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[Barbie-boy]

Hello all,
I output from my soundcard optically in Stereo. I bypass all effects and eq as I don't feel I need them.

1. Would there be any sonic difference if I replace my soundcard (Asus Xonar D1) with a more expensive one ? Not using any of the features other than straight digital out.

2. The DAC I am using is the one under the lid of my 6 year old AV Processor (Rotel RSP-1068 which uses 4x Stereo AK4395 DACs). Would a modern outboard DAC blow this away ? Any recommendations ?

Thanks in advance !

[MrMoto]

Hi, I don't know how good your system is nor how discriminate are your ears but I can tell you that an outboard DAC will definitely blow your sound card away. Big time.

There's been in the last year an explosion of new and affordable DACs that perform extremely well. Prices vary from below 100.00$ to 5000.00$ (and probably more).

I own an HRT Streamer+ (USB DAC). It was worth around 300.00$ and performs in a way that was not possible under 1000.00$ a year before. They also have a basic model at around 150.00$ that sounds almost as good. It's a simple plug and play device. Highly recomended.

[DarkPenguin]

Hi, I don't know how good your system is nor how discriminate are your ears but I can tell you that an outboard DAC will definitely blow your sound card away. Big time.

Not necessarily the way he is using it, tho.  He is using the optical output of his sound card and letting the DAC in his Rotel decode it.  The sound card, depending on how he is doing that, is likely just passing data.  So the question is whether the DAC in his Rotel is better or worse than an outboard DAC.

[MrMoto]

Euhhh! That's what I meant. Sorry.

A recent outboard DAC will definitely sound better, if the rest of the system is of decent quality. Like I said, there's been a lot of developpement in this area lately.

[mschneid]

bits are bits.... timing on the other hand is tough.   The PC to DAC or AV receiver ( in your case) interface can introduce jitter which is a subtle annoying hash (if you will) in the sound.  You can find better or worse interfaces for optical or wire cables in the hardware out there.  The latest designs use asynchronous transfer which minimizes or eliminates the jitter issue.  You are not likely to find an AV receiver with an asynchronous USB or SPDIF (optical) input.  Several of the latest DAC designs will have this technology.   Equally important is the output amplifier stage after the DA conversion and found in the DAC... (this costs real money). Finally, you always have a weakest link problem.... you could purchase a reference quality DAC and send it high resolution (better then redbook CD files) through a great output amplifier in the DAC and loose all of the effect in your lower quality AV receiver through it's pre amp and power amp stages.

If your music is Lossless (Flac) or even better one of the high resolution formats, then a modern high resolution DAC with an asynchronous interface and a quality output stage should improve the sound.  The magnitude of improvement will depend on your down stream equipment.  You get what you pay for in the end...   The old advice that I have followed is start at the source,  have a budget and plan in mind which spends about equal amounts on source, amplification and speakers and you will have a balanced fine sounding system in the end.   Moreover, you will appreciate each improvement that you make.

[Barbie-boy]

Hi guys and thanks for your input, really appreciated.

In a moment of madness I switched outputs from my soundcard from optical to analogue and thus letting it do all the processing - OMG.... the difference was unbelievable, in a nutshell the soundcard's DAC being way way better than the Rotel's.... The Rotel has gone folks and gobbled up on ebay. I am now outputting directly from my soundcard into my poweramp controlling volume with JRiver's internal control.

Ok where do I go from here ? Well does seem that with the advent of asynchronous USB DACs like the Arcam rDAC making soundcards appear to be pretty well redundant, I shall go and borrow one from a shop this week and report back.

Thanks again !

[WinoOutWest]

Interesting feedback.  And is this just with the Asus soundcard or are you using a different DAC.   Reason I am asking is that I am using an Xonar optically as well.

[Barbie-boy]

Ok I had to wait a bit to get the cash for the new Arcam rDAC which has fortunately just dropped in price. got it yesterday, so early days yet but sound improved a great deal after 5 or so hours of listening yesterday. Tons more detail starting to come through compared to the Asus card. Hopefully by the weekend things will have improved still further giving me a better picture. So it is looking like you can be rid of your soundcard as they are not needed as you can go directly out via the usb with these DACs. Mediaplayer 14 picks up the DAC instantly and becomes selectable in the Audio output settings. Getting back to your optical connection, perhaps that's the problem, it didn't sound very nice with the Rotel (which was hardly a cheap piece of equipment..). Ok, I will do a test and see how this DAC compares to an optical feed over USB.

