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[fredphoesh]

Hello guys,

I have just uploaded a video to youtube demonstrating what I am talking about... please see it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5olBkhgziE8

The video is a demonstration made to show the JRiver Media Center developers what I would like their software to include in the current version 16. I bought JRiver 6 or 8 months ago, but switched to XBMC after XBMC developed their fantastic android app, but am now considering moving back... but there are some things XBMC does VERY well in Theatre View.

XBMC offers excellent biography/album review scraping, as well as lyrics and some Fan Art.  
JRiver does not have the biography/album review in Theatre View mode, but does a great job scraping google images for fan art, which IMO is better than XBMC's sole reliance on a very spotty database for "fan art".

What I sincerely hope to see soon is JRiver incorporating AllMusic Biographies and Album Reviews into the Theatre View, and perhaps even lyrics too.

Congratulations on your Android app guys, verrrry niiiice!
Please watch the vid, thanks!
Mark.

[rick.ca]

What I sincerely hope to see soon is JRiver incorporating AllMusic Biographies and Album Reviews into the Theatre View, and perhaps even lyrics too.

While some aspects of the XBMC way of displaying information is visually appealing, for the most part, I find it gimmicky and ineffective compared to the how the same thing is done in MC. My Theatre View includes Allmusic biographies, album reviews, lyrics and more—all displayed in a way that's flexible, fast and easy to use. The only shortcoming of MC, as I see it, is the lack of any easy way to acquire the meta data. I doubt anyone would be interested in my solution...I use a modified version of Personal Video Database to download album and artist data from Allmusic (using a modified Allmovie script), and import that using PvdImport.

The problems associated with JRiver providing users access to third party data, and the possible solution of providing a scripting engine were discussed at some length here. I like to think my goofy solution—aside from the fact it works perfectly for me—is a valid "proof of concept." I'm not a programmer, and don't even have much of an aptitude for such things. Nevertheless, with a little effort, I was able to modify a script (written by a programmer) for the Allmovie site to do the same sort of thing for the Allmusic site. Imagine what it would be like if many of us were doing the same sort of thing, and we could share our scripts because they all run on the MC scripting engine.

[darichman]

I use a modified version of Personal Video Database to download album and artist data from Allmusic (using a modified Allmovie script), and import that using PvdImport.

Wow, that's really clever - do you import the album tracks into PVD? Did it take much fiddling to get the Allmovie script working with Alllmusic?

[rick.ca]

do you import the album tracks into PVD?

Yes, all tracks for each album are matched to an album record by the file scanner function. That captures the MediaInfo data for the album (# files, total size, duration, codecs, etc.) as well as providing the necessary link for PvdImport. All the data is going to relational album fields, so it's irrelevant the records are albums in PVD and tracks in MC.

Did it take much fiddling to get the Allmovie script working with Alllmusic?

I believe we've touched on this before...My primary programming technique is trial and error. So, yes, it took much "fiddling." There are many things that work, and I have no idea why.

[sunfire7]

I'd love to see more work on MC's Theatre View, for Music is excellent for me (some details have to be added as you mention), but for movies and series is just not good enough compared to XBMC or Media Portal, so my solution is a link on Theatre View to Media Portal.  Maybe if J River improves the handle of movies and series, this could change, but now is no competitor to other solutions

[fredphoesh]

While some aspects of the XBMC way of displaying information is visually appealing, for the most part, I find it gimmicky and ineffective compared to the how the same thing is done in MC. My Theatre View includes Allmusic biographies, album reviews, lyrics and more—all displayed in a way that's flexible, fast and easy to use. The only shortcoming of MC, as I see it, is the lack of any easy way to acquire the meta data. I doubt anyone would be interested in my solution...I use a modified version of Personal Video Database to download album and artist data from Allmusic (using a modified Allmovie script), and import that using PvdImport.

Hi there Rick and others,
As you say, you had to hack/do special encoding etc to your software in order to get it to do what you would like. XBMC does this with no hacking needed, and that is obviously preferable to the masses who do not want to be needing to do a lot of work to get the bells and whistles

It would really be great if MC would make scripts like yours default so everyone can enjoy them!
Thanks,
Mark.

[flac.rules]

While some aspects of the XBMC way of displaying information is visually appealing, for the most part, I find it gimmicky and ineffective compared to the how the same thing is done in MC. My Theatre View includes Allmusic biographies, album reviews, lyrics and more—all displayed in a way that's flexible, fast and easy to use. The only shortcoming of MC, as I see it, is the lack of any easy way to acquire the meta data. I doubt anyone would be interested in my solution...I use a modified version of Personal Video Database to download album and artist data from Allmusic (using a modified Allmovie script), and import that using PvdImport.

