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[JimH]

EDIT:  This service is now available.  Details are on our new site at performermc.com.

I've split this thread from another one that talked about the new compact pane view.  So this thread starts mid-conversation with my answer to lalittle's post:

Drop Down Pane?

We agree that the Pane should close when a selection has been made.  Matt made a lot of changes yesterday that really help, but we didn't get a build out.  He added a nice little input at the top where you can also type -- it was JohnT's excellent idea.

and then goes on to talk about why we're working in this area:

The reason we're working on this is to be able to release a MediaNet (formerly MusicNet) store that has 312,000 albums (3,000,000+ tracks) that you can access as a local library.  Browsing it is like browsing your own library.  It was tricky to get it to be fast enough.  A subscription will be about $12/mo.  We have it working and it's great!

[Mastiff]

Interesting! Forgive me for being ignorant, but does that mean that I can keep music from MediaNet, or is it only available as long as I'm connected to the Internet and still pays for the service?

[skeeterfood]

The reason we're working on this is to be able to release a MediaNet (formerly MusicNet) store that has 312,000 albums (3,000,000+ tracks) that you can access as a local library.  Browsing it is like browsing your own library.  It was tricky to get it to be fast enough.  A subscription will be about $12/mo.  We have it working and it's great!

With the coming demise of Yahoo! Music and the thought of going back to Rhapsody (OK, it's more the fact that Real is now running it that's turning me off) this sounds really interesting.  Is this going to be a service within MC, or another custom version of MC?  Can I add custom tags to MediaNet store songs?

-John

[glynor]

For me.... Renting/subscription music == fail.

But, you know, some people might like it.  I'd really love to see the same thing tied to Amazon's MP3 store (or some MP3 store with a similar selection).  Where it looks and works just like your regular library (tied to a separate tree item, of course), where you can "preview" any song simply by double clicking it, and the buy it just as simply.

[skeeterfood]

For me.... Renting/subscription music == fail.

But just think if you could set up smartlists to play random music from a 3,000,000+ song library.

It works for me, because there are some artists/albums I like to listen to a lot (most of which I have purchased on CD), but other than those I enjoy searching for new music (as in new to me, not necessarily new releases).  The rental scheme lets me play my favorites and sample as much new music as I like for less than a CD's cost a month (way less with Yahoo's 2 year $80 Mastercard promo).  I'll admit it's a pain using Yahoo's pitiful software to search for and download those tracks so I can play them in MC and that tracks/albums/artists disappearing out of the library on the studio's whim sucks, but it's still worth what I paid.

And gone is the worry of backing up your music library except for your MC library containing all your custom tags and ratings and the ripped tracks that your chosen provider doesn't have, since you can just stream/download them again if your hard drive dies. All for less than the price of a single CD per month! (in my best infomercial voice )

-John

[hit_ny]

Exactly!

The subscription+usable interface idea has taken far too long to come out.

If the selection offered is good, and good will vary depending on who is answering then i think this will be a very viable way to discover new music. No need to deal with 30sec samples. If enough ppl subscribe then sharing playlists becomes feasible.

[JimH]

Interesting! Forgive me for being ignorant, but does that mean that I can keep music from MediaNet, or is it only available as long as I'm connected to the Internet and still pays for the service?

You can play any music in the library as much as you want as long as you pay.  The party's over if you stop paying.

[JimH]

For me.... Renting/subscription music == fail.

But, you know, some people might like it.  I'd really love to see the same thing tied to Amazon's MP3 store (or some MP3 store with a similar selection). 

We expect to add links to both MusicGiants (WMA lossless) and an MP3 store for purchasing tracks you are playing.

[skeeterfood]

I like hearing the MediaNet CEO proclaiming the end is near for DRM...

