all of the above we end up with the following revision to the proposal:

  Music
  Book
  Movie
  Comedy
  Podcast
  TV Show
  Radio Show
  Personal
  Clip
  Other

[Robo983]

I agree, glad to know others are thinking the same thing. I wondered if it was some kind of standard since it couldn't be edited. Since the IPODs have to use this field for Music Video vs Movie a free form misstype would cause MC alot of other posts about having that problem. I use the Keyword field also to seperate the subtypes but can see potential problems with that down the road. I do not have any other categories to add to those that have already been posted.

[rjm]

I really hope we can use "Music" instead of "Music Video". Music is music and it comes in a variety of formats including audio, video, images (for cover art) and documents (for artist/album information).

If we need to isolate music videos then it is a simple matter of filtering MST=Music and Media Type=video.

If the iPod needs "Music Video" then perhaps this can be hidden from us when MC builds the iPod database for syncing.

[Jaguu]

Good point here. I think I proposed the same long time ago.  One distinction should also be made for images, for example:
photos (taken with our own camera)
pictures (downloaded from the internet or scanned)

[rjm]

Good point here. I think I proposed the same long time ago.  One distinction should also be made for images, for example:
photos (taken with our own camera)
pictures (downloaded from the internet or scanned)

We are proposing to use "Personal" for photos and videos taken with your own camera.

For photos that are downloaded or scanned, I would like to suggest that they will normally fall into one of the categories such as Movie (for dvd cover art), Book (for book cover art), Music (for album art), etc.

If a photo does not fit one of these categories then I propose we use "Other".

Is this acceptable to you?

Rob

[jgreen]

I would love to see MST expanded, particularly with regard to                   , which I have always felt got second-class status
                                                                                    "Documents"
within MC.  For example, the                  header is not even on the same level in the tree as the arrogant three:  Audio, Images
                                       "Documents"
and Video. 

I'd like to see a "books" sub-media here, as currently "documents" conjures up images of letters from the IRS or your ex-wife's attorney.  Lovers of audiobooks might be surprised to learn that many audiobooks are also available in text form, for the hearing-impaired, I suppose.  But that's how I experience book media, by reading them. 

[glynor]

Again... 

[rjm]

I would love to see MST expanded, particularly with regard to                   , which I have always felt got second-class status
                                                                                    "Documents"
within MC.  For example, the                  header is not even on the same level in the tree as the arrogant three:  Audio, Images
                                       "Documents"
and Video. 

I'd like to see a "books" sub-media here, as currently "documents" conjures up images of letters from the IRS or your ex-wife's attorney.  Lovers of audiobooks might be surprised to learn that many audiobooks are also available in text form, for the hearing-impaired, I suppose.  But that's how I experience book media, by reading them. 

We've got "Book" in the latest revision of the proposed MST values:
  Music
  Book
  Movie
  Comedy
  Podcast
  TV Show
  Radio Show
  Personal
  Clip
  Other

Are you saying that we need additional categories for documents?

[jgreen]

RJM--

I think what you've got is a great start!  I vote yes!

[Jaguu]

Yes, very good structuring, I could live with it...
Now, it is up to J River to open the door...

Edit:

What about TV Series for things like Startrek?

[Jaguu]

On the other hand, we could skip a media sub type, if we would be able to expand the media type. Do we really need a media type restricted to audio, video, image, data, tv? Also the top 3 in MC12 are a major restriction. I hardly use the standard view schemes, as I have my own view schemes for different media sub types.

[rjm]

Yes, very good structuring, I could live with it...
Now, it is up to J River to open the door...

Edit:

What about TV Series for things like Startrek?

The proposal is to use "TV Shows" for tv series like Startrek.

[rjm]

On the other hand, we could skip a media sub type, if we would be able to expand the media type. Do we really need a media type restricted to audio, video, image, data, tv?

It's possible you do not understand how we propose to use Media Type (MT) and Media Sub Type (MST) together to identify broad categories of media. Let me try to clarify with a table:

                                                                     MT
                       Audio                        Video                    Image                          Document

MST
Music                music album               music video            album art                     artist/album information
Book                 audiobook                  documentary          book cover art               PDF books
Movie                     n/a                     dvd or xvid rip         dvd case cover art         movie plot/reviews
Comedy             standup comedy         standup comedy      comic strips                  artist/album information
Podcast             audio podcast            video podcast         podcast artwork             podcast information
TV Show                 n/a                     tv show recording    tv show artwork             tv show information
Radio Show         radio show                       n/a                radio show artwork          radio show information
Personal                  n/a                     home videos           home photos                            n/a
Clip                    audio clips                video clips                    n/a                        clip information
Other                 other audio               other video             other images                 other documents

Also the top 3 in MC12 are a major restriction. I hardly use the standard view schemes, as I have my own view schemes for different media sub types.

Suggest we not mix view concerns with field concerns. They are separate issues. Perhaps we can approach JRiver for view changes after we convince them to make these MST changes. Also, it is possible to customize just about anything in views (including behavior of the top 3) whereas we cannot currently customize MST.