There has been pretty hig demand in the past (at least as far as i can see), about making the theatre view a bit more "flashy", especially when it comes to movies and TV-series. Visually many of the front-ends are ahead of MC, i would really like to see some progress when it comes to this, and also what you mention about accuering metadata.

[rick.ca]

As you say, you had to hack/do special encoding etc to your software in order to get it to do what you would like.

I said nothing of the sort. I used a plugin to import data, just a XBMC does. And I configured Theatre View to display the information I want, exactly the way I want it. I suppose not everyone cares about the power and flexibility of MC, and may be incapable of configuring something according to their needs. They might be better off with XBMC. But it doesn't come close to fulfilling my needs, so I don't see much value in comparisons.

It would really be great if MC would make scripts like yours default so everyone can enjoy them!

My script is native to another proprietary scripting engine. Even if MC included a scripting engine, it wouldn't run my script. The point is, if MC had a scripting engine, users could collaborate in developing and sharing scripts.

I'd love to see more work on MC's Theatre View, for Music is excellent for me (some details have to be added as you mention), but for movies and series is just not good enough compared to XBMC or Media Portal, so my solution is a link on Theatre View to Media Portal.  Maybe if J River improves the handle of movies and series, this could change, but now is no competitor to other solutions

I don't understand what you mean. My Theatre View, using exactly the same features, displays even more information for movies and series than it does for music. Whatever it may lack in "flash" (nothing of value, IMO), it more than makes up for in power and flexibility.

[fredphoesh]

I said nothing of the sort. I used a plugin to import data, just a XBMC does.

Rick, I think you are taking this a little personally for some reason. This is not a personal attack!

My point is that I would like MC to be able to display all this useful information without one having to jump though hoops and understand all sorts of complicated things to be able to have them displayed.

It would be great if biographies/album reviews/lyrics could all be downloaded automatically and displayed by default in MC.

Cheers,
Mark.

[rick.ca]

It would be great if biographies/album reviews/lyrics could all be downloaded automatically and displayed by default in MC.

So what? For some very good reasons, like...

• JRiver does not own or have the right to distribute any any meta data;
• a wide range of user needs and preferences cannot be satisfied by anything "downloaded automatically and displayed by default;" and
• in most respects, the display model of Theatre View is already vastly superior to that of XBMC and the like.

...this is never going to happen. I thought it might be useful to discuss potential solutions to MC's actual shortcomings. I'm sorry you're not interested.

[flac.rules]

1. Do they have to own rights do download text from the internet? Not in general at the very least. However this can also be solved by having scrapers getting the data as a plugin, but this doesn't exist as of today.
2. Its no worse than having a similar settings as today with for instance cover-art, you can choose to download it if you want.
3. Frankly, its not, look at the evolution theme in meedios for instance, its miles ahead in visual appeal. And similar when it comes to information layout. And this is a serious shortcomming for many, judging from earlier discussions. Im pretty sure this is more or less the only reason people bother with media-center frontends at all when they have MC.

[fredphoesh]

So what? For some very good reasons, like...

• JRiver does not own or have the right to distribute any any meta data;
• a wide range of user needs and preferences cannot be satisfied by anything "downloaded automatically and displayed by default;" and
• in most respects, the display model of Theatre View is already vastly superior to that of XBMC and the like.

...this is never going to happen. I thought it might be useful to discuss potential solutions to MC's actual shortcomings. I'm sorry you're not interested.

WOW.
Im not sure, perhaps you had too many cups of coffee today?

I started this thread, so it would be useful to converse about the things I was asking about, and I am interested in being able to, by default, get the kind of info XBMC has in it's music playback, by default. Not having these things present by default is, IMO a large shortcoming of MC.

I dont know if XBMC have some special arrangement with Allmusic, I doubt it since their app is free, so I do not think they have had to fork out loads of money for their use of Allmusic's fantastic database... nor the 3 lyrics sites they harness info from.

As I was saying in the first post and in my video, XBMC has everything I want for my listening to music with visual/informational inputs in my lounge, all EXCEPT it does not do a Google Images search like MC does, by default. I have asked XBMC developers to do that, and they said no. I came here to ask if MC could include the fantastic bits I like about XBMC, but I have not heard back from the developers yet.

FWIW,  I do not agree MC is superior for Theatre view because as they stand, I choose XBMC.

Still hopeful that for Jim/developers might add the biography/review features...
Mark.

[rick.ca]

...it would be useful to converse about the things I was asking about...

That's what I was attempting to do, but it seems you haven't even read the topic I referred you to. Whether you like it or not, there are constraints to what JRiver can do. It's probably difficult for the developers to choose a path that would be feasible and satisfy all. I like to think user discussions about such things might be of some help and encouragement to them. "I want everything by default" might be an logical starting point, but being stuck there is not helpful.