Meanwhile you might like to read this:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Arcam-rDAC-Asynchronous-USB-DAC-Review

[dumpster]

If you are actually hearing a difference between the outboard DAC and Rotel DAC, then you probably have a computer setup issue, driver, or wiring issue with the soundcard.  You aren't going to hear a difference between the Rotel DAC or any other DAC if all other variables are the same.  Many dispute that and don't distinguish what seems to be a better design on paper and what actually is audible, but all well-designed double blind tests show otherwise (lots on hydrogenaudio site related to this topic).  As an integrated curcuit designer of devices that include DACs, I'd love to say that all design attributes make an audible difference in sound, but that's just not true.  Jitter is also blown way out of proportion in its audible impact, and I would be shocked if you or anyone else could prove jitter in anything made in the last 6 or 8 years was audible in music - no one else has yet proven any audible impact via a double-blind test.  Digital signals were literally conceived and designed to maximize immunity to noise, so the whole "computer noise" and power supply noise worries are also overblown.

I suggest you look at your soundcard setup closer to give it a fair shot, and try to set up a blind test with a friend or two, to see if the outboard DAC is your best value compared to spending the money on more music or other needs.  Most blind test fail on volume differences - the louder setup will be perceived as "better" - or fail to keep other variables the same across the test setups.   To avoid software and processor issues from impacting the computer output in any setup, see if you are using ASIO or WASAPI drivers, and try not to run lots of other programs at the same time.

The good news is that there is far less to worry about than sellers of expensive equipment would have you believe, so have some fun with a fair test and use the test as an excuse to play a ridiculous amount and variety of music with friends!

[JimH]

Good advice.

[Barbie-boy]

Thanks dumpster,

Been listening all weekend without a care in the world. But did do a comparison between USB and optical feeds into the Arcam rDAC, the difference was quite noticable indeed. USB being far clearer, detailed and tactile, Optical (via my particular soundcard with all settings correct) was dull and flat, softer or smeared comes to mind.

Sooo, that is all I can say about what I have heard here in front of me. The only downside of the USB being the background hash, admittedly I have to put my ear right up to the speaker to hear it. But regardless of this the USB is still by far the best way to go into this particular DAC.

BTW I would love to know how to analyse the volume level of all the files on my hard drive, I can only see how to do this per album. How can I do the whole lot in one hit please ?!

If you are actually hearing a difference between the outboard DAC and Rotel DAC, then you probably have a computer setup issue, driver, or wiring issue with the soundcard.  You aren't going to hear a difference between the Rotel DAC or any other DAC if all other variables are the same.  Many dispute that and don't distinguish what seems to be a better design on paper and what actually is audible, but all well-designed double blind tests show otherwise (lots on hydrogenaudio site related to this topic).  As an integrated curcuit designer of devices that include DACs, I'd love to say that all design attributes make an audible difference in sound, but that's just not true.  Jitter is also blown way out of proportion in its audible impact, and I would be shocked if you or anyone else could prove jitter in anything made in the last 6 or 8 years was audible in music - no one else has yet proven any audible impact via a double-blind test.  Digital signals were literally conceived and designed to maximize immunity to noise, so the whole "computer noise" and power supply noise worries are also overblown.

I suggest you look at your soundcard setup closer to give it a fair shot, and try to set up a blind test with a friend or two, to see if the outboard DAC is your best value compared to spending the money on more music or other needs.  Most blind test fail on volume differences - the louder setup will be perceived as "better" - or fail to keep other variables the same across the test setups.   To avoid software and processor issues from impacting the computer output in any setup, see if you are using ASIO or WASAPI drivers, and try not to run lots of other programs at the same time.

The good news is that there is far less to worry about than sellers of expensive equipment would have you believe, so have some fun with a fair test and use the test as an excuse to play a ridiculous amount and variety of music with friends!

[pcstockton]

If you are actually hearing a difference between the outboard DAC and Rotel DAC, then you probably have a computer setup issue, driver, or wiring issue with the soundcard.  You aren't going to hear a difference between the Rotel DAC or any other DAC if all other variables are the same.

WHAT??!!?!?!?  Are you saying the analog output of my Juli@ soundcard will be IDENTICAL to the analog outputs of my Naim DAC?  Price, jitter and technical specs aside, it is night and day.  EASILY borne out by listening.  You would pick each one every single time.

I dont know what you have for playback gear, but you are sorely mistaken on this one.

Just look at the power supplies and analog outputs on the Naim DAC for example.  No soundcard, nor many other DACs, sound this good.

I agree you dont need to spend $20K to get great replay.  But to say ALL DACs sound identical is mad.

