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[kuanj]

I am using Media 16. Selected at Digital and output format 24/192 sampling rate.
Very audible hissing sound from the back ground but if I changed the
sampling rate to 24/96 the hissing sound disappeared. What happen?

Thankson

[kuanj]

Regarding the hissing sound on playback HiRes Flac files from HDTreack at 24/192 and 24/176,
I was given th following information:-
Quote:
Some media players and DACs are not compatible with 88/24 or 176/24 formats, only with 96/24 and 192/24. Maybe this is the case with your setup, and the 176/24 files need to be downsampled to 96/24 in order to be played properly. Could you inquire with your hardware manufacturers to see if this might be the case?

Unquote:

Maybe J River can comment on this

Thanks

[Frobozz]

What DAC are you using and how is it connected (USB, TOSLINK, other)?
What playback method are you using (WASAPI, WASAPI event style, ASIO, ASIO4ALL, other)?  If doing WASAPI is it set for exclusive access mode?

[kuanj]

1. usb
2. ayre QB9
3. wasapi and set at exclusive mode
4. File downloaded from HDTrack 24/176

thanks 

[Matt]

I don't believe resampling can add a hiss, so it's likely a hardware issue.

Could you try "WASAPI - Event Style" instead of "WASAPI"?

Also, you didn't mention what happens if you perform no resampling (i.e. play at 176 KHz).

Thanks.

[kuanj]

the funny thing is that when I played at 24/96 the hissing disappeared.

[kuanj]

Forget to mention. No sampling there is no hiss. It only happen when played at either 24/176 or 24/192.

thanks

[Frobozz]

Hiss is weird.  I don't know what could cause that.  Normally digital problems will cause static like clicks or brief dropouts.  Maybe the Ayre is interpolating over errors and the artifacts of the interpolation is being heard as hiss?  I'm really grasping trying to guess what may be going on.

I'll brainstorm some troubleshooting steps and ideas:

176.4 kHz and 192 kHz requires the custom Ayre driver.  Verify that the DAC is connecting with the Ayre driver and hasn't defaulted to using the stock USB 1.1 audio driver.  The Ayre usb setup pages explain how to check the driver.  Depending on the order that devices get recognized during boot it could be possible that you're defaulting to the USB 1.1 audio driver rather than the Ayre driver.

Try different USB ports.  Make sure you aren't using a USB port that is shared with other devices on the same USB bus.  USB ports on the front of a computer may be all connected on the same bus so try ports on the back of the computer as well.  When you change ports verify that you are reconnecting with the Ayre driver.

If using a desktop computer try installing a USB card and dedicate that card to only doing USB audio for your Ayre.  USB cards are inexpensive.  Using a dedicated card for only usb audio means the Ayre won't be competing with other usb devices on the same bus.

Try a different USB cable that is USB 2.0 certified.  Maybe your cable is causing errors or problems at the higher sample rates?

Run the DPC Latency Checker to see if you have latency problems.  I'm thinking it is unlikely you have DPC latency problems because you're not having audio problems at lower sample rates like 96 kHz.  Worth a try to check though since running the latency checker program is easy.

[gtener]

I had this same problem with hi-rez files and my Sim Audio I3.3, with hiface.  I set dsp to no resampling and use wasapi-event style and this problem went away.

[kuanj]

I had reinstalled WIndows and Media Centre including the drivers for QB9.
To recap my setup is as follows:-
1. WIndows 7 Professional 64 bit
2. Media Centre 16
3. DAC: Ayre QB9
4. Using USB. 2  connection from computer to Ayre
5. The file is from HDTrack and is a 24/176.
6. DSP and output format is set to NO SAMPLING
7. The window's playback device sound is set to 24/192 (no 24/176 setting)

Whenever I hit the play button an error occured saying that I have to reset
DSP and output format.If I reset to 24/96 it played perfectly.

I used another computer (same configuration except it has a Sound card instead of a built in one)where the window's device has a 24/176 settings.
The same error message appeared i.e. to reset the DSP and output format.
If I reset to 24/96 it played perfectly.

Does it mean that either the Media center or the QB9 cannot play native 24/176 or 24/192
files when NO SAMPLING is set?

It cannot be the QB9 as the manufactured stated thaty it can play files upto 24/192.
Any comment on the MEdia Player? Or something else is not right?

Thanks

[Matt]

I can reproduce the problem with an Asus Xonar.

Native 192 files sound great at 176 or 192 with ASIO.

With WASAPI, WASAPI - Event Style, or Kernel Streaming, there's background noise.

Since it works fine with ASIO, it sort of points to a Windows audio stack problem.

I'll investigate more and report back if I learn anything else.

[Matt]

This keeps getting more bizarre.

I did this test:

File A: HDTracks WAV (24-bit, 192 KHz, 2 channels)
File B: Downconverted version of the same file using Media Center's Disk Writer (16-bit, 44.1 KHz, 2 channels)

Play the files (as one stream to rule out differences in how the sound card is opened) at 24-bit, 192 KHz, 2 channels.