What is your objection to the solution I suggested?

[fredphoesh]

What is your objection to the solution I suggested?

Rick I have no objection to any solution, but have an aversion to working with scripts... just daunting and I am very likely to bugger it up...

If I could copy and paste your whatevers and make it work as easily as that, I would love to try out what you have done, but doing the code myself seems a bit beyond me... that's my only cause to hesitate.

About the default question... MC already has different "views" within Theatre Mode... when you navigate from one view to another, the contents displayed change... so I could see "biograpy view" and "album review view" being very welcome additions to the Theatre View menus.

tx
Mark

[bil1010105]

FWIW Fred, I am in complete agreement with you.

I mentioned this way back in the days of MC13 and got the same hostile response from the "regulars" on here.

You're flogging a dead horse. I came to the conclusion a long time ago that MC is never going to make it easy for you to use the kind of metadata that every other media centre software uses as a matter of course. There may be copyright or contractual reasons why not, but that doesn't seem to impair the other media centres on the market... so who can say. MC16 is a bit better, but still nothing like enough.

It's a real shame, because without that, MC will never be prime time in my living room. I can only use it to tag music these days... which just seems a bit of a waste.

[sunfire7]

I don't understand what you mean. My Theatre View, using exactly the same features, displays even more information for movies and series than it does for music. Whatever it may lack in "flash" (nothing of value, IMO), it more than makes up for in power and flexibility.

rick.ca, I saw your screens and I wonder for your process of obtain metadata for the series, because in other programs, you only have to copy/move to the folder you are "watching" in settings and it will obtain series, season, episode number, sinopsis and backdrop, all this in the background without user interaction, and all shown beautifully on screen, I dont have anything agains the flexibility of MC, I think is a great thing but has yet its limitations. Can't the users (costumers) and devs talk and forge the path of MC's Theatre View?

[flac.rules]

That's what I was attempting to do, but it seems you haven't even read the topic I referred you to. Whether you like it or not, there are constraints to what JRiver can do. It's probably difficult for the developers to choose a path that would be feasible and satisfy all. I like to think user discussions about such things might be of some help and encouragement to them. "I want everything by default" might be an logical starting point, but being stuck there is not helpful.

What is your objection to the solution I suggested?

Everybody knows that everyone can't be satisfied, however I would think you are the minority in this case, not caring about the having a nice polished look for instance probably is a minority opinion (at least among people who actually want to use a theatre view), so is the want to use a 3rd party program and making custom scripts. Although there is a somewhat of a contradiction between flexibility and ease of use, the theatre view has a lot of possible improvement in this case. Meedios for instance is extremely configurable, frankly, hell to setup, however getting metadata and a very nice looking display is easy.

[cncb]

One thing I think you guys might be missing is that these other programs are open source/free and as such if the web sites don't like the scraping going on who do they go after to stop it?  JRiver as a visible, for-profit company doesn't have the luxury of this "shield".

[sunfire7]

One thing I think you guys might be missing is that these other programs are open source/free and as such if the web sites don't like the scraping going on who do they go after to stop it?  JRiver as a visible, for-profit company doesn't have the luxury of this "shield".

maybe devs wants to check it:

http://api.themoviedb.org/2.1

http://thetvdb.com/wiki/index.php?title=Programmers_API

[fredphoesh]

One thing I think you guys might be missing is that these other programs are open source/free and as such if the web sites don't like the scraping going on who do they go after to stop it?  JRiver as a visible, for-profit company doesn't have the luxury of this "shield".

That may or may not be the case, I don't know for sure, but there are sites one can scrape from, just as MC already scrapes Google Image searches for "fan art", I imagine MC could scrape Wikipedia for biographies and album reviews (in the same way that Mixzing music player does on my Android phone)

For me, having grown up holding album covers in my hands and reading the liner notes while listening, the idea of being able to read biographies and reviews while listening is FANTASTIC, and the google images in the background is a bonus too... It really adds something that got taken away as soon as music was not via a physical disk, but a downloadable, invisible file.

Please guys, please with a big cherry on top, its got to be do-able.

tx
Mark.

[preproman]

I have just uploaded a video to youtube demonstrating what I am talking about... please see it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5olBkhgziE8

Hey Mark,

Can you shoot me a link to where you got that wireless keyboard your using? 

Thanks..

[rick.ca]

Rick I have no objection to any solution, but have an aversion to working with scripts...

I did not suggest what I'm doing as a solution. I made it quite clear most users would consider it impractical. The solution I suggested was that JRiver develop a scripting engine that would allow user-developed scripts to retrieve any data from anywhere. I don't know if that's the proper way to describe what other applications do, but I'd be surprised if that's not exactly what some of them do. I really don't understand your objection to my suggestion the same capability that exists in other applications should be added to MC.