[c1c9k72]

Not to seem stupid, but do the MST values affect anything internally?  I know that my iPod seems to react better to podcasts when the MST is set to 'podcast', but does anything really change when we use the MST to designate things as "radio" or "movie?"  Is some sort of functionality gained, or is it just a record-keeping tool?

That being said, I like the revised list that has been worked up here and look forward, hopefully, to it's implementation.

[rjm]

Not to seem stupid, but do the MST values affect anything internally?  I know that my iPod seems to react better to podcasts when the MST is set to 'podcast', but does anything really change when we use the MST to designate things as "radio" or "movie?"  Is some sort of functionality gained, or is it just a record-keeping tool?

That being said, I like the revised list that has been worked up here and look forward, hopefully, to it's implementation.

MST currently enables bookmarking within MC and on an iPod as follows:

If Use Bookmarking = Yes
   bookmarking is on
Else if Use Bookmarking = No
   bookmarking is off
Else if Use Bookmarking = Default
   If Media Type = video
      bookmarking is on
   Else if Media Type <> video
      If MST = podcast or MST = audiobook
           bookmarking is on
      Else
           bookmarking is off
      Endif
   Endif
Endif

I assume with the new proposed MST values the bookmarking logic would be similar except we would replace audiobook with book above.

I believe that MST is also used by an iPod to identify podcasts (as opposed to music with genre=podcast) and may be used to identify other media types like music videos. I am not an expert on this, perhaps someone else can confirm.

[c1c9k72]

MST currently enables bookmarking within MC and on an iPod as follows:

I assume with the new proposed MST values the bookmarking logic would be similar except we would replace audiobook with book above.

That answers that!  Thank you.

[SwellGuy]

The idea behind MST is to provide MC with additional information for how to treat certain types of content without using hidden, black magic rules or sacraficing the Genre tag. We want the user to be able to identify content as an audiobook and still be able to specify the Genre that the book belongs to.

The MST is certainly used when transferring content to handhelds (particularly iPod's) but is also used by MC internally (to determine bookmarking, for instance). It is not our intention to use this field as a mechanism for general content organization.

Content that is Comedy or Personal requires no special handling from MC (or handhelds) so these types of tags may best be left to fields like Genre and/or Keywords. Text that is a book vs. an IRS audit notice also requires no special handling by MC.

Years ago MC (or MJ) included (nestable) 'Categories' as an organizational mechanism but users were confused by how to use these and weren't sure what the difference between a category, a genre and a playlist was. So you may want to also try to pull off the organization you're looking for with playlists and playlist groups.

[rjm]

The idea behind MST is to provide MC with additional information for how to treat certain types of content without using hidden, black magic rules or sacraficing the Genre tag. We want the user to be able to identify content as an audiobook and still be able to specify the Genre that the book belongs to.

The MST is certainly used when transferring content to handhelds (particularly iPod's) but is also used by MC internally (to determine bookmarking, for instance). It is not our intention to use this field as a mechanism for general content organization.

Content that is Comedy or Personal requires no special handling from MC (or handhelds) so these types of tags may best be left to fields like Genre and/or Keywords. Text that is a book vs. an IRS audit notice also requires no special handling by MC.

Years ago MC (or MJ) included (nestable) 'Categories' as an organizational mechanism but users were confused by how to use these and weren't sure what the difference between a category, a genre and a playlist was. So you may want to also try to pull off the organization you're looking for with playlists and playlist groups.

I am dissapointed to hear this.

You are correct that there are many ways to solve the organizational requirements. I currently use keywords but I could just as easily create a custom field and populate it with the MST values proposed above.

I think the key point is that with some very modest changes to MST we could meet the internal needs of MC and provide a standard organizational framework for users.

As it stands today, everyone has to design their own unique organizational method including associated views. This wastes time, does not encourage best practices, and makes it more difficult for users to share libraries.

[glynor]

I am dissapointed to hear this.

Me too.  There is no standard field that works well, and works with View Schemes to allow the organization model that all of us posting in this thread need.  This leads us to use less-than-perfect compromises... I end up stuck using [Genre] for this purpose.  But the [Genre] of my music works like a true genre, while for video it isn't.

I think the simple additions to the list available to be used for MST would be perfect.  You already have "TV Shows" and "Radio" in there, which require no special processing in MC... Why then, can't we have a couple of others?  No one would force you to use them if you don't want to...

None of the existing standard library fields really work well for this needed organizational tier at all.  Keywords is, IMHO, clearly for another purpose (and is used for another purpose quite heavily by me).  Genre is closest, but I'd really like to be able to use [Genre] to categorize my different movies and shows by "genre"!  The only other option is a custom field... Which is what I should do, but then this forces me to tag my Audiobooks and Podcasts in one way for one purpose and in another way for another purpose.  And why is "TV Show" and "Music Video" already there, if it isn't for this purpose then?

MST sits there unused on my system, when it'd be perfect, if only there were a handful of other choices (RJM's list would be perfect).