Excerpted from http://fmqb.com/article.asp?id=613159:

McGlade writes that the end of DRM is "all good news for the end user who is King in Digital Media 2.0. Users will now be connected to a virtually unlimited combination of services, offers, devices and content. The services will spread the gamut; a feature of media players, social networks, recommendation engines, online affinity groups, retailers or brand marketers. Media can be consumed in download purchases, conditional downloads (rentals), on demand or linear streaming (online radio and TV). Devices will include portable media players, mobile handsets, automobile consoles, streaming servers or PCs. And content will be premium music and video from labels and studios, proprietary content, or user generated content."

But, I don't see how conditional downloads (rentals) work without it?

-John

[JimH]

I like hearing the MediaNet CEO proclaiming the end is near for DRM...

Excerpted from http://fmqb.com/article.asp?id=613159:
But, I don't see how conditional downloads (rentals) work without it?

It's split:
Subscriptions with DRM (includes portable device support)
Downloads without DRM.

[JimH]

Here's a screenshot:
http://pix01.com/4Q@qsD31

[JimH]

Is this going to be a service within MC,

Yes.

or another custom version of MC? 

An Esmas Player for the U.S. and probably several others (at least).

Can I add custom tags to MediaNet store songs?

Maybe.  Stay tuned.

[cncb]

This sounds very cool.  I am picturing having and maybe sharing Smartlists that behave like Stations or Channels in other online music services but potentially better?

[jgreen]

I think I'll give this a try.  I did Naptser rental for a while and I liked it--apart from the fact that the service was not ready for prime time.  I had to do DRM resets fairly often and finally just gave up.

Before that I had XM sat and loved the available variety but just didn't like the passive nature of radio.  Also the DJ's braying like donkeys.

Really I've always been searching for a way to play the radio on a certain genre, then throw specific tracks in, then continue with the quasi-random radio play.  I think if any sort of organization could get this type of feature going, they'd really lap the field!

[marko]

It's split:
Subscriptions with DRM (includes portable device support)
Downloads without DRM.

Available to users outside the US, such as the UK perhaps?

[darichman]

Australia?

[JimH]

Sorry, but I can't provide any info on geographic coverage yet, other than the U.S.

I know that sounds lame, but the licensing is difficult  The major record labels demand big up-front payment in each geographic area.

[Mastiff]

Anybody can get a C/O address and a proxy in the US...

[)p(]

For me.... Renting/subscription music == fail.

I also disagree. I love the idea of a fast and easy search and browsable online music service...shame that I live in the Netherlands. We have some subscription streaming services here but they all use very clunky and slow web interfaces which defeats the purpose of having realtime access to a very big music library.

peter

[hit_ny]

Any way to see medianet's catalog ?

[AoXoMoXoA]

Any way to see medianet's catalog ?

I'd be interested in having a look-see.

While I have not been a big fan of subscriptions, I am coming to realize that there is merit to this.

Why collect and maintain tons of music that you rarely play if you have the option to play it at will for a small monthly fee? When you consider the cost of drives, the work to maintain backups, etc, this makes sense (up to a certain price point). And on top of it, you do not have the worry of losing your data. I can see where one could use something like this (IF the selecion, price, and mechanics of how it works suit you) and only buy the CDs that are absolute 'must-haves'.

[JimH]

Any way to see medianet's catalog ?

You could download the current Performer Digital player (based on our 11.1 player) here:
www.performerdigital.com

I believe you can get 30 second samples even if you don't subscribe to it.  The player is a little slow to load the first time.  It uses dot net.  It also uses a traditional web page approach, but search is pretty good.

The catalog is the same.  The same is true for many of the players on our partners page:
http://www.jrmediacenter.com/partnerplayers.html
All of the telcos and cablecos use the same back end.

In a couple of weeks, we may have a better way.

[marko]

I patiently await the day that MC includes a service that I can actually use.
It's rather frustrating, and that's putting it mildly.

In the meantime, I trust that I will be able to completely, and I mean completely, turn off and hide this 'feature' that is (to me) utterly useless.

[prod]

But just think if you could set up smartlists to play random music from a 3,000,000+ song library.

Just turn on your radio... 

Seriously though, sounds interesting. Pity it'll most likely be US-only for god knows how long.