Also the way TMDb and the TVDb API's work is different than "scrapers," a common script engine could accommodate both. To most users, how these things work would be largely transparent. They would just install and configure the components they want, and then their data would be automatically updated.

About the default question... MC already has different "views" within Theatre Mode... when you navigate from one view to another, the contents displayed change... so I could see "biograpy view" and "album review view" being very welcome additions to the Theatre View menus.

As I've already said and illustrated, MC's Theatre View is already perfectly capable of displaying any such information. Unlike some of it's competitors, the information displayed and how it's displayed is not dependent upon the skin that is used—it's available through a user-friendly configuration.

[fredphoesh]

I did not suggest what I'm doing as a solution. I made it quite clear most users would consider it impractical. The solution I suggested was that JRiver develop a scripting engine that would allow user-developed scripts to retrieve any data from anywhere. I don't know if that's the proper way to describe what other applications do, but I'd be surprised if that's not exactly what some of them do. I really don't understand your objection to my suggestion the same capability that exists in other applications should be added to MC.

Rick, it is difficult to hear you when you are so constantly annoyed, demeaning and patronising.

I am not against your idea, if it makes it easy to have what I would like, I would welcome it enthusiastically. If it is just a matter of installing something without having to "code" or "script" anything oneself, that would be great!

I hope Jim/dev people move on this... for me the only thing that keeps me from MC, despite having sprung $50 for it a short while ago.

Cheers,
Mark.

[fredphoesh]

Can you shoot me a link to where you got that wireless keyboard your using? 

Hi there,
the keyboard is great, I have tried 3 before, and this one can take (certain brands of) rechargeable AA batteries, a big plus for someone who wants to be green. (I returned the other two to the shops I got them from because they did not take rechargeable batteries at all, 1.2v vs 1.5v for Alkali)

Keysonic ACK-540 RF

Cheers,
Mark.

[Daydream]

As I've already said and illustrated, MC's Theatre View is already perfectly capable of displaying any such information. Unlike some of it's competitors, the information displayed and how it's displayed is not dependent upon the skin that is used—it's available through a user-friendly configuration.

On the one and only skin available. For 3 years. That makes the argument kind of funny.
Your screencaps above match the Info panel in XBMC. The metadata XBMC shows while navigating the media is unmatched. And even Info screen for Info screen, I'll ask you about the cd arts, the studio arts, the music label arts and a few things like that - to demonstrate the limitation of metadata in MC. There is no design-with-purpose thought process in MC.

It doesn't matter if you use what I mentioned, even if I used them. It matters that those options are in place and there are many smart people working and improving daily what is shown and how in XBMC. While over here it is 1% freedom (so you can tweak a color here and there in MC) and 99% features lock-down under hard to understand, undocumented design choices.

Where you say gimmicky and ineffective, I say advanced design and freedom.

Weave as you like your dbase fields. That is not IT.

[JimH]

There is no design-with-purpose thought process in MC.

Really?

[fredphoesh]

there are many smart people working and improving daily what is shown and how in XBMC. While over here it is 1% freedom

Hi there Daydream,
The reason for me coming to this forum is that I had a similar experience on the xbmc forum where I started a thread and was asking some guy there (the chap who actually was responsible for biographies and album reviews to be added to xbmc) if they would consider being able to play Google Image search results in the background as an option to their "Album Art" which is very limited in my experience. I mentioned to him that MC implements this well, and even offered him £40 beer money to add the feature. He said he has no interest in creating eye candy, after the music has been navigated to, he has no interest in visuals while music is playing. I felt it was really difficult trying to put forward to him the case that there are MANY people who love seeing relevant images while listening... anyway, suffice to say that my experience of the xbmc forum has also been one of elitism and a knee jerk negativity to new ideas... perhaps I caught him/them on a bad day.

Dang, bizarre, I want XBMC to have something that MC has and MC to have some things XBMC has... I would gladly jump to a new HTMC softaware if it incorporated all those things.
Mark.

[cncb]

And even Info screen for Info screen, I'll ask you about the cd arts, the studio arts, the music label arts and a few things like that - to demonstrate the limitation of metadata in MC.

Aren't you limited to seeing what the "skin designer" thinks you should see?  How is this more "freedom" than easily selecting the metadata you want displayed as in MC?  And does XBMC provide an easy way to edit and manage this extra metadata?

[bil1010105]

Aren't you limited to seeing what the "skin designer" thinks you should see?  How is this more "freedom" than easily selecting the metadata you want displayed as in MC?  And does XBMC provide an easy way to edit and manage this extra metadata?

MediaPortal does. And surely, this isn't really the point, is it? In MC, you're "limited" by what the View design says you can see - this is an intended and valued feature.

