INTERACT FORUM

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: MC15 - Broad server view in mind  (Read 8626 times)

benn600

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3849
  • Living: Santa Monica CA Hometown: Cedar Rapids IA
MC15 - Broad server view in mind
« on: January 17, 2010, 07:55:46 pm »

Seeing that MC13 is sitting at version 172 at the moment, I would venture to say that MC15 is not too far out with initial thoughts possibly arising.  The single most critical feature that I am awaiting is tighter server configuration integration.  In a perfect world, I would like to see the MC database and configuration shared among users with enforcement controls that restrict user abilities if so chosen by the server.  View schemes, theater view configuration, etc. should all be shared and used everywhere.  Consider this scenario:

A HTPC and two users.  The HTPC needs outstanding, well thought out view schemes and theater view setup to be as efficient and powerful as possible.  Now picture having to replicate those on the two user databases.  It gets to be a real pain--enough so that one just lives with MC's state to keep things consistent.  In addition, all databases really should have identical media files.  Running auto import is not a great solution because it, again, requires manual setup and configuration on the machine.

I am still really holding out for a library server type setup where one connects to the library server and all of the configuration and abilities are setup and enforced upon the user.

If what I am trying to ask for here is actually possible, please let me know.  I just don't think it is as of yet.
Logged

MrHaugen

  • Regular Member
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3774
Re: MC15 - Broad server view in mind
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2010, 05:08:02 am »

You're dead on Benn. This is highly needed. Not only a central server with all media and settings for clients, but also a server which can be used by different users or groups so you can differentiate things like view schemes and data like playing now, last played etc.

The library could be the same for all users or groups, but the access to the different media types could vary depending on which user logs in. Data that are heavily user or group dependent like number plays and last played etc, could be stored in the library for each player/group.

The way it is today, the library server is very much a server for personal use only, and the client setup is way to time consuming.
Logged
- I may not always believe what I'm saying

mark_h

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1851
Re: MC15 - Broad server view in mind
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2010, 06:54:50 am »

+1
Logged

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 71363
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: MC15 - Broad server view in mind
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2010, 07:19:31 am »

The way it is today, the library server is very much a server for personal use only, and the client setup is way to time consuming.
We're not going to re-write our servers from the ground up.

If you have a problem with Library Server, please post details or bump an old thread.  I don't see one.

For most clients, try using DLNA.  Get the most recent build.
Logged

MrHaugen

  • Regular Member
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3774
Re: MC15 - Broad server view in mind
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2010, 07:41:10 am »

We're not going to re-write our servers from the ground up.

If you have a problem with Library Server, please post details or bump an old thread.  I don't see one.

For most clients, try using DLNA.  Get the most recent build.

There's a couple of threads on the beta board with suggestions... I could start another in MC14 forum, but don't see the point in making yet another one of them. I understand that you don't want to build the LS from the ground up, but fixing todays flaws and adding a few highly wanted features would solve much.

Not really sure how DLNA works really. I know that many TV's and such is compliant today, bot not sure how the MC clients act in this mode. Is it supposed to take over the direct Client - Library server experience that we know today or what?
Logged
- I may not always believe what I'm saying

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 71363
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: MC15 - Broad server view in mind
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2010, 07:58:15 am »

Not really sure how DLNA works really. I know that many TV's and such is compliant today, bot not sure how the MC clients act in this mode. Is it supposed to take over the direct Client - Library server experience that we know today or what?
Yes.  Start here:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=55670.0
Logged

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 71363
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: MC15 - Broad server view in mind
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2010, 11:02:45 am »

Logged

benn600

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3849
  • Living: Santa Monica CA Hometown: Cedar Rapids IA
Re: MC15 - Broad server view in mind
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2010, 01:44:13 pm »

Constructing the system I envision would be like building this complete, all-encompassing media system that enforces rules and regulations while giving people ultimate control over all their media and configurations.  I don't think there is a single program that comes close to solving this issue.  iTunes, iPhoto, etc. are all totally useless in this area as well.  We use a server to store media but the database has yet to become fully server-centric.

I think the only way to get what I want is to look at the tens-of-thousands of dollar systems that I have heard of which are available.  MC is focused on individual users with some "server-esque" capabilities.  Nothing yet screams full server-client architecture with all the benefits that go along with it.  The possibilities are endless.  It could be packaged separately with a per-user license because there would certainly be a need for many users.  This system I envision has the suggestion of having many users--or systems that utilize it.  Sure, it would work for two setups (very well of course) but it would SHINE with a handful of systems all linked up.