[raldo]

I think it's excellent that JRiver is on the leading edge in this technology. It's good that the music business and the artists are trying out new tech as opposed to restricting the old.

However, I am using MC with a relatively large local library of music, photos, and videos. I hope JRiver will (still?) focus on the issues raised with this kind of use ...

[JimH]

Just turn on your radio.

A radio won't let you select what you want to play.  A subscription service lets you play whatever they have in whatever order you want.

[mojave]

Will the tracks be lossless and be streamed according to our Library Server Conversion settings?

While typing this I am on vacation in SW Minnesota. I am streaming my library from work to my laptop and listening to some music while browing the internet.

[JimH]

Will the tracks be lossless and be streamed according to our Library Server Conversion settings?

Lossless, no.  WMA 128Kbps for streaming.  Download purchase at MP3 320Kpbs for now.

You won't be able to serve a subscription to another client, but you can use 3 different PC's.

[glynor]

I also disagree. I love the idea of a fast and easy search and browsable online music service...shame that I live in the Netherlands. We have some subscription streaming services here but they all use very clunky and slow web interfaces which defeats the purpose of having realtime access to a very big music library.

My issue is that I don't have that much disposable income to spend on subscription services.  If I'm going to pay $144 per year on something, and then I decide to cancel it (or the service goes belly-up) I want to have something to show for it.  Like I said... Not true for everyone, but true for me.  At the rate I accumulate new music, $12 a month for a 300,000 (or 3,000,000) song library just isn't worth it.  That's WAY, WAY more than I'd give to NPR, and I listen to them every day.  By the time you sign up for all of these disparate services (satellite radio, cell phone data plans, highspeed Internet access, cable TV, public radio dues, music library subscription, movie library subscription, netflix, etc, etc, etc) you end up not having enough to pay your huge home heating oil bill...

Plus, for me DRM is a complete non-starter.  I need to be able to move the content to any device I want (including those not yet invented), and use it when I have no network access (common for those of us up in the boondocks), as much as I want.

No thanks.  I'll buy an album here or there when I have some extra money.  Eventually, I'll have a 300,000 track library, and no one will be able to take it away even if I lose my job or have to cut back.  But signing up for something when there's no guarantee (for me) that next month I'll still be able to listen to it?  That's a no-go.

PS. Very excited to hear there will be high quality downloadable MP3 offerings... Any word on pricing?  I'm assuming that we couldn't get Amazon to cooperate on incorporating similar features for their store...

[JimH]

It's 300,000 albums, not 300,000 tracks.

How much do you spend on your cell phone every year?  What does it cost per conversation?  What do you have to show for it when you lose your phone?

Just trying to get you worked up.   

[glynor]

How much do you spend on your cell phone every year?  What does it cost per conversation?  What do you have to show for it when you lose your phone?

Great example!

I don't actually have a cell phone.  My wife does, but we share it (and it is hers primarily).  I spend $29.95 per month on it (plus taxes and fees, of course).  However, that is the price of the service, not the phone.  If I cancel the service, I still have the phone (and can even still use it to call 911).

Cell phones are a particularly good example... The type of phone I own is NOT locked to my provider, I made sure before I bought it.  The common practice of locking cell phones to certain providers is fairly likely to be found illegal in the near future, in case you didn't hear about that lawsuit in California that recently went through the Supreme Court (that article is a bit old, it was later appealed to the US Supreme Court and they sided with the CA Supreme Court and allowed the case to proceed, and even stated that the "plaintiffs are likely to prevail")...  Even if not, there are widely available hacks for most phones to unlock them (though I'd hesitate to buy any phone locked to a provider anyway on general principle, just like I feel about DRM).

If I lose my phone, I have nothing to show for it, of course... But the same goes with traditional CDs and DVDs and MP3 downloads.  That's why I have multiple backups in multiple offsite locations.  Loss isn't quite the same as being unable to continue service.  With the phone, if I cancel my service (because I lost my job for example) and then 8 months later go to sign up for new service, I can do so without having to buy a new phone or sign up for a draconian 2-year lock-in period.  I can just use my existing phone with my existing address book data intact.  With a music "rental" service, if I have to cancel my service, I lose effectively everything.