-Patrick

[Barbie-boy]

I'm afraid I have to agree with Patrick on this one. On paper the Rotel pre / processor (1068) should have been the business, but not.. Perhaps it could have been better if I had been able to feed it with a COAX, but my soundcard does not support this. Though come to think of it I did try this out with my last CD player (Teac VRDS 10SE) and switched between COAX and Analogue to which there was little difference, apart from the COAX sounding a bit harder. But yesterday switching between USB and Toslink was very noticeable.

WHAT??!!?!?!?  Are you saying the analog output of my Juli@ soundcard will be IDENTICAL to the analog outputs of my Naim DAC?  Price, jitter and technical specs aside, it is night and day.  EASILY borne out by listening.  You would pick each one every single time.

I dont know what you have for playback gear, but you are sorely mistaken on this one.

Just look at the power supplies and analog outputs on the Naim DAC for example.  No soundcard, nor many other DACs, sound this good.

I agree you dont need to spend $20K to get great replay.  But to say ALL DACs sound identical is mad.

-Patrick

[dumpster]

BTW I would love to know how to analyse the volume level of all the files on my hard drive, I can only see how to do this per album. How can I do the whole lot in one hit please ?!

The best way I've found to infer recording level information is to run Replaygain on all files, and compare the gain calculations.  The more negative the calculated gain adjustment, the higher the recording level.

I use Foobar to run Replaygain on large numbers of files in one shot - I find it very reliable and fast.  You can perform this analysis and save the results as a tag value, and decide later if you ever want to use the tag info to perform any volume leveling upon playback.

[pcstockton]

Dumpster,

I never use replay gain so my understanding might not be spot on but....

I think replay gain exists within a given set of files.  There must be some reference.  I dont think you can simply tag for replay gain (beyond album level), all of your music and then cherry pick albums and expect them to play at the same volume.

[Barbie-boy]

Dumpster,

I never use replay gain so my understanding might not be spot on but....

I think replay gain exists within a given set of files.  There must be some reference.  I dont think you can simply tag for replay gain (beyond album level), all of your music and then cherry pick albums and expect them to play at the same volume.

How about staring afresh ? I mean by deleting the entire library and reimporting the lot. I assume that there is some setting when importing to set the volume ?

[pcstockton]

Sorry I cant help more on replay gain.  I use a FULLY manual replay gain, i.e. the Volume Knob.

I bet a wiki search will bear this out for you.

Every once in a while i will load two albums (same album, different version/mastering) into a playlist, then use replay gain in an attempt to level the volume between the two.

Otherwise, in tens of thousands of hours of listening to music, I have never once wished I used it or even considered it in any way.  Not even when doing a big shuffled playlist.

-Patrick

[Matt]

BTW I would love to know how to analyse the volume level of all the files on my hard drive, I can only see how to do this per album. How can I do the whole lot in one hit please ?!

Select all your files in Media Center > Right-click > Library Tools > Analyze Audio.

The best way I've found to infer recording level information is to run Replaygain on all files, and compare the gain calculations.  The more negative the calculated gain adjustment, the higher the recording level.

This is a good method.  You can add 'Replay Gain' as a column and sort by it in Media Center.

[marcdds]

I use an HRT MusicStreamer II+ at home with hi-quality USB cable and good RCA out cables to my Audioengine2 speakers. It makes a hugh difference in sound. At my office I recently got a NuForce u-DAC2-HP going to Bose Companion 2 speakers. Also a big difference. I am still learning on setting up Media Jukebox properly to take advantage of the settings, esp with my Hi-Def Flac files.

[bobbmd]

anyone know anything about gigabit ethernet sound card with spdif digital out
AND cambridge audio dacmagic plus and how they work with jriver or separately
and anyone know anything about cd ripping services ie pickled productions musicshifter ready to play

[Audioseduction]

A spdif digital out is not too good IMHO as it's noisy. I would recommend a good 24/192 USB to SPDIF converter and output your audio via USB. As you can see in my sig is what I did. In the High-end audio industry many audiophiles do it this way to achieve SOTA playback performance.

[JimH]

A spdif digital out is not too good IMHO as it's noisy.

I don't think that's accurate information.

[pcstockton]

A spdif digital out is not too good IMHO as it's noisy. I would recommend a good 24/192 USB to SPDIF converter and output your audio via USB. As you can see in my sig is what I did. In the High-end audio industry many audiophiles do it this way to achieve SOTA playback performance.

I am not sure a direct electronic connection to a potentially VERY noisy PC environment is better than SPDIF's shortcomings.  If you said a BNC or coax connection is better between a DAC and a streamer, I would buy that.  But USB vs SPDIF is likely to be equal or even worse with USB.

-patrick