The sound will be:
A plays (sounds bad) .... B plays (sounds good)

If I dump that EXACT data given to the soundcard to disk, and play it back using ASIO, the sound will be:
A plays (sounds good) .... B plays (sounds good)

So I think there is something laced into the WAV data from HRx that causes WDM drivers to add noise.  Could there be a watermark or DRM?  Since ASIO doesn't pollute the data, I can't think how else to explain it.

I found that adding a low-pass filter (using Parametric Equalizer) at 50 KHz removes the noise.

[Matt]

If you look at these HRx files with DSP Studio > Analyzer, you'll see an unnatural bump of energy around 92 KHz.  You will have to adjust the range at the bottom of Analyzer to see frequencies this high.

The high frequency energy does not move much with the music, so there is certainly some sort of additional information baked into the signal.  This additional information causes WASAPI (and other WDM-based driver methods) to play with a hiss.

We're writing to HRx to see if they have any advice.

For now, I would add a low pass filter at 75000 Hz with a 48 dB/octave slope in DSP Studio > Parametric Equalizer.

[Frobozz]

Is it only files from HDTracks that have the problem?  I tried a few 192 and 96 samples from here and they seemed to be fine to me using WASAPI (but I'm coming down with a cold so my hearing may be stuffed up).  I don't have any HDTracks 192 files to try.

I'm using an M-Audio Firewire 410.  It's possible its WDM drivers are doing things differently.

[kuanj]

Thanks for yr much needed info.
Notwithstanding on the Hiss, maybe you could comment on this (which posted earlier)
QUOTE:
I had reinstalled WIndows and Media Centre including the drivers for QB9.
To recap my setup is as follows:-
1. WIndows 7 Professional 64 bit
2. Media Centre 16
3. DAC: Ayre QB9
4. Using USB. 2  connection from computer to Ayre
5. The file is from HDTrack and is a 24/176.
6. DSP and output format is set to NO SAMPLING
7. The window's playback device sound is set to 24/192 (no 24/176 setting)

Whenever I hit the play button an error occured saying that I have to reset
DSP and output format.If I reset to 24/96 it played perfectly.

I used another computer (same configuration except it has a Sound card instead of a built in one)where the window's device has a 24/176 settings.
The same error message appeared i.e. to reset the DSP and output format.
If I reset to 24/96 it played perfectly.

Does it mean that either the Media center or the QB9 cannot play native 24/176 or 24/192
files when NO SAMPLING is set?

It cannot be the QB9 as the manufactured stated thaty it can play files upto 24/192.
Any comment on the MEdia Player? Or something else is not right?

Thanks

UNQUOTE

[mojave]

Have you followed the Ayre setup instructions for playing files over 96 Khz?

Your Ayre USB D/A converter can be configured in one of two ways. There are DIP switches on the rear panel, with one marked "Rsrv A" and "Rsrv B". "Rsrv A" is the default and selects Class One Audio, which is simple to use and will handle all music files up (and including) 96 kHz. Some users may have music files with sample rates beyond 96 kHz. Class Two Audio ("Rsrv B") is required for these and the more complex setup for this mode may be found at Beyond 96 kHz.

[Frobozz]

7. The window's playback device sound is set to 24/192 (no 24/176 setting)

The setting for the sample rate in the windows playback properties page gets ignored or bypassed when you do WASAPI exclusive mode.  When using exclusive mode the application (J River Media Center in this case) can set the sample rate to whatever it wants.  You could have the sound playback properties set to 16 bit 44.1 kHz and J River Media Center would still be able to play high res files at 192 or 176.  So don't worry that there is no 24/176 setting there and you don't need to change that setting when playing high res files.  Just leave it at its default.

However, do make sure you have the sound playback properties page set to:
"Allow applications to take exclusive control of this device"
and
"Give exclusive mode applications priority"

The details and screenshots are explained on Ayre's Vista setup support page: Windows Vista Setup

[kuanj]

Based on yr explanation on playback 24/192 files, can you confirm that
If I use a 24/192 or 24/176 files and use wasapi and "Allow applications to take exclusive control of this device" and"Give exclusive mode applications priority"
the out put from the USB to the DAC will it retain the 24/192 properties
or the 24/192 is downsampled to what ever is set by J River.

I would like to play native (24/192) from the file to the DAC.

[Frobozz]

Based on yr explanation on playback 24/192 files, can you confirm that
If I use a 24/192 or 24/176 files and use wasapi and "Allow applications to take exclusive control of this device" and"Give exclusive mode applications priority"
the out put from the USB to the DAC will it retain the 24/192 properties
or the 24/192 is downsampled to what ever is set by J River.

I would like to play native (24/192) from the file to the DAC.

Yes, if you have it set-up that way and the output format in DSP Studio is set to "No resampling" J River Media Center will play the files at the correct sample rate.  192 kHz files will get played at 192.  176 kHz files will get played at 176.  That's how it is supposed to work.  Some DACs don't automatically switch sample rates gracefully.  I don't have the Ayre so can't confirm if it switches sample rates automatically and gracefully, I assume that it does.