The client "version" would be RUTHLESS in forcing that MC is running, mouse hidden, etc.  If anything goes wrong (files can't be accessed--server connection lost) nice messages would show up and ask the user how to proceed.  MC could self-restart the computer as a diagnostic measure.

This would help make it ultra easy for newbies...assuming someone can run the server end of it.
Logged

newsposter

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 785
Re: MC15 - Broad server view in mind
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2010, 02:52:26 pm »

y'all could start by researching the capabilities of Oracle Media Server.
Logged

benn600

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3849
  • Living: Santa Monica CA Hometown: Cedar Rapids IA
Re: MC15 - Broad server view in mind
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2010, 06:25:56 pm »

Clients could be sent the latest version of MC through the network server connection so the installer only has to be downloaded once.  Then, the server setup would control how new versions are deployed.  In my case, I would want silent background updating immediately as new versions are released.  So, within a day or two all clients should get the latest version through this new architecture.  Users could give other options for updating:

1. Never update automatically
2. Update server automatically but ask each client (nice friendly UI, would you like to update?)
3. Update server automatically and force client updates when idle
4. Update server automatically and force client updates immediately
Logged

Nicholas T

  • Junior Woodchuck
  • **
  • Posts: 77
Re: MC15 - Broad server view in mind
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2010, 06:37:45 pm »

I second the vote for managing users/groups.  I don't want my kids or other visitors to have access to certain songs/movies.  I would like them to have their own login so I could control what they can see/play. 

I don't believe this is possible yet?

Nicholas

Logged
LGV40, Samsung Tab S7+ & Sony WH1000XM4 = some peace in the chaos.

benn600

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3849
  • Living: Santa Monica CA Hometown: Cedar Rapids IA
Re: MC15 - Broad server view in mind
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2010, 09:11:42 pm »

Users and groups is an entirely different realm but I've wanted that as well.  An integrated way to show certain content would be good.  The problem is that it could easily get way too complicated.  I am thinking something as simple as a general default user plus the ability to switch users to add certain excluded content.

To me, this is incredibly important.  However, the other foundation would give more merit to user controls.  Oh, and content could be added to MC but not show up until an action is taken or a date passes.  I always think back to gifts of CDs or DVDs and wish I could have them pre-ripped before opening and then have them show up...they could be noticed if I just added them.

The moment this big time server-client architecture is considered, MC will be another order of magnitude above all other media players for my, and (apparently) many other MC users.  It becomes way too much of a time consuming project to keep multiple media systems up to date.  Ripping content takes too much time on its own, let alone all the procedures I have to go through that I often just skip due to lack of time...which leads to imperfections that are the worst.
Logged

benn600

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3849
  • Living: Santa Monica CA Hometown: Cedar Rapids IA
Re: MC15 - Broad server view in mind
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2010, 09:22:15 pm »

We're not going to re-write our servers from the ground up.

If you have a problem with Library Server, please post details or bump an old thread.  I don't see one.

For most clients, try using DLNA.  Get the most recent build.

Looking at how Media Center handles server capabilities right now, I would say that they compare somewhat to how iTunes works.  Each client is a separate unit with their own setup, configuration, policies.  The goal with a tightly integrated, comprehensive server architecture would be to link the database up more efficiently with clients and the server.  Forgive me for not being completely aware of Library Server as it is (I don't always catch new features) but it is my understanding that new content does not get pushed to clients.

Another big step in my vision is to revise theater view to have some sort of dedicated theater view mode.  This would be more forceful in requiring that MC is running.  The most important issue here is to recover from connection issues within theater view.  So, if the system cannot connect to library server, theater view interfaces should be presented with diagnostic steps.
Logged

MrHaugen

  • Regular Member
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3774
Re: MC15 - Broad server view in mind
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2010, 05:14:43 am »

Users and groups is an entirely different realm but I've wanted that as well.  An integrated way to show certain content would be good.  The problem is that it could easily get way too complicated.  I am thinking something as simple as a general default user plus the ability to switch users to add certain excluded content.