XBMC, Meedios, MediaPortal... none of them are perfect, but they all have one thing in common which MC doesn't have. The ability to get said metadata automatically and put it in a format that can be used & displayed in the host program by a clever person. And then after that, a dumb person (me).

MC is great at a lot of things. In most things it blows away the competition. But it lacks this extremely significant feature. And that is, for me, and others, a complete show stopper.

If putting in a "scripting language" would let the MP-TVSeries or Moving Pictures plugins for MediaPortal be adapted to work for MC then please bring it on. But my impression is that this isn't JRiver's style and they'd rather keep everything contained in the MC sandbox. So in that instance, the solution (if one were desired on their part...) would be to integrate the metadata gathering & display within the program itself, and provide a UI around it. Frankly, that would be a nightmare for them to implement (ever tried implementing a completely configurable UI? I have) - so I reiterate what I said in my previous post, they'll never make it easy for us to use & show media metadata from an online source.

Shame.

[Daydream]

Really?

You would probably fight me on the whole application, saying that it is, while I will fight you on the interface, saying that it isn't.

I do not understand that while you accept the help of a lot of smart people around here, to beta-test, write plugins, guides, or simply writing thousands of posts advising others on your behalf, you don't allow us to step in when it comes to the interface. Is there some inherent fear that we will change the applications look beyond any recognition, is the current design so integrated to the core that any external changes will make everything go haywire?

Aren't you limited to seeing what the "skin designer" thinks you should see?  How is this more "freedom" than easily selecting the metadata you want displayed as in MC?  And does XBMC provide an easy way to edit and manage this extra metadata?

1) The learning process of how and with what to edit the metadata in XBMC is on par (at the very least) with teaching somebody the ways of MC's database and then explain how to build a double roller menu (Theater view) to navigate things that are actually fields in a dbase. Of course there is a learning curve, of course it takes time and effort. But when you draw a line it comes down to this: I can make my own skin (or modify another) and place whatever I want wherever I like it in XBMC. You cannot say the same about MC, where I guess we need a discussion about graphical and interface design.

2) That means selecting the metadata and put in on the screen somewhere is not everything. That's why I wrote that weaving database fields is not "IT". Presentation, style, thoughs about how fast certain something is perceived and how, how pleasant an experience - all these details are lost here. There is information better expressed as text, or as pictures or as symbols. How do you put these things together, the final experience it's what matters. It requires certain abilities, beyond opening Photoshop and saying "now what?". A 95% transparent gradient may almost be invisible when creating the graphics, while once applied in the interface it creates the illusory effect of a faded glow. We just don't talk about things like this in here. You are so entrenched into your whirlpool of everything databases and metadata that I feel compelled to yell every now and then "This are supposed to be made for humans, not robots!"

Collecting metadata is not a purpose per se. You have to have a proper way to show it. MC's way (and yours, all of you arguing the benefits of the current state) is mechanically structured and executed. It lacks wonder.

[JimH]

We have benefitted greatly from the advice of many users on every aspect of the program, including the interface. 

I'm sorry you feel otherwise.  My impression of your posts is that you are often critical, but rarely provide details we can use.  Perhaps I've overlooked something.

[sunfire7]

MediaPortal does. And surely, this isn't really the point, is it? In MC, you're "limited" by what the View design says you can see - this is an intended and valued feature.

XBMC, Meedios, MediaPortal... none of them are perfect, but they all have one thing in common which MC doesn't have. The ability to get said metadata automatically and put it in a format that can be used & displayed in the host program by a clever person. And then after that, a dumb person (me).

MC is great at a lot of things. In most things it blows away the competition. But it lacks this extremely significant feature. And that is, for me, and others, a complete show stopper.

If putting in a "scripting language" would let the MP-TVSeries or Moving Pictures plugins for MediaPortal be adapted to work for MC then please bring it on. But my impression is that this isn't JRiver's style and they'd rather keep everything contained in the MC sandbox. So in that instance, the solution (if one were desired on their part...) would be to integrate the metadata gathering & display within the program itself, and provide a UI around it. Frankly, that would be a nightmare for them to implement (ever tried implementing a completely configurable UI? I have) - so I reiterate what I said in my previous post, they'll never make it easy for us to use & show media metadata from an online source.

Shame.

Exactly, 100% agree with you, word by word. In my case I use Media Portal for movies and series, the MP-TVSeries & Moving Pictures Plugins are really, really good, and the way Media Portal shows the metadata and backdrops with the StreamedMP skin are great (you can look on youtube to see what im talking about).  Please J River, consider to "copy & improve" this behaviour and you will win the title of BEST HTPC software.

[Daydream]

We have benefitted greatly from the advice of many users on every aspect of the program, including the interface. 