Plus... The cost per conversation is a flawed metric for cell phones.  We have a cell phone primarily for safety purposes.... Car breakdowns and whatnot.  How much is piece of mind for your life worth per month?  How about your wifes?

A better example might be a TiVO.  I also won't pay a monthly fee for a DVR.  That's why I use a software-based DVR with no monthly fee.

Oh, and...

Just trying to get you worked up.   

Right back at ya!    

[JimH]

Plus... The cost per conversation is a flawed metric for cell phones.  We have a cell phone primarily for safety purposes.... Car breakdowns and whatnot.  How much is piece of mind for your life worth per month?  How about your wifes?

My wife costs a little more than $29.95/month, but then ... you're right.  She's worth it.

But we were talking about cigarettes, weren't we?

[glynor]

My wife costs a little more than $29.95/month

Speak on, brother!

[BullishDad]

As a current Yahoo subscriber, I'd be interested when my sub runs out in a few months.  How many portable devices allowed?

I must say that I was leaning against renewing after Yahoo transitions to Rhapsody.  My daughter and I share the service.  She uses it more than me, but my biggest gripe has been the DRM and Yahoo software.  I've had problems with the tracks being unplayable because the license wasn't updated, but eventually got it to work.  Also, when my daughter downloads a track, it winds up on my machine too the next time I use the service.

Given our familiarity with MC, it makes the idea more attractive.  How does the service handle the transfer to a portable device?  Is a file ever saved on my PC if not purchased?

Good luck with this venture, Jim.  I hope it works out for JRiver.  I do think that it is still an uphill battle because of the resistance to "rented" music.  The non-DRM'd paid for track helps, but ultimately it's the protected subscription files that users have rebelled against and the reason why subscription services have been less than successful.  I.E.-Yahoo and Napster and probably others.

[hit_ny]

Good luck with this venture, Jim.  I hope it works out for JRiver.  I do think that it is still an uphill battle because of the resistance to "rented" music.  The non-DRM'd paid for track helps, but ultimately it's the protected subscription files that users have rebelled against and the reason why subscription services have been less than successful.  I.E.-Yahoo and Napster and probably others.

Was under the impression that until recently even the paid for files were DRM'd, like iTunes, which is why Job's memo against it came out about a year back. That even though you had paid for your files they might become unplayable in the future.

With subscriptions the lack of choice was the problem.

Does this offering offer a wide enough selection to address this ?

I feel eventually this will become a common practice but think it will still lead to walled gardens like we have with instant messaging. If you are with service A then you can't use Service B without paying for yet another subscription and so on. If there was some way to trade credits between the various services so that your subscription worked seamlessly with all, then it becomes even more attractive.

The motivation for this is simple, there is an astounding amount of music produced every yr, read figures somewhere in the region of 30k non-compilation albums, and that's only for the US. If you factor in europe, japan & the rest it would not be surprising for that figure to be 3 times higher if not more. What about all that has come out before

Do the services as offered presently reflect this overwhelming choice ?

Would they be interested in doing so or fear it would draw attention from their own artists they are promoting. The big 4 are only interested in what they have as they have traditionally always had a monopoly over the media owing to the consolidations that took place in the last 20 years. It would have to be upto the indie labels to colloborate into a 'whole' big enough to make this work.

[e-head]

Last.fm is an awesome way to discover new music, albeit there is no way to do it on the go. They have a totally free streaming service. Just type in a "tag" or an artist you like and you get a custom stream of music related to that tag or artist.

[runemail]

Last.fm radio is coming soon to Windows mobile:

http://www.last.fm/group/Pocket+Scrobbler

And I believe its going to be all over the 3g iPhones as well.

Paying $12/mo for a WMA 128Kbps stream with drm ? (2005 called, they want their failed business plans back..)

