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[JustinChase]

So, a few months ago, a user would select "Automatic" under the settings for Direct show, and it might or might not have worked.

Red October has emerged triumphantly from this opportunity.

I can't help but feeling like RO is really just Automatic, but it now 'just works'.  I understand the branding of it, and it seems to be doing well.  it has a nice ring to it.  "Red October" sounds more exciting than "Automatic", but it's less descriptive.  However, it really is what Automatic wanted to be all along.

I'm wondering if the design of it; the selection methodology, might be better if it went back to the way Automatic is/was designed.

It's still there, as an option in the direct shows option area, where we still add filters as necessary.

What I'm thinking is that instead of the Automatic, it should now read Red October or RO High Quality, and if one doesn't select any additional filters, you get basic Red October, as you do now.  If you simply add a filter from below, it gets added to the chain, as it does now with RO w/additional, but you wouldn't need to select 'RO with additional', just adding the filters has this same effect, but fewer choices to select from.  If it's determined that all 4 options are still needed, with the "with additional filters" showing the selection boxes, like it does now, that would work too.

I just think this would clean up the option dialog, by not selecting it above, from 4 choices, then going down below and selecting "JRiver video engine (using DirectShow filters)", then selecting the other filters.

just doing away with the choice at the top, and making it the choice instead of the "JRiver video engine (using DirectShow filters)" would clean that up some.

in fact, in looking at it more, Everything under General Video Settings could be easily brought down into the "Decoders, Renderers, & More ..." area below.

the DirectShow selection method is handled as described above
the Default Video Renderer option is now redundant and should be removed altogether.
bitstreaming could be the same small window just down in this same area.  the current drop down boxes are much larger than necessary, so they could be shortened to allow this without feeling cramped.

I mocked this up as a suggestion.  there's still some options that need added, but the big stuff is all here, I think...



any thoughts?

[JustinChase]

As I think about it more, it would be good/useful if one selects J River DirectShow player, that the file type "Video" or "Default" could be added to the file type list.  I suspect one would only use the JR DS player option if they wanted to use a filter that had not already been whitelisted for use with RO.

This Video/Default file type is what one would use to set the 'default filter set' every file type would use by default, unless individually modified.

This would allow one to try the new JC Super Splitter or JC Reverse Renderer when they become available for all file types without having to physically change it for every file.  Change the video/default type options, and every file type uses this now, unless previously changed to something else.

for example, if mkv file type is set to Automatic for everything but Renderer, which is customized to madVR; the it will use whatever the default selections are, but will use madVR to render, no matter what the default is.

In fact, maybe "Automatic" should be changed to read "Default" for these drop down boxes, maybe not, just thinking it's more descriptive/correct, but either would work.

Also, would it be possible to pair down the list of filters to choose from?  By my count I have 87 options from which to choose (see below), which is probably about 80 too many, and most/all of those couldn't even be forced into a graph, so it makes little sense to me to show them.  I'm guessing they are simply a list of every possible .ax found on the system, but maybe this isn't the best selection criteria.

I'm guessing that many/most of these 87 options are from common programs, and can be easily blacklisted, eliminating most from showing for most people.  At this point most people will only use Red October, so this is not a big deal, but still, it should be easy to clean up.

Finally, if Red October is chosen, the available filters in the drop downs should certainly be limited to only whitelisted filters.  I don't see any advantage to showing me options that can't be used/won't work.

What I get in the "Other Filters" drop down box...

[jmone]

I can't help but feeling like RO is really just Automatic, but it now 'just works'.