I'm sorry you feel otherwise.  My impression of your posts is that you are often critical, but rarely provide details we can use.  Perhaps I've overlooked something.

Since I'm keenly aware what I write and how, sometimes I ask myself too, if it doesn't come off as overtly critical for the sake of rhetoric only. However the problem is a bit more complicated, since there are... extenuating circumstances, as in this discussion going on for years, and also that I don't understand most of your strategy for Theater View (may it be just me), and the part I understand - I disagree with.

Sometimes back I came up with this mockup (post here)


and that was just on a whim, just Photoshop work, not trying to be original. That was almost 2 years ago.

Then I did Galaxy, which at the time was entirely just a play with color alone. To this day it's still the most... colorful attempt in my book, to do something with Theater View, but I'm biased for obvious reasons and since I took a break from visiting here, I might've missed something new. You guys did something in MC15 to break further skin compatibility, and although on my home system I fixed it, I never published a fix because I don't know how I fixed it. Throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks - that is what I did, 'cause that echoes well enough the documentation on Theater View skinning and the changes its engine went though.

From my experience at the time - since you wondered about specifics - I remember struggling with reused graphical elements (especially the navigational highlight) and wrapping everything in my skin files so I can distribute it. Having common settings for all skins in one file seems backwards to me, if I change that file I affect all skins, not just mine. Seemed at the time that somebody never even considered that some other people may start writing their own skins.

This may come off as just me saying so, since there is no proof - but I had planned to design a new skin - Universe - if skinning was actually developed into a complete framework. Something that would rival and surpass XBMC. I was willing to work on it 3-6 months. The occasion never presented itself so I moved on.

So yes, I'm a die-hard XBMC user now. The flipside of that is that I'm very much aware how MC can be overall better then XBMC. It just seems that you guys don't want to go there. Understandably from a certain angle, the development strategy differs significantly, but not so much from other - a skinable interface should boost the look and feel of the MC generically, regardless if it competes with XBMC or not.

The guy above was right. In MC we want something of XBMC. In XBMC we want something of MC. That is a truth outside of anybody's agenda. In XBMC stuff is designed with flavor and bigger-than-life graphical interfaces and scripts; they dream orange when they fly over Mars. In MC stuff is made with terrific database speed & flexibility, and great audio development. I know you're working and I know they're working on improving. Coincidentally I know in broad strokes some of their plans for their next version, and some for the version after that. I know nothing here. It seems too great a divide right now. But, 2-3 years back, even if in my make-a-lot-of-noise style, I asked here first.

[Daydream]

Exactly, 100% agree with you, word by word. In my case I use Media Portal for movies and series, the MP-TVSeries & Moving Pictures Plugins are really, really good, and the way Media Portal shows the metadata and backdrops with the StreamedMP skin are great (you can look on youtube to see what im talking about).  Please J River, consider to "copy & improve" this behaviour and you will win the title of BEST HTPC software.

For a split second I entertained the though of challenging you with "Media Portal is just an XBMC fork" but that would derail everything to hell . Focusing instead on the part we agree on, I'll reach for the closest Python book, and we'll see what good scrapping scripts & stuff comes out of it.

[sunfire7]

For a split second I entertained the though of challenging you with "Media Portal is just an XBMC fork" but that would derail everything to hell .

hehehe, I know XBMC is the king and Media Portal is just a great copy of it, but years back when I was trying this kind of soft, XMBC was very slow on my system (some issue with video drivers perhaps) and then I tried Media Portal and was stunned by it.

EDIT (I did understand it now)

BTW, your Galaxy skin is my default Theatre View Skin, nice work!

[flac.rules]

We have benefitted greatly from the advice of many users on every aspect of the program, including the interface. 

I'm sorry you feel otherwise.  My impression of your posts is that you are often critical, but rarely provide details we can use.  Perhaps I've overlooked something.

What kind of details do you want? I can try to provide details on what kind of interface and information I would like to see, or at least like to see possible in MC. Although maybe not worded in the nicest way, daydream has a point. We only have one theatre view, no skins(?) and the theatre view is pretty plain looking to be honest. Of course, there are people who likes that the best, but quite a lot also prefer a bit more "bing". I can post some screenshots of nice skins from other programs if you want to.

[)p(]

For music and movies the current interface is ok by me. For series its lacking in comparison to the others mentioned here. What I dont understand is that at one point so much work was done on the skinning with backdrops of theaterview and it stopped just before it became really useful for series. As far as I know we still cant associate individual series > seasons > episodes with different backdrops and other graphical elements for each step in the hierarchy. When I use mc for series I use a line up view from the series folder with random backgrounds from the series I watch. For selecting what I want to see it works good...but it just does not compare to xmbc graphical presentation and that without any manual interference for getting the artwork.

