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Author Topic: Does SSD drive improve MC searching?  (Read 3159 times)

WinoOutWest

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Does SSD drive improve MC searching?
« on: October 07, 2010, 11:24:34 am »

I understand boot performance and initial app loading is dramatically faster.
I have a large music collection (~2TB) and searches are already pretty fast on a normal drive so I am wondering if those of you with SSD drives noticed a significant improvement in searches when having the db on a SSD drive with the collection on a regular SATA drive?



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Matt

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Re: Does SSD drive improve MC searching?
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2010, 11:38:16 am »

An SSD will help load times of Media Center, improve list performance when thumbnails are used, and make conversion or anything else that uses files faster.

However, an SSD will not help database routines like search since they are memory and CPU bound.

If you're concerned about speed, make sure you have the latest build.  v15 got a lot faster recently:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=59638.0
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Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

WinoOutWest

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Re: Does SSD drive improve MC searching?
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2010, 11:49:40 am »

thanks Matt,

Not overly concerned about speed - Like I said int he post searches are pretty fast as is.  I'm a tweaker so always looking at the latest but never had a SSD - perhaps I am looking for more reasons to justify the purchase.
:)

The music PC comes on in the AM before anyone is up and starts playing music so I suspect I wouldn't really see the benefits and boot and load gains day to day.
Cheers!
Darren
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glynor

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Re: Does SSD drive improve MC searching?
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2010, 12:09:59 pm »

If you can stand it, I'd really recommend waiting until Q1 2011 for a SSD purchase.  Lots of new stuff upcoming in that space, including this: http://www.anandtech.com/show/3971/sandforce-announces-nextgen-ssd-controller-sf2000-capable-of-500mbs-and-60k-iops/1

Plus, the new 3rd Generation Intel drive controller and 25nm NAND is REALLY going to push prices down over the next 6 months or so.
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mojave

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Re: Does SSD drive improve MC searching?
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2010, 12:34:32 pm »

If you can stand it, I'd really recommend waiting . . .

I've been hearing that since I bought my first IBM computer in 1989.  ;D
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glynor

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Re: Does SSD drive improve MC searching?
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2010, 12:43:52 pm »

I know you were joking, but that's a false equivalency.  ;)

Yes, tech always progresses, and yes, you can always wait and get more for less money later.  However, there are certainly "good times" and "bad times" to buy certain individual pieces of technology, based on product cycles and release schedules.

Now is not a good time to buy SSD technology.  Many of the drives are actually on sale right now for much lower prices than they have been over the past 12 months or so, but that is only because the stores and manufacturers are trying to clear out inventory before the incoming onslaught of new drives coming in November, December, and January decimates the pricing for the remaining old inventory.  The current generation of drives and controllers are, right now, all based on controllers released in Q4 2009 and earlier (and NAND tech from earlier than that).  For example, the current Intel X25-M drive was released in July 2009!  All of the controller manufacturers are releasing "teasers" about their next gen controllers right now.

Even if you assume that the new stuff will be overpriced when it first ships (it will), and that you want to buy "last year's" tech anyway, if you wait until the new products ship, the inventory-clearing discounts available then for the old products will blow the current sales out of the water.
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bob

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Re: Does SSD drive improve MC searching?
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2010, 04:40:34 pm »

I know you were joking, but that's a false equivalency.  ;)

Yes, tech always progresses, and yes, you can always wait and get more for less money later.  However, there are certainly "good times" and "bad times" to buy certain individual pieces of technology, based on product cycles and release schedules.

Now is not a good time to buy SSD technology.  Many of the drives are actually on sale right now for much lower prices than they have been over the past 12 months or so, but that is only because the stores and manufacturers are trying to clear out inventory before the incoming onslaught of new drives coming in November, December, and January decimates the pricing for the remaining old inventory.  The current generation of drives and controllers are, right now, all based on controllers released in Q4 2009 and earlier (and NAND tech from earlier than that).  For example, the current Intel X25-M drive was released in July 2009!  All of the controller manufacturers are releasing "teasers" about their next gen controllers right now.
...

I've been wondering for months about why things in the SSD area seem so status quo...
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glynor

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Re: Does SSD drive improve MC searching?
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2010, 05:36:36 pm »

Yep.  Intel teased some specs for the "Postville Refresh" Generation 3 controller just a couple of days ago: http://www.anandtech.com/show/3965/intels-3rd-generation-x25m-ssd-specs-revealed

Specs were conservative, as expected.  Intel's quoted specs have always been relatively conservative, but they hit those numbers 100% of the time (or better in some cases).  Until Sandforce, other controller designs have claimed better numbers, but there have been lots of "exceptions" and "issues" (Indilinx).  Intel said all along that Postville Refresh would be targeted at bringing prices DOWN.  Exact rollouts haven't been officially announced, but different models are expected to trickle out in Q4 2010 through early Q1 2011.