Also make sure you've configured your Ayre and the drivers according to the steps on Ayre's web page for "Going Beyond 96 kHz".  The Thesycon driver package Ayre has for beyond 96 kHz support also includes an ASIO driver.  So you could set J River Media Center to do ASIO instead of WASAPI.  Matt mentioned the hiss didn't happen when using ASIO.  So switching to ASIO may be a workaround fix till Matt can figure out what's causing the hiss with WASAPI mode.

[Marlene]

The hiss you people can hear at sample rates of 176.4 or higher is recorded noise mirrored back (aliased) into the audible area of the music you´re hearing. I too have this problem with the ASUS Xonar Essence ST and I have not found out yet if it´s a driver problem or because of Windows interfering with the samplerates. When using WASAPI I cannot go higher than 96 kHz - neither with JRiver nor with foobar. With 176.4/192 kHz files that contain signals up to 88.2/96 kHz my ASUS will only display frequencies up to 40 kHz, the rest above is gone - probably because of resampling (I measured this). If it is a resampler then it´s so badly implemented that it aliases any noise present above 40 kHz back into the frequency spectrum below. If there is nothing above 40 kHz then you won´t hear anything at all. The resampling does still happen though. If I use ASIO the problem disappears, probably because the internal Windows audio engine is avoided.

I don´t assume that the Ayre has a badly programmed driver so one should use ASIO instead of WASAPI. Furthermore, the Ayre is certified for samplerates up to 192 kHz and the tests I´ve read about it proove that it natively can play back those samplerates without resampling them. Still, the ASUS can be configured to use several samplerates. It will use these samplerates regardless what the samplerate of the audiofile is - if I recall my last measurements correctly, even with ASIO (not sure about it though). I don´t know if the Ayre has a similar setting for samplerates. Can they be configured?

I guess it´s Windows but I don´t know why it interferes with the samplerates when using exclusive access via WASAPI to the device driver. I always was under the impression that this access was designed to avoid exactly this effect.

[kuanj]

Interesting to note that you mentioned ' the Ayre is certified for samplerates up to 192 kHz '
Is there any reconized authority to prove what you have mentioned. I would like to find out.

thanks

[Vincent Kars]

Pretty dark

Ayre QB9 is a USB class audio 2 device so it supports 24/192
As Win doesn’t support USB audio class 2, Ayre supplies a third party driver (TheSycon)
It might be a driver issue.
However if this can be replicated on a ASUS (a PCI card), it is not very likely to be a USB driver issue.

WASAPI exclusive bypasses the Win audio engine.
This engine takes care of the mixing and dithers the output.
As far as I know, it doesn’t do any resampling.
The programmer has to feed the Win audio engine with the right sample rate.
Makes one wonder if this is a matter of resampling (shouldn’t), who is doing this?
But it is probably more complex.

kuanj,
You might present your case to Ayre too, Charles Hansen is very responsive in general.

[Marlene]

Interesting to note that you mentioned ' the Ayre is certified for samplerates up to 192 kHz '
Is there any reconized authority to prove what you have mentioned. I would like to find out.

thanks

Ayre themselves are presenting it as certified: look here: Ayre specs.

The magazine that tested it is a magazine here in Germany called "Stereoplay". And it seems that my memory was mistaken: according to Stereoplay it only accepts samplerates up to 96 kHz. Here is the test - albeit in German. Perhaps the google translator will help... Perhaps Ayre has updated the firmware or the hardware of this device. But I don´t know.

EDIT: Now I know; Ayre updated it in the summer of 2010 to be able to play back 192 kHz.

[Vincent Kars]

Correct, the first model was USB audio class 1 so limited to 24/96
From mid 2010 on they use a USB 2 receiver capable of highspeed so 24/192 is supported

[Marlene]

Correct, the first model was USB audio class 1 so limited to 24/96
From mid 2010 on they use a USB 2 receiver capable of highspeed so 24/192 is supported

Oh, I just wrote the same   Thank you!

EDIT: but now I´ve got a question... beside the ASUS card I also have an external E-MU 0202 USB. That one came out in 2006, uses USB as its interface and always had a maximum samplerate of 192 kHz which I confirmed myself via numerous recordings. It recorded like that on Windows XP and on Windows 7. Did E-MU program their own driver to circumvent these "audio classes"?

[Vincent Kars]

Correct
USB audio class 1 is tied to the USB 1 spec.
This means full speed so 12 Mhz, 1024 bit packages send with a 1 ms interval.
2 channel 24/96 fits in, 2 ch 24/176 doesn’t.
If you want more, you had to write your own driver using USB 2 high speed (480 Mhz).
Typical pro-companies like EMU can afford to do so.

In 2009 the USB audio class 2 was finalized.
It uses high speed so now > 24/96 is not a problem.
RME does 30 ch over USB 2

From  mid 2010 on there is a native mode driver in OSX and Linux.
Win doesn’t have a class 2 driver but some companies developed one.

A bit more detail can be found here: http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/HW/USB_Audio.htm

[kuanj]

thanks Vincent.