[fredphoesh]

We have benefitted greatly from the advice of many users on every aspect of the program, including the interface. 

I'm sorry you feel otherwise.  My impression of your posts is that you are often critical, but rarely provide details we can use.  Perhaps I've overlooked something.

Hello Jim
I hope all is well with you?
Let me chime in here.

I did find his posts useful, they were supporting what I was saying, that the scraping of metadata and display in Theatre mode could be improved vastly... that it should not require someone who is a script/encoding boffin to get this data available.

There are many music lovers who are searching for a great HTMP, hence all the ones out there, but the complexity of being able to get this info visible in MC will keep it appealing mostly to a small, elite niche, and drive non-techies like myself to offerings like XBMC where all i need do is find a skin I like and get most of what I want (except google images!!!)

Please be open to these comments, they are valid and I am sure there are many, many who would give MC another look if this kind of metadata was automatically available.

Tx
Mark.

[Daydream]

I can post some screenshots of nice skins from other programs if you want to.

I believe we tried the screenshot approach, a while back. Way back.

What "we" want is complete control over placeholders, we want conditional visibility, we want 10 types of transitions with x,y,z-order and degree parameters available. We want to texture anything and everything, with stacked layers and transparency. We want windows to have ID designations and configurable triggers. The things we want would make one go nuts.

Also we would NOT have to struggle with the legacy of a game platform. We would be very happy to employ current JRiver tricks where applicable to speed up/cache graphic rendering for covers, fanart and the likes. If the things we want are really scary, the ideas we would spin and brainstorm would be awesome.

What I dont understand is that at one point so much work was done on the skinning with backdrops of theaterview and it stopped just before it became really useful for series.

I have a theory, but well, it's just a theory. Why would one wanna develop a full 10-foot interface, with a lots of tricks and bells, when you can use the most often poor, non-configurable DLNA interface on whatever device you have handy? What do you think it's the key word on what I just said?

[JimH]

I did find his posts useful, they were supporting what I was saying, that the scraping of metadata and display in Theatre mode could be improved vastly.

I don't disagree.  But your suggestions are in an area that is full of possible legal problems.  I wish it were simpler.  Eventually it may be.

[fredphoesh]

I don't disagree.  But your suggestions are in an area that is full of possible legal problems.  I wish it were simpler.  Eventually it may be.

Hi Jim
Ok, I see...
What about Wikipedia, is that also "not free" because my android phone's music software, Mixzing uses wiki for album reviews and biographies, and that is great.
tx
Mark

[JimH]

Since I'm keenly aware what I write and how, sometimes I ask myself too, if it doesn't come off as overtly critical for the sake of rhetoric only. However the problem is a bit more complicated, since there are... extenuating circumstances, as in this discussion going on for years, and also that I don't understand most of your strategy for Theater View (may it be just me), and the part I understand - I disagree with.

Sometimes back I came up with this mockup (post here)


and that was just on a whim, just Photoshop work, not trying to be original. That was almost 2 years ago.

Then I did Galaxy, which at the time was entirely just a play with color alone. To this day it's still the most... colorful attempt in my book, to do something with Theater View, but I'm biased for obvious reasons and since I took a break from visiting here, I might've missed something new. You guys did something in MC15 to break further skin compatibility, and although on my home system I fixed it, I never published a fix because I don't know how I fixed it. Throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks - that is what I did, 'cause that echoes well enough the documentation on Theater View skinning and the changes its engine went though.

From my experience at the time - since you wondered about specifics - I remember struggling with reused graphical elements (especially the navigational highlight) and wrapping everything in my skin files so I can distribute it. Having common settings for all skins in one file seems backwards to me, if I change that file I affect all skins, not just mine. Seemed at the time that somebody never even considered that some other people may start writing their own skins.

This may come off as just me saying so, since there is no proof - but I had planned to design a new skin - Universe - if skinning was actually developed into a complete framework. Something that would rival and surpass XBMC. I was willing to work on it 3-6 months. The occasion never presented itself so I moved on.

So yes, I'm a die-hard XBMC user now. The flipside of that is that I'm very much aware how MC can be overall better then XBMC. It just seems that you guys don't want to go there. Understandably from a certain angle, the development strategy differs significantly, but not so much from other - a skinable interface should boost the look and feel of the MC generically, regardless if it competes with XBMC or not.

The guy above was right. In MC we want something of XBMC. In XBMC we want something of MC. That is a truth outside of anybody's agenda. In XBMC stuff is designed with flavor and bigger-than-life graphical interfaces and scripts; they dream orange when they fly over Mars. In MC stuff is made with terrific database speed & flexibility, and great audio development. I know you're working and I know they're working on improving. Coincidentally I know in broad strokes some of their plans for their next version, and some for the version after that. I know nothing here. It seems too great a divide right now. But, 2-3 years back, even if in my make-a-lot-of-noise style, I asked here first.