Sandforce, of course, released the ton of info about their upcoming refresh (linked above) in response.  Drives based on Sandforce's new controller aren't expected until later in Q1 2011 (and could slip into Q2, probably), but they should be sweet, even if they don't quite hit all the targets they've set (they'll carry a substantial price premium for some time, though).

Indilinx is expected with something any time now as well.  I'd guess we'll see some teasing of "leaks" from them any day now...

If you want to buy one before the Holidays, then you might end up frustrated, but if you can wait until Q1 of next year, the situation should look much brighter indeed.  I'm doing my best to wait.
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Matt

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Re: Does SSD drive improve MC searching?
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2010, 10:17:25 pm »

I think SSDs are one of the neatest transformations in computing hardware in a long time.

I didn't realize how often I was waiting for (and listening to) my hard drive until I switched.
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glynor

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Re: Does SSD drive improve MC searching?
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2010, 11:02:20 pm »

I think SSDs are one of the neatest transformations in computing hardware in a long time.

Agreed.
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rjm

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Re: Does SSD drive improve MC searching?
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2010, 02:24:48 am »

Do they have a shorter lifetime than regular drives due to limited write cycles?
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glynor

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Re: Does SSD drive improve MC searching?
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2010, 11:03:15 am »

Do they have a shorter lifetime than regular drives due to limited write cycles?

Generally no.

All SSD controllers use wear leveling routines that prevent certain areas of the NAND from burning out.  Also, all SSD drives are over-provisioned by a percentage that varies depending on the controller system used.  So, when you buy a 128GB drive, it actually contains 135-160GB of NAND flash, with the remainder reserved by the controller to use for wear leveling (and performance reasons in some cases).  Also, the "better" controller (Intel, Sandforce, and Indilinx) based drives use a variety of other compression and caching schemes to minimize writes to the drives.  For example, the way NAND Flash is structured requires that the smallest write possible to the "disk" is the block level.  This means that if you only need to write 12k of data, you actually have to read and then re-write a full 512k block (this is called write amplification).  So, to counteract this, modern SSD disks employ sophisticated caching schemes where writes are done to onboard DRAM, which stores up writes until block-aligned writes can be done, minimizing the "wasted re-write cycles" (this also speeds writes up, conveniently).  Modern controllers also use sophisticated compression schemes and predictive analysis to further improve write performance and wear leveling.

The main concern really only appears in enterprise use-cases, specifically when used in a high-throughput database server, like those used to serve a large database-driven website (like Amazon).  The issue with these systems is that, in some usage scenarios, relational databases perform many, many, many small writes to the drives.  In everyday use, these tiny writes are handled seamlessly by the caching system, but if there are thousands of them in a sustained day-in-day-out fashion, the inefficiencies inherent to the caching system designs start to surface (even if you try really hard, you can't always align all of those writes to 512k blocks, so there is still some waste).  That's why enterprise class drives have typically used more-expensive SLC NAND, rather than the much more dense MLC NAND (until this coming generation, anyway).  SLC Flash is faster and has dramatically improved write endurance.  Unfortunately, it is also way more expensive (because MLC allows for much more storage space in the same amount of silicon).  That's why "enterprise-class" SSD drives are often much more expensive for much smaller capacities.  This was once a much more serious problem than it is now.  As controllers have improved and new compression and caching techniques have been developed, drive longevity has increased exponentially.  That's why most of the manufacturers are moving to use MLC NAND with their next generation drives, even those targeted at the enterprise market.

However, these types of uses are absolutely edge-cases.  In the vast majority of drive uses (even enterprise class uses), reads outweigh writes by a dramatic margin (5 or 6 to one for most database servers), and in home uses, the ratio is even larger.  Home users also often tend to perform large (easy to cache) writes all at once, rather than lots of tiny writes spread out over time.  You write to your disk a bunch when you install a new game or software package, download a file, or similar behaviors, but in general everyday use, writes are fairly rare (mostly just logging in Windows and updating settings and things like that).  Windows' built-in write caching scheme (designed to speed up writes to slow magnetic media) also helps the drive prevent premature burn-out. Sophisticated analysis of modern drives using good controllers now predicts lifespans ranging from 20 - 50 years for most "average" users.  In other words, they blow magnetic drives out of the water.

If you want to learn more, here is a great place to start (though he is certainly focused on academic and enterprise use-cases): http://www.storagesearch.com/ssdmyths-endurance.html#endure
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rjm

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Re: Does SSD drive improve MC searching?
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2010, 11:12:58 am »

Superb information as always from you Glynor. Thanks for taking the time to explain. I will have to get a SSD next time I update my system.

Rob
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