At least in theory, I don't believe it would be that hard to include a user or group option to MC. My first thought is to only go for groups or users. Both might be to overdo it. Normally you'll have 1-4 scenarios of what media you want to display or be able to write to, so there's not a need for an elaborate

Music: Limited read access to Music only (kitchen or bathroom HTPC for instance). No write access and only Music files shown
Family/Friends: Full access to media, but with write disabled (shared library with family or room mates). Prevent Number plays update etc.
Power User: Main HTPC with a primary user. All access and write access

The problem with updated Playing now, Last played etc, would be best to solve by implementing a small Library part with independent user data, so each user have it's own data for specific tags.

The easiest way of using this access control might be to set the read and write access on media files, and to hide the playlists, view schemes if there is no files present. If this is controlled on each file you'll have to have a way of setting the defaults for each category (music, images, video and data), so you don't have to do a manual job for every import.

When you do want to micro manage the access rights, mark files, de-select the groups for the individual files you don't want other users to see.

I don't see a big problem with this, but there might be some lurking around.
Logged
- I may not always believe what I'm saying

JustinChase

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3273
  • Getting older every day
Re: MC15 - Broad server view in mind
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2010, 11:19:29 am »

We're not going to re-write our servers from the ground up.

Would that really be necessary; a total rebuild?  It seems Library server is already fairly capable, but is just missing more control and integration.

For most clients, try using DLNA.  Get the most recent build.

Will this allow a client to make changes to the library and underlying data, to delete items, to update tags?

If not, I'm not sure it's the solution long sought by many users, myself included.
Logged
pretend this is something funny

benn600

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3849
  • Living: Santa Monica CA Hometown: Cedar Rapids IA
Re: MC15 - Broad server view in mind
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2010, 03:03:02 pm »

Does DLNA in any way allow MC to be the client?  I thought this was for non-MC products.

I do like the distinction about whether to update Number Plays, etc.  All this data should be synchronized on the fly and immediately with clients-- Last played, number plays, etc.  This data should also be unique to a user account: Me, someone else, or default account.  This way, users could really keep the information carefully configured to their own uses.  I would really like it if Last Played was actually accurate.  At the moment, it means almost nothing anywhere because the data is not kept in sync everywhere.
Logged

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 71363
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: MC15 - Broad server view in mind
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2010, 03:08:14 pm »

Does DLNA in any way allow MC to be the client?  I thought this was for non-MC products.
Our wiki explains what DLNA does.
Logged

flac.rules

  • Regular Member
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1260
Re: MC15 - Broad server view in mind
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2010, 12:05:22 am »

Seeing that MC13 is sitting at version 172 at the moment, I would venture to say that MC15 is not too far out with initial thoughts possibly arising.  The single most critical feature that I am awaiting is tighter server configuration integration.  In a perfect world, I would like to see the MC database and configuration shared among users with enforcement controls that restrict user abilities if so chosen by the server.  View schemes, theater view configuration, etc. should all be shared and used everywhere.  Consider this scenario:

A HTPC and two users.  The HTPC needs outstanding, well thought out view schemes and theater view setup to be as efficient and powerful as possible.  Now picture having to replicate those on the two user databases.  It gets to be a real pain--enough so that one just lives with MC's state to keep things consistent.  In addition, all databases really should have identical media files.  Running auto import is not a great solution because it, again, requires manual setup and configuration on the machine.

I am still really holding out for a library server type setup where one connects to the library server and all of the configuration and abilities are setup and enforced upon the user.

If what I am trying to ask for here is actually possible, please let me know.  I just don't think it is as of yet.


The opportunity for tighter server integration would be nice, but  i am weary about letting the server control everything, with no way to do a client override. And I am not sure why all databases should have identical files? My girlfriend has no need for all my music, and have a separate database with the music that interests her.
Logged

gvanbrunt

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1232
  • MC Nerd
Re: MC15 - Broad server view in mind
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2010, 02:41:39 pm »

There isn't a whole lot of publicly available documentation on DLNA that I could find. Getting more details seems to require paying $500 to be a member of the organization that oversees the standard. From what is available, it doesn't appear that security concerns other than DRM are addressed. So you can't have log ons and only see a specific subset of info from what I can see. I could be wrong here, perhaps someone from JR could clarify that?