To me this seems too little to late. But would be more useful if user generated tags and lists could be shared/stored, and stuff like Last.fm recommendations etc. could pick similar music for you. That would at least add some value to the service.

[MrHaugen]

Will this be integrated in MC12? I would love to use this as a way to find new music.
Is it DRM free? Someone says yes, other things point me in the other direction.

[JimH]

It will probably be in MC13.

The subscription services all have DRM protection (for obvious reasons).  We will do our best to provide DRM-free download purchases.

In general, the trend (among record labels) is to use DRM only for subscriptions.  Most of the download purchases from new services are MP3 320Kbps or similar.  We expect to also provide these as lossless when possible, but they will cost a little more.

[MrHaugen]

Yea. I thought as much.

I'm crossing my fingers for downloadable FLAC. Seems like the price for an album is more than affordable (each song for 0,99 Norwegian Kroner = around 20 cents).
Can it be right?!? Something tells me it's listed in dollars.

If the price is correct though, I would be more than willing to pay twice for FLAC. If the DRM removed for downloadable albums, I'd consider purchasing 320Kbps MP3 as well..

[JimH]

Here's a screenshot of build 22.

[CadErik]

We expect to add links to both MusicGiants (WMA lossless) and an MP3 store for purchasing tracks you are playing.

So if I understand correctly, your subscription service will be only based on streaming?
I current have napster and you download 192kpbs tracks on the subscription service which I find quite good. Napster is unfortunately not very good with the metadata...

[MerlinWerks]

Best of luck with the new venture! If anyone can pull it off successfully it will be the JRiver team At this point though, I'm still holding out for a lossless/DRM-free product before music downloads can capture a larger share of my wallet. But I'll certainly keep an eye on your progress and what the final product evolves into. One never knows, do one?
Until then I'm reasonably certain there are at least a few cd's out there that I haven't heard yet 

[JimH]

So if I understand correctly, your subscription service will be only based on streaming?

It's a streaming service, with options for:

1.  "Download" of the subscription tracks (meaning that you then can play them from your local drive, but if you stop your subscription, they stop playing.
2.  Transfer to MTP/PlaysforSure portable device.  (works as long as your subscription works)
3.  "Purchase" of WM DRM track (works even after your subscription has ended).

We're adding:
4.  Purchase of MP3 (when available)
5.  Purchase of MusicGiants lossless tracks (WMA, some are DRM protected, some are not)
6.  Purchase of a CD (from Amazon or [to-be-determined])
7.  Purchase of T-Shirt (link to cafepress.com)

We may add:
8.  Purchase of track from CD Baby.

Pricing similar to Napster's.

Some of the above will only work in the U.S. at first.

[glynor]

Not to be a concern troll but... One minor concern I have with the "purchase" options you just described, Jim is this...

We're adding:
4.  Purchase of MP3 (when available)
5.  Purchase of MusicGiants lossless tracks (WMA, some are DRM protected, some are not)

We may add:
8.  Purchase of track from CD Baby.

I'm afraid that all these options add too much complexity.  That is, at heart, the beauty of the Amazon MP3 Store (and the iTunes store to a lesser degree, though differently focused).

Right there, you're listing four different possibilities for playability that the user is going to have to investigate and consider before buying.  For a $0.99 "spur of the moment" purchase, that is way too much thinking and the user might just as often decide to forget it.

The beauty of the Amazon MP3 Store is that I know without thinking that every single track listed is in the same exact format and has the same exact usability.  They'll all work on my iPod, they'll all work on my Sansa, and they'll all work with MC.  The iTunes Store doesn't have quite the same uniformity, but every single track is guaranteed to work with iTunes and with your iPod, so you don't need to care.  Plus, they have very rigid price uniformity.

With this store... Even if they're all very clearly marked, most consumers don't know what the differences are at all.  My mom doesn't care about Lossless vs. Lossy vs. DRM vs. DRM-free, and more importantly doesn't care to learn.  She just wants to buy a song and have it work on her iPod and on her computer without thinking about it.  If she has to think about it, for a $0.99 "splurge" purchase, then you've already lost the sale.