Thank you for the details.  I'm sorry I missed them earlier.

One problem we have with Theater View is that it must be useable with a mouse, a keyboard, a touchscreen, or a remote, so navigation was extremely difficult to get right, and I'm sure some people feel it still isn't right.

Another problem we have is that we can't abandon an interface that is used by tens of thousands of people.  We can't even change it very much.

DLNA and Theater View are completely different subjects.  Both are important to us.

The biggest problems in satisfying your needs are the legal questions.  I like my life as it is.

[bil1010105]

I don't disagree.  But your suggestions are in an area that is full of possible legal problems.  I wish it were simpler.  Eventually it may be.

I'm wondering what the "legal problems" you perceive are. So many other (both commercial and freeware) pieces of software cheerfully take metadata from free online databases for music, TV and films - why is MC different? Why would you get sued when the others don't?

Perhaps if we, as users, could understand the scope of your limitations in this we'd know more in future what is and isn't possible.

[JimH]

I'm wondering what the "legal problems" you perceive are.

It's not possible to discuss.  Sorry. Please ask any attorney why.

If you think I'm paranoid, it's because, as they say, "Even paranoids have enemies."  We had a ridiculous patent suit recently that we won, but it cost $60,000 to defend.  

Please let me be the judge of what is safe for JRiver.

[bil1010105]

Please let me be the judge of what is safe for JRiver.

Wasn't even beginning to suggest otherwise.

But given the limitations you're obviously working under, it kind of kills the whole thread off anyway, don't you think? 

For now, I think it's good to know that you would at least like it to be different. That means there is hope.

[WinoOutWest]

I've been with MC since I started ripping my first CDs to a computer.  v8 I think. Anyway wouldn't trade it and happily pay my for my upgrades but I use XBMC for all my video content.

[flac.rules]

One problem we have with Theater View is that it must be useable with a mouse, a keyboard, a touchscreen, or a remote, so navigation was extremely difficult to get right, and I'm sure some people feel it still isn't right.

Another problem we have is that we can't abandon an interface that is used by tens of thousands of people.  We can't even change it very much.

DLNA and Theater View are completely different subjects.  Both are important to us.

The biggest problems in satisfying your needs are the legal questions.  I like my life as it is.

That is a problem, but thats a problem for all simialr interfaces, and most of them handle it reasonably well, It doesn't seem like somthing that would be impossible to solve even with different skins.

Do we need to abandon the interface of today? Why limit it to only one interface?

If legeal questions is the big hurdle for obtaining meta-data it seem like the best approach would be to make a 3rd-part script/plugin/program interface with MC, and let the given program obtain the data.

[olinbg]

My two cents:

I'd like to see JRiver continue to add features/customization around the display of metadata in Theater View - for example, the artist images idea in 16 should be expanded to general "fanart".  It's the only way they can continue to be compelling on a TV in the living room.  In this sense, I agree with some of the posts here.  Some of the mockups look great.

But there are plenty of third-party solutions already for bringing outside metadata in.  We already have "plugins."

Don't forget, full "sidecar" support exists, and how many tools/systems can build an XML file?  I wrote a CL tool in two hours the other day to convert some XBMC XML files in to JRiver format.  Then I hit one "Update Library from Tags" - all done.  Maybe with enough encouragement, I can build that tool out more significantly. 

Joking aside, development time costs money.  Don't spend it on scraping websites/APIs, because you'll just have to fix it everytime something changes.  Theater View is entirely under the control of MC, so innovate there - on the TV.

*steps off soapbox*

[cncb]

MediaPortal does. And surely, this isn't really the point, is it? In MC, you're "limited" by what the View design says you can see - this is an intended and valued feature.

You can easily show whatever metadata you want for each file type in MC through "Customize file info panel".  I understand that you guys want to be able to put the info anywhere on the screen instead of just in a text list form and I agree it would be good to have that flexibility but you are not "limited" in the metadata you can display.  You can even create and display custom fields and populate them with your own "scraper".

[fredphoesh]

You can even create and display custom fields and populate them with your own "scraper".

Hi cncb and all...

The reason I started this thread was to say this info is missing from MC by default. I am not a coder/tech wiz, so will never be able/willing to do that myself... I want MC to have an option to scrape all this info and display it in Theatre view - automatically. It seems, from what Jim was saying, that there are legal issues with scraping this info. I'm baffled by this since there are so many examples where this info is scraped, but perhaps it is the difference between a paid and non paid app.

Anyhoo, for me it seems like XBMC is still going to be my "Theatre View" of choice.

Thanks for the interesting conversation,

Mark.