If it is possible, I have long wanted to secure my content by user. I have files etc that I don't want my 7 year old to have access too for example. There is very narrow support and I can shut off or turn on "protected content" via a password from the standard view. For this to be useful though it would need to be more granular. Also it would need to reengage automatically so that if "left on" it doesn't leave the content open. And certainly a users access would need to be able to be "turned on/off" via Theatre View.

As a programmer, I know this is a very tall order for JR to achieve especially since they use a proprietary database. They have gone that route to be able to have the speed that users with large collections require. I certainly can't argue there, as my col letions is darn near instantly accessable. It may not even be possible to achieve the speed it currently has if this kind of thing is added.
Logged

HTPC4ME

  • Regular Member
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 2759
  • LIFE IS A RADIO... CRANK IT UP TO 11!
Re: MC15 - Broad server view in mind
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2010, 03:50:19 pm »

think ive mentioned the kid factor as well. glad its Finally being talked about!

 
Quote
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=55597.0
Logged

benn600

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3849
  • Living: Santa Monica CA Hometown: Cedar Rapids IA
Re: MC15 - Broad server view in mind
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2010, 04:23:39 pm »

I look at the whole house media concept differently.  Any content anyone has should be available to everyone.  People can then use view schemes, playlists, and searching to select only content they want.  Of course content that is allowed into MC has to be of a certain quality.  Anything less than full DVD rips or FLAC CDs is not eligible for our key MC library.
Logged

Nicholas T

  • Junior Woodchuck
  • **
  • Posts: 77
Re: MC15 - Broad server view in mind
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2010, 07:22:07 pm »

I look at the whole house media concept differently.  Any content anyone has should be available to everyone.  People can then use view schemes, playlists, and searching to select only content they want.  Of course content that is allowed into MC has to be of a certain quality.  Anything less than full DVD rips or FLAC CDs is not eligible for our key MC library.

1.  Your needs sound different to others.  For me, I need to RESTRICT access to media because I have young children and I might not necessarily want visitors having access to all my content either.  The lack of this feature means I can't easily make my library of movies/music easily available.  I'm deliberating building my first HTPC and I'm wondering if it's even viable because of this. 
2.  "Any less than full DVD rips...."   - Come on...everybody is different and for the majority of people (correct me if I'm wrong) MP3 and AVI/MKV is just fine and the norm if your buying online.  Bit of audiophile snobbery ay?
Logged
LGV40, Samsung Tab S7+ & Sony WH1000XM4 = some peace in the chaos.

gvanbrunt

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1232
  • MC Nerd
Re: MC15 - Broad server view in mind
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2010, 05:29:06 pm »

I don't think Ben was trying to be snobbish, just give his opinion on what works for him. He does bring up a really good point as well. Security should also be about what you can put into the library. IE only certain quality etc.

As for protecting content, you can use Access Control to protect content. It's an all or nothing deal, but does do the job of protecting content if needed.
Logged

benn600

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3849
  • Living: Santa Monica CA Hometown: Cedar Rapids IA
Re: MC15 - Broad server view in mind
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2010, 12:41:10 am »

The beauty of MC is that it supports everyone from whatever media path they take.  I've been all over the media space and found a space that works for me.  I totally think access controls are CRITICAL.  But the problem is that I could probably make a list of a two dozen feature requests.  If we keep debating which requests have merit, that means we keep bringing issues up again and again.  Any publicity is good publicity.  JRiver has added things that people seem to clearly not want in the past.  That's their prerogative and we have MC because of their choices along the way.

The problem with me hearing other feature requests is if I took them in for what they're worth, I'd go crazy with wanting so many things.  In many cases I try to tell myself I don't want a feature so I can focus on the few that seem the most beneficial.  What I'm asking for is, without a doubt, a total rewrite of some of the core features of MC--settings, server, client, database queries...especially if it was to be done RIGHT.  But, if this was in place, it would lay the foundation for a lot of other revolutionary features.

Besides, on the quality front...I won't go crazy with a mp3 discussion but who honestly feels that YouTube has high quality videos suitable for any average or above rig today?  I don't fill my library with those types of videos.  Those are better handled in the file system through rudimentary playback means...if you REALLY want to play this, open it manually.  I don't want visitors seeing a library plagued with gunk that no one really wants.

I'm still so thankful I discovered MC back during the summer of 2006.  It's such a great value...
Logged

Daydream

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 770
Re: MC15 - Broad server view in mind
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2010, 12:49:57 am »

The way Ben sees things above - he is not alone.