It good that that is how it seems to a user  , but it actually quite a difference between the two:
- The Old Automatic just used the std Windows Direct Show engine select what it wanted to.  So you had to find, download, register, and configure the filters.  You may of then had to also play with the filter priorities and may have had issues with the Windows Direct Show engine still selecting "bad", "inappropriate" or just "sub-optimal" choices.
- RO: does not register a single filter on you system, leaving the whole thing as it is.  What it does is download updates of the filters to be used, then programmatically calls and configures them during playback.  So while the code of the filter is the same, the Std Direct Show Graph building is bypassed, infact as the filters are not even registered, MS Direct Show is unaware of the versions that MC uses.  This allows MC to use logic like.... If HW Accel is checked then use LAVCUVID/DXVA first for certain formats else fall back to FFDSHOW for Software Decoding, and if HQ is on then turn on YADIF and use madVR instead of EVR....

[JustinChase]

It good that that is how it seems to a user  , but it actually quite a difference between the two:
- The Old Automatic just used the std Windows Direct Show engine select what it wanted to.  So you had to find, download, register, and configure the filters.  You may of then had to also play with the filter priorities and may have had issues with the Windows Direct Show engine still selecting "bad", "inappropriate" or just "sub-optimal" choices.
- RO: does not register a single filter on you system, leaving the whole thing as it is.  What it does is download updates of the filters to be used, then programmatically calls and configures them during playback.  So while the code of the filter is the same, the Std Direct Show Graph building is bypassed, infact as the filters are not even registered, MS Direct Show is unaware of the versions that MC uses.  This allows MC to use logic like.... If HW Accel is checked then use LAVCUVID/DXVA first for certain formats else fall back to FFDSHOW for Software Decoding, and if HQ is on then turn on YADIF and use madVR instead of EVR....

Oh yes, I understand that it's quite different.  i've been hooked on this stuff since we discussed how to get MKV's working months ago.

It wasn't a question of "are they calling 'Automatic' Red October now?"  What I meant is that Red October is what I always expected Automatic to be.  Automatic never was.  Red October really is.  there is no Automatic now, it's just Red October, with or without additional filters; or DirectShow standalone.

My suggestion is to use the 'option selection stuff' for automatic, which I thought was a mostly good layout, but have it USE Red October terminology.

In other words "Red October is the new 'Automatic'" in that RO automatically works.

I hoped the rest of my post made more sense

I was actually looking for feedback on the streamlined option dialog screenshot/layout/idea I mocked up and tried to explain

[Alex B]

When "fully automatic RO" and "RO & additional filters" are separate you can easily switch between these two modes while preserving the configurations for various formats in "RO & additional filters".

Regarding white listing, my opinion has been, that it is quite unnecessary in the "RO & additional filters" mode. It prevents from trying any new filters (perhaps newly introduced/designed) in the "RO & additional filters" mode before the JRiver developers white list them. If necessary, it could be better to use only a black list of the known bad filters that cause serious trouble or are incompatible by design. Then these could also be excluded from the displayed/available filters in the RO+ mode.

Of course, if "RO & additional filters" can also select a filter outside from the internal and the manually selected filters whenever these preferred filters do not work with a certain file format, white listing is needed. (I don't know how this works.)

In any case white listing is (or should be) disabled in the merit based mode, so it does not prevent that mode from going wrong if the "bad" filters have high merits.

[Matt]

The white list is needed because Red October needs to know a little bit about a filter to use it properly.

We've added any filters than have been requested, and are happy to add more.  Just let us know.

[JustinChase]

The white list is needed because Red October needs to know a little bit about a filter to use it properly.

We've added any filters than have been requested, and are happy to add more.  Just let us know.

that makes sense.  would it be possible to only expose the whitelisted filters in the RO plus modes?

would it be possible to black list the bulk of the 87 filters that show up in my "regular DS" selection window?  I don't expect to be using "Gargle" or "Smart Tee" any time soon

[Matt]

that makes sense.  would it be possible to only expose the whitelisted filters in the RO plus modes?

Yes, this is on the to-do list, along with a refresh of how to select custom filters.

However, it shouldn't be too common for a user to need to pick different filters.  Subtitles and video acceleration were the main reasons before, and now both of those are handled nicely by Red October.

[JustinChase]

Agreed, it won't be needed often, thanks for confirming.  I hope the layout/selection mockup/idea will be helpful when the time comes.