Right now, your customers are going to have to choose between four differing options (not even counting the subscription model), and it sounds like availability is going to vary widely (some will only be available one way, some another, etc, etc).  Fine for savvy consumers, but that is seriously limiting your customer base.  The first time someone accidentally buys a Lossless WM DRM track and discovers that it won't work on their iPod (or heck, their Zune), they're going to be ticked off and probably never buy another track again.

[glynor]

Now, I should say... All this choice would be superb if there was also accompanying uniformity.  If every single track was available in a "lowest common denominator" format (which really has to be MP3 at this point to guarantee iPod portability), and then a smattering were also available in other higher-quality formats (lossless with or without DRM) then that would be fine.

Then, again, you wouldn't have to care about compatibility or formats or whatever, because you could just always buy the MP3 format.  If you want to care, and want to get the Lossless (when available) then it'd be there for you, which would add value over the Amazon store.

The difference is subtle, but essential.  It is "allowing customers to choose" vs. "forcing customers to choose".

[JimH]

The difference is subtle, but essential.  It is "allowing customers to choose" vs. "forcing customers to choose".

Hey glynor.  It's not a perfect world (yet).  We're just trying to hide as much of the ugliness as possible for you, and to give you as many options as the current state of affairs will allow.

We're seeing steady progress toward Nirvhana now.  Witness the press release we just laid on the world this morning.

[JimH]

The beauty of the Amazon MP3 Store is ...

I like it, too.  We link to it.  But it doesn't have everything, and sampling with the Amazon store is crude and tedious compared to using a subscription service.

We're going to give you fallback options:
If the file is available, you buy lossless (without DRM).
If not, you buy MP3.
If no MP3, you buy a CD and rip.

Yours truly,
Un-concerned

[glynor]

Hey glynor.  It's not a perfect world (yet).  We're just trying to hide as much of the ugliness as possible for you, and to give you as many options as the current state of affairs will allow.

Understood.  I realize that it is very hard to achieve, but for an online music store to be really successful I think this is what is required.  I should say though, it is hard but not impossible. Amazon did achieve this goal (of course, they have substantial clout).  You're also absolutely right... They don't have everything (though the selection is huge, and includes pretty much all current releases).  That's my point.  It may be worth considering sacrificing selection a slight bit in order to achieve uniformity (again, exclusively regarding the purchase-to-own options).

I also realize that, to a great degree, I'm preaching to the choir.  None of this is your decision (you're just building the UI).  Still, if I was in meetings with the people who do make those decisions, that'd be my story.

Still an interesting discussion over why some services succeed and why some fail.

One question though...

We're going to give you fallback options:
If the file is available, you buy lossless.
If not, you buy MP3.
If no MP3, you buy a CD and rip.

Wouldn't defaulting to MP3 be a better choice?  Again, the first time someone buys one of those Lossless DRM tracks and it won't play on their iPod, they're going to be ticked.  Unless you mean that DRM will be on a separate "track" and would fall underneath MP3:

If the file is available lossless and DRM-free, you buy lossless.
If not, you buy MP3.
If not, you buy lossless DRM or buy CD.
If not, you buy lossy WM DRM or buy CD.
If none of the above, you buy a CD and rip.

[JimH]

None of this is your decision (you're just building the UI).  Still, if I was in meetings with the people who do make those decisions, that'd be my story.

Most of the people who actually provide the infrastructure that delivers digital content are as annoyed as you are with the business requirements aspects.  But the content owners decide, and they don't always make the right decisions.  They are moving though.

Wouldn't defaulting to MP3 be a better choice?  Again, the first time someone buys one of those Lossless DRM tracks and it won't play on their iPod, they're going to be ticked. 

I mean lossless without DRM.  I'll change that above.

I personally don't want to sell any DRM tracks, but our partners will make those decisions on their players.  There are too many examples of services that shut down and left users with purchased downloads that won't play.