+1
Logged

MrHaugen

  • Regular Member
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3774
Re: MC15 - Broad server view in mind
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2010, 05:40:01 am »

Can't we just make a poll of the most wanted features of a good library server? That will at least show J River what the users need the most.
Logged
- I may not always believe what I'm saying

benn600

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3849
  • Living: Santa Monica CA Hometown: Cedar Rapids IA
Logged

MrHaugen

  • Regular Member
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3774
Re: MC15 - Broad server view in mind
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2010, 06:40:32 am »

Jim shut down the poll. Maybe we should sort out what important and bigger things that should possibly done with the library server before starting such polls? As I said in that poll, there would also be good if one can choose a few alternatives. Dependant on the number of possibilities available.

I'll start with what I think is most important for a really good Library Server.


- Fast playback/loading of all media (not sure if there is still some issues with video)
- Central settings hub / Settings stored in backup (all client settings, views and such are stored on the server, and forced on the clients if chosen)
- Access control for users or groups (choose what media each user/group should watch or update tags for)
- Automatic sync between server and clients
Logged
- I may not always believe what I'm saying

HTPC4ME

  • Regular Member
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 2759
  • LIFE IS A RADIO... CRANK IT UP TO 11!
Re: MC15 - Broad server view in mind
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2010, 09:26:21 am »

and mine



- Smooth playback of all media (not sure if there is still some issues with video)
- Central settings hub / Settings stored in backup (all client settings, views and such are stored on the server, and forced on the clients if chosen)
- Access control for users or groups (choose what media each user/group should watch or update tags for)
- Automatic sync between server and clients
Logged

gvanbrunt

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1232
  • MC Nerd
Re: MC15 - Broad server view in mind
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2010, 04:41:30 pm »

Here is my take on some of your points:

> Smooth playback of all media

This isn't likely something JR can do. They don't make all the components involved in the rendering (codecs, hardware, etc) so they don't have control over the process from end to end. Also all media is a pretty tall order, especially considering new types are added all the time.

> Central settings hub / Settings stored in backup (all client settings, views and such are stored on the server, and forced on the clients if chosen)

That's two different things. If you are going to do a poll they should be separate... unless you are a politician in which case it is perfectly acceptable. :)

> Automatic sync between server and clients

This is peer to peer not client server. If any of the data is on the client, or synced with the server (other than caching) it is not true client/server. Still this is for a poll of most wanted features, so it doesn't really matter.

I would like to see an entry for Theater View Plug-Ins. Would be able to add a lot of functionality to HTPC's that way...
Logged

gappie

  • Regular Member
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 4565
Re: MC15 - Broad server view in mind
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2010, 04:47:49 pm »

I would like to see an entry for Theater View Plug-Ins. Would be able to add a lot of functionality to HTPC's that way...
now that is something i would like, have two half finished already (the other half).. just not sure what it has to do with a broad server.

 :)
gab
Logged

benn600

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3849
  • Living: Santa Monica CA Hometown: Cedar Rapids IA
Re: MC15 - Broad server view in mind
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2010, 07:36:49 pm »

now that is something i would like, have two half finished already (the other half).. just not sure what it has to do with a broad server.

 :)
gab

Definitely a good idea.  But I'd like to see the plugins setup and configured either on the server or client with sync-back to the server and all other clients...oh and all configuration done within theater view.  I still have a tough time classifying products as "theater views" when most of the setup requires a keyboard and mouse.  If a menu system was developed, then the configuration choices could grow from there with little restraint.  Right now, it just isn't possible.
Logged

MrHaugen

  • Regular Member
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3774
Re: MC15 - Broad server view in mind
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2010, 02:36:08 am »

> Smooth playback of all media

This isn't likely something JR can do. They don't make all the components involved in the rendering (codecs, hardware, etc) so they don't have control over the process from end to end. Also all media is a pretty tall order, especially considering new types are added all the time.

Just bad choice of words actually. What I really meant was for media files to start playback fast, instead of the enormous delay we had. Especially on video files over a certain size. I've edited my text above.

As for the settings and library storage I agree. Just wanted to point out the importance of adding settings in the backup, even though this might be more of a client feature. It CAN be taken advantage of at the central server to though, so I'll let it stay for the time being :)
Logged
- I may not always believe what I'm saying
Pages: [1]   Go Up